7 ms·

> Relative to Other Countries, US Labor and Healthcare Policies are a Perfect Storm for Pandemics > Zero universal guaranteed paid sick leave [1] The United S

by Fnoord 7y ago

> Relative to Other Countries, US Labor and Healthcare Policies are a Perfect Storm for Pandemics > Zero universal guaranteed paid sick leave [1] The United States of America in the same list as India, North Korea, South Korea, Somalia, Angola, Liberia, and Guinea-Bissau. Some of these countries are poor or low income. The USA isn't one of them though. I'd be ashamed of my country. In The Netherlands, an entire [large] province (North Brabant) has been ordered to stay home if they have anything resembling illness. People are asked to work from home. Children can't go to school. Still, working from home is better than nothing. Also, some people are in quarantine. The people who have COVID-19 but otherwise don't have it severe can stay home, in quarantine, instead of in the hospital. One thing I wish I knew way earlier is that COVID-19 victims rarely suffer from a runny nose. I recently got it from Our World In Data [2], it was linked here on HN. I did not read about this in our local media, sadly. [1] https://www.worldpolicycenter.org/policies/for-how-long-are-workers-guaranteed-paid-sick-leave https://www.worldpolicycenter.org/policies/for-how-long-are-... [2] https://ourworldindata.org/uploads/2020/03/Coronavirus-Symptoms-%E2%80%93-WHO-joint-mission-1.png https://ourworldindata.org/uploads/2020/03/Coronavirus-Sympt...

TheAdamAndChe 7y ago
Yes, a dry cough, sore throat, and a temperature over 101°F are the most common symptoms of the virus. It shouldn't affect the sinuses too much.
- ajross 7y ago
  Sore throat is not a known common symptom to COVID-19. The standard list being propagated by public health organizations[1] is: fever (nothing about 101F specifically that I'm aware of), cough, and breathing trouble (e.g. shortness of breath, pneumonia, chest tightness). Upper respiratory symptoms like sore throat are significantly less common with COVID-19 than they are with most viral infections, though obviously the instance isn't going to be zero. Obviously to some extent this is just pedantry, but at times like this it's really important that we get these things right consistently. If all you have is a sore throat you are very unlikely to have COVID-19 given what we know right now. [1] Here's the Mayo clinic's: https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/coronavirus/symptoms-causes/syc-20479963 https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/coronavirus/s...
  - codeulike 7y ago
    The WHO report has sort throat listed in about 13% of cases, so yes not very common. As of 20 February 2020 and based on 55924 laboratory confirmed cases, typical signs and symptoms include:fever (87.9%), dry cough (67.7%), fatigue (38.1%), sputum production (33.4%), shortness of breath (18.6%), sore throat (13.9%), headache (13.6%), myalgiaor arthralgia (14.8%), chills(11.4%), nausea or vomiting (5.0%), nasal congestion (4.8%), diarrhea (3.7%), and hemoptysis (0.9%), and conjunctival congestion (0.8%) Page 12 https://www.who.int/docs/default-source/coronaviruse/who-china-joint-mission-on-covid-19-final-report.pdf https://www.who.int/docs/default-source/coronaviruse/who-chi...
house9-2 7y ago
> I'd be ashamed of my country. We are.
- gpanders 7y ago
  Maybe I'm naive or overly optimistic, but I suspect that COVID-19 presents a big enough scare to motivate legislators and voters to fix these problems in the near future.
  - mtsr 7y ago
    In a zero-based budgetting system, maybe. But given that any opponents will just present such a change as a huge additional expense and very much big government, do you really expect it to get much support?
    - jurassic 7y ago
      When the first of the 535 members of Congress succumb to the virus, I think it will be pretty motivational for the survivors to enact policy change. The median age of serving Senators is ~66, so if a non-trivial proportion are infected I think we can expect a lot of deaths.
    - wyldfire 7y ago
      Some incarnation of "paid sick leave" is likely to emerge [1], though I'm a little pessimistic -- probably would have a sunset clause. POTUS tiptoed around this yesterday: "We're also going to be talking about hourly wage earners getting help so that they can be in a position where they're not going to ever miss a paycheck." IIUC "Paid sick leave" maybe via tax credit or some other subsidy. [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/10/upshot/coronavirus-paid-sick-leave.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/10/upshot/coronavirus-paid-s...
  - rolph 7y ago
    considering most legislators are in a high risk group i would think so.
  - 7y ago
allovernow 7y ago
What proportion of our population actually works without paid sick leave? What proportion in countries with guaranteed sick leave is pressured into coming to work anyway by social stigma? Not everything needs to be legislated. Especially not at a federal level.
- Brain_Thief 7y ago
  At the risk of being confrontational, I have to question whether you have ever had a low-paying job in the USA or if you have even taken the time to look at the typical "benefits" and work requirements attached to such jobs. The absolute and unquestionable reality for millions of workers in the USA (food industry, customer service, transportation, and many others) is that they have zero paid sick leave and are also subject to work requirements that allow for their termination with little to no warning for any form of work absence. It follows logically that there is a great deal of people who work while sick and are afraid of missing work for any reason - they have minimal rights, live paycheck to paycheck, can barely afford healthcare, and have almost zero job security. This is the environment that rabidly pro-business regulation and the erosion of worker protections has created; assertions that the hideously benighted situation of low-paid workers in the USA will magically "self-resolve" without strong legislation go against the entire history of the labor rights movement and basic common sense.
  - allovernow 7y ago
    >The absolute and unquestionable reality for millions of workers in the USA (food industry, customer service, transportation, and many others) is that they have zero paid sick leave and are also subject to work requirements I don't doubt that - but I'm asking for numbers because I also know that some proportion of supervisors even in shitty jobs are understanding enough to offer sick days. And just as in this current system some people are understanding enough to give people time off, under legislation there will also be some proportion of people who ostensibly are doing nothing illegal but indirectly pressure employees not to take time off - the same way people often accumulate vacation time from the same pressures! That's why I'm legitimately asking for numbers. Because neither case is going to be black or white. Laws are hard do undo and frequently have unintended consequences. Some things are better solved through social reform, if they are necessary at all. It's like the oft quoted idea that millions of Americans are struggling working multiple jobs to make ends meet and this requires some form of price floor - but if you look at official BLS reports, less than a couple percent (can't remember exactly) are actually in this state. For decisions which affect millions of people, numbers are everything.
at-fates-hands 7y ago
FYI I work for UHG. They're currently spending tens of millions on infrastructure so that their entire workforce can be remote if this gets any worse. If people self-quarantine, they won't lose sick or vacation days and can work remotely. Several states are proposing bills to protect people who are in hourly or contract roles where if they do self-quarantine, their jobs are covered and they will still be paid. I feel like companies and the states are able to do more for their people than the government can. I've never been a huge fan of UHG, but they're putting their money where their mouth is this time and protecting their employees and working to contain the spread of the virus within the company.
- Fnoord 7y ago
  That's great to hear! At times like these, it makes sense that we society protect the weak from dying. Its also we as society who carry the burden of a less prosperous economy (on the short term). Today I read in the news that 4% of all employees of hospitals in North Brabant, The Netherlands have COVID-19.
roenxi 7y ago
The pandemic hasn't even officially started yet; you're making a lot of assumptions about how the situation will unfold that are nowhere near justified. Pieces of paper saying that everything should be alright are one of many things that do not have an impact on the virus. The US has officially done better than most countries with a sick leave policy, although the real state of affairs we won't know for a while and is likely to be horrible. From afar, the biggest problem looks like the CDCs iron clad grip on test kit certification slowing the response by a month. This compounds a general view of mine that the American healthcare system is crippled by existing regulation that links insurance to employment. Linking emergency response funding to employment is another terrible idea that will hardly assist the situation. What everyone needed was a disaster preparedness plan. Forcing companies to pay money that they are probably not going to have in a pandemic is a great way to obscure from people how much planning they need to do. Companies don't have magically deep pockets.
- CydeWeys 7y ago
  > The US has officially done better than most countries with a sick leave policy This isn't true though. We're simply behind them on the infection timeline, thanks solely to geographical proximity and luck. We're several weeks behind Italy, Korea, Japan, and Iran in terms of how long the virus has been spreading here, and months behind China. You can't compare us now to them now.
  - roenxi 7y ago
    The US is one plane flight from China and Italy is one plane flight from China. And their testing has reportedly been weak compared to many countries; they might be in a more advanced state of trouble than it appears. But the major point here I am happy to concede; it is far to early to start comparing how the US is doing with how everyone else is doing.
    - asdfman123 7y ago
      The flights don't matter anymore. It's already here, and it's clear we won't start doing anything about it until the hospitals start overflowing, so whether that point is in a month or three doesn't seem that much different to me. I hate to sound so bleak, but I believe it is mostly accurate.
45ure 7y ago
>Also, some people are in quarantine. A day late and a dollar short, breaking news in the last half-hour or so suggests a one-mile containment zone is being setup in New York (New Rochelle), National Guard troops have been sent. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-51826317 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-51826317
- asdfman123 7y ago
  Damn it. I intellectually knew it was only a matter of time before it hits hard in the US, but it's different seeing it happen. Next, it will be my city...
khawkins 7y ago
> Zero universal guaranteed paid sick leave This is a false statement. There are 12 states which require paid sick leave, amounting to 30% of the population [1]. Federal employees are guaranteed paid sick leave days [2]. According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, 61% of workers have paid sick leave, 78% have paid vacations, (80%/90% in large employers with 500 or more workers) [3]. That whole section is just political garbage. There's plenty of reasons to believe that businesses will take precautions themselves to limit the spread of the virus internally, which includes offering paid sick leave to encourage people to be extra careful. [1] https://www.ncsl.org/research/labor-and-employment/paid-sick-leave.aspx https://www.ncsl.org/research/labor-and-employment/paid-sick... [2] https://www.opm.gov/policy-data-oversight/pay-leave/leave-administration/fact-sheets/sick-leave-general-information/ https://www.opm.gov/policy-data-oversight/pay-leave/leave-ad... [3] https://www.bls.gov/ncs/ebs/benefits/2009/ownership/private/table21a.pdf https://www.bls.gov/ncs/ebs/benefits/2009/ownership/private/...
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- wpietri 7y ago
  It is a literally true statement. Universal means covering everybody. That some slices of the population have it in no way contradicts that. Indeed, most of your numbers prove that sick leave in the US is not universal.
  - ortusdux 7y ago
    Oddly, in this instance, "Zero" seems like the wrong description for something that is binary.
    - khawkins 7y ago
      It's not "oddly", it's deliberately deceptive and trying to exaggerate the problem to advance a political narrative.
    - wpietri 7y ago
mrec 7y ago
> One thing I wish I knew way earlier is that COVID-19 victims rarely suffer from a runny nose Definitely worth knowing, especially with hay fever season just about to kick off.
sjy 7y ago
I’m a little skeptical of that sick leave data source, since it claims that Australia offers 6 months or more “paid leave for personal health needs through employers and the social security system,” while Australian unions are campaigning for government support for 3.3 million casual workers with no sick leave: https://www.sbs.com.au/news/unions-call-for-quarantined-casual-workers-without-sick-leave-to-be-compensated https://www.sbs.com.au/news/unions-call-for-quarantined-casu...
- Fnoord 7y ago
  Keyword is casual workers which I suppose is the same as interim and flex workers. These have different rights [1] than people who have a contract. Same with self-employed. [1] This has its pros and cons but that is beyond the scope of the point.
  - sjy 7y ago
    That's right. It's not beyond the point because in both countries, these millions of casual retail and hospitality workers are the source of the risk discussed in the article (they won't self-quarantine because it would cost them their income). It would be wrong to look at the chart you linked, which shows Australia and Western Europe as green and the USA as orange, and conclude that the USA is unique among developed economies in having a casualised workforce and "zero universal guaranteed paid sick leave."
    - Fnoord 7y ago
      Lies, damn lies, and... What I meant with "beyond the scope of the point" is that the discussion of the pros and cons of such system (of casual workers / interim) i a tangent I'm not going on about. In this context it'd be proper to include an amount/percentage of people who have such a job versus those who have a normal job (with permanent contract). I'm also interested in differentiation between different states, but then again there might also be differences in say Germany's provinces. On another note, the USA is not unique among developed economies in this context; South Korea is also a developed economy.

by Fnoord 7y ago

TheAdamAndChe 7y ago

Yes, a dry cough, sore throat, and a temperature over 101°F are the most common symptoms of the virus. It shouldn't affect the sinuses too much.

ajross 7y ago
Sore throat is not a known common symptom to COVID-19. The standard list being propagated by public health organizations[1] is: fever (nothing about 101F specifically that I'm aware of), cough, and breathing trouble (e.g. shortness of breath, pneumonia, chest tightness). Upper respiratory symptoms like sore throat are significantly less common with COVID-19 than they are with most viral infections, though obviously the instance isn't going to be zero. Obviously to some extent this is just pedantry, but at times like this it's really important that we get these things right consistently. If all you have is a sore throat you are very unlikely to have COVID-19 given what we know right now. [1] Here's the Mayo clinic's: https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/coronavirus/symptoms-causes/syc-20479963 https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/coronavirus/s...
- codeulike 7y ago
  The WHO report has sort throat listed in about 13% of cases, so yes not very common. As of 20 February 2020 and based on 55924 laboratory confirmed cases, typical signs and symptoms include:fever (87.9%), dry cough (67.7%), fatigue (38.1%), sputum production (33.4%), shortness of breath (18.6%), sore throat (13.9%), headache (13.6%), myalgiaor arthralgia (14.8%), chills(11.4%), nausea or vomiting (5.0%), nasal congestion (4.8%), diarrhea (3.7%), and hemoptysis (0.9%), and conjunctival congestion (0.8%) Page 12 https://www.who.int/docs/default-source/coronaviruse/who-china-joint-mission-on-covid-19-final-report.pdf https://www.who.int/docs/default-source/coronaviruse/who-chi...

house9-2 7y ago

> I'd be ashamed of my country. We are.

gpanders 7y ago
Maybe I'm naive or overly optimistic, but I suspect that COVID-19 presents a big enough scare to motivate legislators and voters to fix these problems in the near future.
- mtsr 7y ago
  In a zero-based budgetting system, maybe. But given that any opponents will just present such a change as a huge additional expense and very much big government, do you really expect it to get much support?
  - jurassic 7y ago
    When the first of the 535 members of Congress succumb to the virus, I think it will be pretty motivational for the survivors to enact policy change. The median age of serving Senators is ~66, so if a non-trivial proportion are infected I think we can expect a lot of deaths.
  - wyldfire 7y ago
    Some incarnation of "paid sick leave" is likely to emerge [1], though I'm a little pessimistic -- probably would have a sunset clause. POTUS tiptoed around this yesterday: "We're also going to be talking about hourly wage earners getting help so that they can be in a position where they're not going to ever miss a paycheck." IIUC "Paid sick leave" maybe via tax credit or some other subsidy. [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/10/upshot/coronavirus-paid-sick-leave.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/10/upshot/coronavirus-paid-s...
- rolph 7y ago
  considering most legislators are in a high risk group i would think so.
- 7y ago

allovernow 7y ago

What proportion of our population actually works without paid sick leave? What proportion in countries with guaranteed sick leave is pressured into coming to work anyway by social stigma? Not everything needs to be legislated. Especially not at a federal level.

Brain_Thief 7y ago
At the risk of being confrontational, I have to question whether you have ever had a low-paying job in the USA or if you have even taken the time to look at the typical "benefits" and work requirements attached to such jobs. The absolute and unquestionable reality for millions of workers in the USA (food industry, customer service, transportation, and many others) is that they have zero paid sick leave and are also subject to work requirements that allow for their termination with little to no warning for any form of work absence. It follows logically that there is a great deal of people who work while sick and are afraid of missing work for any reason - they have minimal rights, live paycheck to paycheck, can barely afford healthcare, and have almost zero job security. This is the environment that rabidly pro-business regulation and the erosion of worker protections has created; assertions that the hideously benighted situation of low-paid workers in the USA will magically "self-resolve" without strong legislation go against the entire history of the labor rights movement and basic common sense.
- allovernow 7y ago
  >The absolute and unquestionable reality for millions of workers in the USA (food industry, customer service, transportation, and many others) is that they have zero paid sick leave and are also subject to work requirements I don't doubt that - but I'm asking for numbers because I also know that some proportion of supervisors even in shitty jobs are understanding enough to offer sick days. And just as in this current system some people are understanding enough to give people time off, under legislation there will also be some proportion of people who ostensibly are doing nothing illegal but indirectly pressure employees not to take time off - the same way people often accumulate vacation time from the same pressures! That's why I'm legitimately asking for numbers. Because neither case is going to be black or white. Laws are hard do undo and frequently have unintended consequences. Some things are better solved through social reform, if they are necessary at all. It's like the oft quoted idea that millions of Americans are struggling working multiple jobs to make ends meet and this requires some form of price floor - but if you look at official BLS reports, less than a couple percent (can't remember exactly) are actually in this state. For decisions which affect millions of people, numbers are everything.

at-fates-hands 7y ago

FYI I work for UHG. They're currently spending tens of millions on infrastructure so that their entire workforce can be remote if this gets any worse. If people self-quarantine, they won't lose sick or vacation days and can work remotely. Several states are proposing bills to protect people who are in hourly or contract roles where if they do self-quarantine, their jobs are covered and they will still be paid. I feel like companies and the states are able to do more for their people than the government can. I've never been a huge fan of UHG, but they're putting their money where their mouth is this time and protecting their employees and working to contain the spread of the virus within the company.

Fnoord 7y ago
That's great to hear! At times like these, it makes sense that we society protect the weak from dying. Its also we as society who carry the burden of a less prosperous economy (on the short term). Today I read in the news that 4% of all employees of hospitals in North Brabant, The Netherlands have COVID-19.

roenxi 7y ago

The pandemic hasn't even officially started yet; you're making a lot of assumptions about how the situation will unfold that are nowhere near justified. Pieces of paper saying that everything should be alright are one of many things that do not have an impact on the virus. The US has officially done better than most countries with a sick leave policy, although the real state of affairs we won't know for a while and is likely to be horrible. From afar, the biggest problem looks like the CDCs iron clad grip on test kit certification slowing the response by a month. This compounds a general view of mine that the American healthcare system is crippled by existing regulation that links insurance to employment. Linking emergency response funding to employment is another terrible idea that will hardly assist the situation. What everyone needed was a disaster preparedness plan. Forcing companies to pay money that they are probably not going to have in a pandemic is a great way to obscure from people how much planning they need to do. Companies don't have magically deep pockets.

CydeWeys 7y ago
> The US has officially done better than most countries with a sick leave policy This isn't true though. We're simply behind them on the infection timeline, thanks solely to geographical proximity and luck. We're several weeks behind Italy, Korea, Japan, and Iran in terms of how long the virus has been spreading here, and months behind China. You can't compare us now to them now.
- roenxi 7y ago
  The US is one plane flight from China and Italy is one plane flight from China. And their testing has reportedly been weak compared to many countries; they might be in a more advanced state of trouble than it appears. But the major point here I am happy to concede; it is far to early to start comparing how the US is doing with how everyone else is doing.
  - asdfman123 7y ago
    The flights don't matter anymore. It's already here, and it's clear we won't start doing anything about it until the hospitals start overflowing, so whether that point is in a month or three doesn't seem that much different to me. I hate to sound so bleak, but I believe it is mostly accurate.

45ure 7y ago

>Also, some people are in quarantine. A day late and a dollar short, breaking news in the last half-hour or so suggests a one-mile containment zone is being setup in New York (New Rochelle), National Guard troops have been sent. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-51826317 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-51826317

asdfman123 7y ago
Damn it. I intellectually knew it was only a matter of time before it hits hard in the US, but it's different seeing it happen. Next, it will be my city...

khawkins 7y ago

> Zero universal guaranteed paid sick leave This is a false statement. There are 12 states which require paid sick leave, amounting to 30% of the population [1]. Federal employees are guaranteed paid sick leave days [2]. According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, 61% of workers have paid sick leave, 78% have paid vacations, (80%/90% in large employers with 500 or more workers) [3]. That whole section is just political garbage. There's plenty of reasons to believe that businesses will take precautions themselves to limit the spread of the virus internally, which includes offering paid sick leave to encourage people to be extra careful. [1] https://www.ncsl.org/research/labor-and-employment/paid-sick-leave.aspx https://www.ncsl.org/research/labor-and-employment/paid-sick... [2] https://www.opm.gov/policy-data-oversight/pay-leave/leave-administration/fact-sheets/sick-leave-general-information/ https://www.opm.gov/policy-data-oversight/pay-leave/leave-ad... [3] https://www.bls.gov/ncs/ebs/benefits/2009/ownership/private/table21a.pdf https://www.bls.gov/ncs/ebs/benefits/2009/ownership/private/...

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
wpietri 7y ago
It is a literally true statement. Universal means covering everybody. That some slices of the population have it in no way contradicts that. Indeed, most of your numbers prove that sick leave in the US is not universal.
- ortusdux 7y ago
  Oddly, in this instance, "Zero" seems like the wrong description for something that is binary.
  - khawkins 7y ago
    It's not "oddly", it's deliberately deceptive and trying to exaggerate the problem to advance a political narrative.
  - wpietri 7y ago

mrec 7y ago

> One thing I wish I knew way earlier is that COVID-19 victims rarely suffer from a runny nose Definitely worth knowing, especially with hay fever season just about to kick off.

sjy 7y ago

I’m a little skeptical of that sick leave data source, since it claims that Australia offers 6 months or more “paid leave for personal health needs through employers and the social security system,” while Australian unions are campaigning for government support for 3.3 million casual workers with no sick leave: https://www.sbs.com.au/news/unions-call-for-quarantined-casual-workers-without-sick-leave-to-be-compensated https://www.sbs.com.au/news/unions-call-for-quarantined-casu...

Fnoord 7y ago
Keyword is casual workers which I suppose is the same as interim and flex workers. These have different rights [1] than people who have a contract. Same with self-employed. [1] This has its pros and cons but that is beyond the scope of the point.
- sjy 7y ago
  That's right. It's not beyond the point because in both countries, these millions of casual retail and hospitality workers are the source of the risk discussed in the article (they won't self-quarantine because it would cost them their income). It would be wrong to look at the chart you linked, which shows Australia and Western Europe as green and the USA as orange, and conclude that the USA is unique among developed economies in having a casualised workforce and "zero universal guaranteed paid sick leave."
  - Fnoord 7y ago
    Lies, damn lies, and... What I meant with "beyond the scope of the point" is that the discussion of the pros and cons of such system (of casual workers / interim) i a tangent I'm not going on about. In this context it'd be proper to include an amount/percentage of people who have such a job versus those who have a normal job (with permanent contract). I'm also interested in differentiation between different states, but then again there might also be differences in say Germany's provinces. On another note, the USA is not unique among developed economies in this context; South Korea is also a developed economy.