5 ms·

I don't understand people who write things like this. If you're unhappy leave, if you think the corporate culture is wrong, either participate in fixing it, or

I don't understand people who write things like this. If you're unhappy leave, if you think the corporate culture is wrong, either participate in fixing it, or get out. I honestly can't stand people who self righteously sound the alarm about how they can see all of the things wrong with everybody else. It sounds especially childish when you are making so much money.

herenorthere 7y ago
I get the impression that he views his declining of severance package as analogous to Colin Kaepernick kneeling during the national anthem, or some other righteous form of protest. But you're right it doesn't carry the same weight given his quarter-mil. per year salary
makkesk8 7y ago
I agree to some extent.. only the point being here from what I gather is that they deliver sub par software, defraud their customers and just straight out lie. This is very toxic and can be very depressing and when I see posts like this I salute them because everyone who reads this will think twice before working for that company.
metalgearsolid 7y ago
I have a similar story, but it was my first programming job, and it wasn't a cake-walk to get it, so for myself I simply couldn't imagine doing much better. And to be honest, after quitting, I haven't. I'm at least healthy and happy again. But you're right, honestly the only thing I really learned about that experience was I should have just quit sooner. That's really all there is to it.
Ecstatify 7y ago
If no one calls these companies out nothing will ever change, maybe he still has friends in the company he'd like to help out, nothing will light a fire under a companies ass more than appearing on the front page of HackerNews for the wrong reasons. If I was applying to this company I would like to have this insight to make my mind up, it's another data point, doesn't mean it's 100% correct but that's up for me to decide. For example on glassdoor this company has a 4.4/5 rating. I know for a fact my company posts fake reviews on glassdoor, where are we supposed to get real insights about companies from?
- hobofan 7y ago
  To me, the writings of a disgruntled ex-employee who is on a vendetta against the company, is just as worthless as those fake Glassdoor reviews. They have written at least 5 rambling articles with the sole purpose of tearing down Pivotal, which at some point starts to be more of a reflection of the author than the company.
  - TeMPOraL 7y ago
    You say disgruntled employee, I say it sounds like a problem company. I just read this and I can say, I worked with a company that was roughly this but multiplied by 0.25. Main product that never worked but sold as if it did? Check. Weird investor schemes? Check. Sales people lying about the product, or the customers (as if the company had them, instead of a string of noncommittal POCs)? Check. Sales people having no clue what the product did, and just selling the bullshit they invented? Check. CEO rotations? Check. Someone getting entangled in what looked like a different version of Nigerian Prince scam? Check. I can 100% believe everything the author said, because I've seen a lite version of it. And if all you know about a company comes from their website, press, conferences and their salesmen, you'll never realize how rotten things are on the inside.
    - hobofan 7y ago
      > I just read this and I can say, I worked with a company that was roughly this but multiplied by 0.25. Who hasn't? You will find the points of that bullshit bingo in any company with some degree on severity, even more so in a young startup. A good portion of the article is the author realizing that stock options are shit when the company isn't doing as well as they claimed. (Welcome to the club!) Another portion is the author realizing that they don't like working on an open source project with a BDFL that they perceive to be resistant to input. And then they complain about the sales people doing a good job, because they are selling what makes the company money instead of support contracts for what they work on. In the end, if I were to consider working at the company, nothing of that would tell me if it were a good idea or not.
jcims 7y ago
I think this is just a more extreme example of a common psychological phenotype that I've encountered somewhat regularly over 25 years in industry.
- yashap 7y ago
  Agreed, this is an extreme version, but you’ll find a decent number of developers at most companies with a toxic viewpoint along these lines.
HarryHirsch 7y ago
Rachel had something about fixing corporate culture recently (hint: you can't), and sometimes really you can't leave. Some are shackled to their jobs through their visa, others because of healthcare needs (their health insurance has favourable terms, and they need to care for a family member), and others because of the nature of the industry (university faculty comes to mind, especially post-2008). The fact that you are paid does nothing about the ennui. You clearly never held a no-show job before.
- gist 7y ago
  Insider club here? Who is 'Rachel'?
  - GuiA 7y ago
    Blogger commonly linked to on HN, domain name is rachelbythebay.com
    - gist 7y ago
      I guessed that is who it was but I you know she is not exactly 'PG'. And her name isn't unique enough like 'Elon'. I read comments on another blog whereby one commenter thinks he is a guy who can use his girlfriend's name as if everyone should know that is who he is talking about like he is on a first name basis with the crowd.
      - jldugger 7y ago
        Well, if you figured it out then maybe Rachel is unique enough =)
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - thisiszilff 7y ago
    For your enjoyment: https://rachelbythebay.com/w/ https://rachelbythebay.com/w/
thoraway1010 7y ago
Checking I'm on my throaway. I followed exactly this practice - immediately left crappy places -> kept strong clients. Took myself from $40K/year to $500K/year (not tech BTW so this is I think a bit harder than in tech). Here is the kicker - some of the terrible places I left later called and specifically requested me. I literally burnt NO bridges. I would just apologize and say I didn't think I could meet their standards / expectations at that time and wanted to be prompt about letting them know so they could find someone new. And the reality - they are pretty friendly departures if done early - no time for crap to build up. Quick things I don't recommend off the top of my head * Having multiple bosses on a project * Having responsibility but no authority * Being asked to deliver stuff with no data / dependent on too many others you don't have control over. Things I didn't mind. * Bosses with high standards. If they were willing to pay, I'd be willing to live up to those. Even if I thought they went way too far with it cost / benefit side. I learned a lot from these folks. Some examples. Me: You could pay someone $20/hr to do this work. Them: We want you to do it. Me: I charge $200. Them: OK. Me: I'm busy, I can't help. Them: What would it cost to help. Me: 150% my normal rate and I'd have to work weekends only - can you open the office on the weekends and have support staff in on the weekend to help me? Them: Yes. At the time I thought these folks were nuts, but they both went on to do really really well (and in one case I turned out to be absolutely pivotal in that). * Working onsite - remote work is hard to see But the bottom line - some consulting clients are not worth having, just move on. I never ever complained. I would make a few suggestions, give it my best shot, then moved on quickly if needed. In all but one case the tough ones imploded later. One case (that called me back) actually took my suggestions on my way out (you might consider restructuring department X like follows) and got 10x bigger. Funny thing - govt work is very interesting. You can see how a Shadow IT setup comes into play if you work for govt.
- jay_wild 7y ago
  What was the time frame on your $40k -> $500k jump, if you don't mind my asking?
  - ta999999171 7y ago
    Not OP, but, guessing less than 2 years.
watwut 7y ago
If people are not allowed to talk and read about what they found to be wrong, they will never figure out how to fix it. And they will never figure out what real problems are and what is fluff. First step toward being able to participate in fixing anything is being able to reflect on what is going on and being able to learn from what others in similar situation did or did not do.

herenorthere 7y ago

I get the impression that he views his declining of severance package as analogous to Colin Kaepernick kneeling during the national anthem, or some other righteous form of protest. But you're right it doesn't carry the same weight given his quarter-mil. per year salary

makkesk8 7y ago

I agree to some extent.. only the point being here from what I gather is that they deliver sub par software, defraud their customers and just straight out lie. This is very toxic and can be very depressing and when I see posts like this I salute them because everyone who reads this will think twice before working for that company.

metalgearsolid 7y ago

I have a similar story, but it was my first programming job, and it wasn't a cake-walk to get it, so for myself I simply couldn't imagine doing much better. And to be honest, after quitting, I haven't. I'm at least healthy and happy again. But you're right, honestly the only thing I really learned about that experience was I should have just quit sooner. That's really all there is to it.

Ecstatify 7y ago

If no one calls these companies out nothing will ever change, maybe he still has friends in the company he'd like to help out, nothing will light a fire under a companies ass more than appearing on the front page of HackerNews for the wrong reasons. If I was applying to this company I would like to have this insight to make my mind up, it's another data point, doesn't mean it's 100% correct but that's up for me to decide. For example on glassdoor this company has a 4.4/5 rating. I know for a fact my company posts fake reviews on glassdoor, where are we supposed to get real insights about companies from?

hobofan 7y ago
To me, the writings of a disgruntled ex-employee who is on a vendetta against the company, is just as worthless as those fake Glassdoor reviews. They have written at least 5 rambling articles with the sole purpose of tearing down Pivotal, which at some point starts to be more of a reflection of the author than the company.
- TeMPOraL 7y ago
  You say disgruntled employee, I say it sounds like a problem company. I just read this and I can say, I worked with a company that was roughly this but multiplied by 0.25. Main product that never worked but sold as if it did? Check. Weird investor schemes? Check. Sales people lying about the product, or the customers (as if the company had them, instead of a string of noncommittal POCs)? Check. Sales people having no clue what the product did, and just selling the bullshit they invented? Check. CEO rotations? Check. Someone getting entangled in what looked like a different version of Nigerian Prince scam? Check. I can 100% believe everything the author said, because I've seen a lite version of it. And if all you know about a company comes from their website, press, conferences and their salesmen, you'll never realize how rotten things are on the inside.
  - hobofan 7y ago
    > I just read this and I can say, I worked with a company that was roughly this but multiplied by 0.25. Who hasn't? You will find the points of that bullshit bingo in any company with some degree on severity, even more so in a young startup. A good portion of the article is the author realizing that stock options are shit when the company isn't doing as well as they claimed. (Welcome to the club!) Another portion is the author realizing that they don't like working on an open source project with a BDFL that they perceive to be resistant to input. And then they complain about the sales people doing a good job, because they are selling what makes the company money instead of support contracts for what they work on. In the end, if I were to consider working at the company, nothing of that would tell me if it were a good idea or not.

jcims 7y ago

I think this is just a more extreme example of a common psychological phenotype that I've encountered somewhat regularly over 25 years in industry.

yashap 7y ago
Agreed, this is an extreme version, but you’ll find a decent number of developers at most companies with a toxic viewpoint along these lines.

HarryHirsch 7y ago

Rachel had something about fixing corporate culture recently (hint: you can't), and sometimes really you can't leave. Some are shackled to their jobs through their visa, others because of healthcare needs (their health insurance has favourable terms, and they need to care for a family member), and others because of the nature of the industry (university faculty comes to mind, especially post-2008). The fact that you are paid does nothing about the ennui. You clearly never held a no-show job before.

gist 7y ago
Insider club here? Who is 'Rachel'?
- GuiA 7y ago
  Blogger commonly linked to on HN, domain name is rachelbythebay.com
  - gist 7y ago
    I guessed that is who it was but I you know she is not exactly 'PG'. And her name isn't unique enough like 'Elon'. I read comments on another blog whereby one commenter thinks he is a guy who can use his girlfriend's name as if everyone should know that is who he is talking about like he is on a first name basis with the crowd.
    - jldugger 7y ago
      Well, if you figured it out then maybe Rachel is unique enough =)
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- thisiszilff 7y ago
  For your enjoyment: https://rachelbythebay.com/w/ https://rachelbythebay.com/w/

thoraway1010 7y ago

Checking I'm on my throaway. I followed exactly this practice - immediately left crappy places -> kept strong clients. Took myself from $40K/year to $500K/year (not tech BTW so this is I think a bit harder than in tech). Here is the kicker - some of the terrible places I left later called and specifically requested me. I literally burnt NO bridges. I would just apologize and say I didn't think I could meet their standards / expectations at that time and wanted to be prompt about letting them know so they could find someone new. And the reality - they are pretty friendly departures if done early - no time for crap to build up. Quick things I don't recommend off the top of my head * Having multiple bosses on a project * Having responsibility but no authority * Being asked to deliver stuff with no data / dependent on too many others you don't have control over. Things I didn't mind. * Bosses with high standards. If they were willing to pay, I'd be willing to live up to those. Even if I thought they went way too far with it cost / benefit side. I learned a lot from these folks. Some examples. Me: You could pay someone $20/hr to do this work. Them: We want you to do it. Me: I charge $200. Them: OK. Me: I'm busy, I can't help. Them: What would it cost to help. Me: 150% my normal rate and I'd have to work weekends only - can you open the office on the weekends and have support staff in on the weekend to help me? Them: Yes. At the time I thought these folks were nuts, but they both went on to do really really well (and in one case I turned out to be absolutely pivotal in that). * Working onsite - remote work is hard to see But the bottom line - some consulting clients are not worth having, just move on. I never ever complained. I would make a few suggestions, give it my best shot, then moved on quickly if needed. In all but one case the tough ones imploded later. One case (that called me back) actually took my suggestions on my way out (you might consider restructuring department X like follows) and got 10x bigger. Funny thing - govt work is very interesting. You can see how a Shadow IT setup comes into play if you work for govt.

jay_wild 7y ago
What was the time frame on your $40k -> $500k jump, if you don't mind my asking?
- ta999999171 7y ago
  Not OP, but, guessing less than 2 years.

watwut 7y ago

If people are not allowed to talk and read about what they found to be wrong, they will never figure out how to fix it. And they will never figure out what real problems are and what is fluff. First step toward being able to participate in fixing anything is being able to reflect on what is going on and being able to learn from what others in similar situation did or did not do.