3 ms·

From the user’s point of view, the file is readable and writable by any app if full disk access is granted, and the user is able to grant full disk access if th

by oefrha 7y ago

From the user’s point of view, the file is readable and writable by any app if full disk access is granted, and the user is able to grant full disk access if they so chooses (assuming an admin account here). So the file is indeed readable and writable from the user’s point of view. The presentation is accurate. You can argue about whether requiring full disk access is warranted, but you’re arguing the wrong thing.

dmitriid 7y ago
From the user's point of view the file isn't accessible in any way except through Finder. If it had read/write permissions as Finder shows it, all apps would be able to, you know, read and write the file.
- oefrha 7y ago
  This is just completely wrong, and I don’t want to explain Unix permissions vs actual access control again which has shown up more than once in the thread. Plus, you know what, sandboxed apps basically can’t read or write anything not created by them without explicit permissions. The standard flow is app tries to access file/folder, dialog pops up asking if you want to allow access, or if you want to allow full disk access (the full disk access part might be opt in for app developers, but app developers with legit reasons to access certain protected stuff do tend to encourage users to do this). Your apparent lack of knowledge of this (not pleasant but at least functioning) flow makes me wonder if you’re even a macOS user. Maybe just a Linux user who came to score some points?
  - dmitriid 7y ago
    > This is just completely wrong, and I don’t want to explain Unix permissions vs actual access control again which has shown up more than once in the thread. If it wrong, then it's bot the job of HN threads to explain this to the user, but of the OS. > Your apparent lack of knowledge of this (not pleasant but at least functioning) flow makes me wonder if you’re even a macOS user. Ah. Ad hominem attacks, how nice. I am a MacOS user. And I'm sick and tired of Catalina giving no human and humane ways of dealing with the mess it creates out of permissions. Where do you expect a MacOS user to find out whether a random file is accessible to an app? Especially given how arbitrary these restrictions often are: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22518229 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22518229
    - oefrha 7y ago
      > Where do you expect a MacOS user to find out whether a random file is accessible to an app? As I said: when a dialog pops up. Btw, that’s not an ad hominem attack, it’s reasonable doubt about your experience with the subject matter given what you have expressed and left out so far. If you’re not even a user then it’s apparently pointless to explain further. Anyway, it’s still pointless to explain further when you know what you’re talking about yet still insist on conflating concepts, but stop pretending it was somehow personal.
      - dmitriid 7y ago
        > As I said: when a dialog pops up. So, I have to run every potential app on every potential file to see if the dialog pops up? You call that discoverability? BTW as recently as a three weeks back I ran IntelliJ Rider on a folder that I created (not a system folder) and it started up in read-only mode. No dialogs, nothing. Catalina randomly decided that a random application didn't have write permissions to user-created folder. Thank god I am a MacOS user, so I figured I should give the app access. BTW. Is it "Developer Tools" access, "Full Access" or "Full disk access" and what is the difference? > when you know what you’re talking about yet still insist on conflating concepts I couldn't give two craps about "conflating concepts". It is the OS that conflates these concepts with poorly thought out permissions system with hardcoded filenames in its kernel, and gives me, the user, zero indication on whether something is accessible, readable, writeable or not. Except for a useless popup dialog which might or might not appear and gives zero indication on what specific permissions are lacking. But yeah, "the user is at fault and the system behaves correctly". No, it doesn't.
        oefrha 7y ago
        > I couldn't give two craps about "conflating concepts". Good for you. Next time maybe say it upfront when replying to a comment that has demonstrated a clear interest in not conflating the concepts and instead be annoyed about the thing that is actually annoying, not some tangent.
        7y ago

by oefrha 7y ago

dmitriid 7y ago

From the user's point of view the file isn't accessible in any way except through Finder. If it had read/write permissions as Finder shows it, all apps would be able to, you know, read and write the file.

oefrha 7y ago
This is just completely wrong, and I don’t want to explain Unix permissions vs actual access control again which has shown up more than once in the thread. Plus, you know what, sandboxed apps basically can’t read or write anything not created by them without explicit permissions. The standard flow is app tries to access file/folder, dialog pops up asking if you want to allow access, or if you want to allow full disk access (the full disk access part might be opt in for app developers, but app developers with legit reasons to access certain protected stuff do tend to encourage users to do this). Your apparent lack of knowledge of this (not pleasant but at least functioning) flow makes me wonder if you’re even a macOS user. Maybe just a Linux user who came to score some points?
- dmitriid 7y ago
  > This is just completely wrong, and I don’t want to explain Unix permissions vs actual access control again which has shown up more than once in the thread. If it wrong, then it's bot the job of HN threads to explain this to the user, but of the OS. > Your apparent lack of knowledge of this (not pleasant but at least functioning) flow makes me wonder if you’re even a macOS user. Ah. Ad hominem attacks, how nice. I am a MacOS user. And I'm sick and tired of Catalina giving no human and humane ways of dealing with the mess it creates out of permissions. Where do you expect a MacOS user to find out whether a random file is accessible to an app? Especially given how arbitrary these restrictions often are: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22518229 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22518229
  - oefrha 7y ago
    > Where do you expect a MacOS user to find out whether a random file is accessible to an app? As I said: when a dialog pops up. Btw, that’s not an ad hominem attack, it’s reasonable doubt about your experience with the subject matter given what you have expressed and left out so far. If you’re not even a user then it’s apparently pointless to explain further. Anyway, it’s still pointless to explain further when you know what you’re talking about yet still insist on conflating concepts, but stop pretending it was somehow personal.
    - dmitriid 7y ago
      > As I said: when a dialog pops up. So, I have to run every potential app on every potential file to see if the dialog pops up? You call that discoverability? BTW as recently as a three weeks back I ran IntelliJ Rider on a folder that I created (not a system folder) and it started up in read-only mode. No dialogs, nothing. Catalina randomly decided that a random application didn't have write permissions to user-created folder. Thank god I am a MacOS user, so I figured I should give the app access. BTW. Is it "Developer Tools" access, "Full Access" or "Full disk access" and what is the difference? > when you know what you’re talking about yet still insist on conflating concepts I couldn't give two craps about "conflating concepts". It is the OS that conflates these concepts with poorly thought out permissions system with hardcoded filenames in its kernel, and gives me, the user, zero indication on whether something is accessible, readable, writeable or not. Except for a useless popup dialog which might or might not appear and gives zero indication on what specific permissions are lacking. But yeah, "the user is at fault and the system behaves correctly". No, it doesn't.
      - oefrha 7y ago
        > I couldn't give two craps about "conflating concepts". Good for you. Next time maybe say it upfront when replying to a comment that has demonstrated a clear interest in not conflating the concepts and instead be annoyed about the thing that is actually annoying, not some tangent.
        7y ago