4 ms·

Finder isn't some third-party tool released before this kernel change. Why should it not know about those plugged holes?

by owl57 7y ago

saagarjha 7y ago
How should it present this information?
- dmitriid 7y ago
  How about: not from Finder's point of view? There is no such thing as Finder's point of view. It must show info from the currently logged in user's point of view.
  - saagarjha 7y ago
    The entire point is that the user permissions are not accurate for an arbitrary app because of sandboxing. This is like yelling at readelf for "deceiving you" because the binary is slid around by layout randomization to somewhere else.
    - dmitriid 7y ago
      https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22518215 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22518215
  - oefrha 7y ago
    From the user’s point of view, the file is readable and writable by any app if full disk access is granted, and the user is able to grant full disk access if they so chooses (assuming an admin account here). So the file is indeed readable and writable from the user’s point of view. The presentation is accurate. You can argue about whether requiring full disk access is warranted, but you’re arguing the wrong thing.
    - dmitriid 7y ago
      From the user's point of view the file isn't accessible in any way except through Finder. If it had read/write permissions as Finder shows it, all apps would be able to, you know, read and write the file.
      - oefrha 7y ago
        This is just completely wrong, and I don’t want to explain Unix permissions vs actual access control again which has shown up more than once in the thread. Plus, you know what, sandboxed apps basically can’t read or write anything not created by them without explicit permissions. The standard flow is app tries to access file/folder, dialog pops up asking if you want to allow access, or if you want to allow full disk access (the full disk access part might be opt in for app developers, but app developers with legit reasons to access certain protected stuff do tend to encourage users to do this). Your apparent lack of knowledge of this (not pleasant but at least functioning) flow makes me wonder if you’re even a macOS user. Maybe just a Linux user who came to score some points?
        dmitriid 7y ago
        > This is just completely wrong, and I don’t want to explain Unix permissions vs actual access control again which has shown up more than once in the thread. If it wrong, then it's bot the job of HN threads to explain this to the user, but of the OS. > Your apparent lack of knowledge of this (not pleasant but at least functioning) flow makes me wonder if you’re even a macOS user. Ah. Ad hominem attacks, how nice. I am a MacOS user. And I'm sick and tired of Catalina giving no human and humane ways of dealing with the mess it creates out of permissions. Where do you expect a MacOS user to find out whether a random file is accessible to an app? Especially given how arbitrary these restrictions often are: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22518229 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22518229
        oefrha 7y ago
        > Where do you expect a MacOS user to find out whether a random file is accessible to an app? As I said: when a dialog pops up. Btw, that’s not an ad hominem attack, it’s reasonable doubt about your experience with the subject matter given what you have expressed and left out so far. If you’re not even a user then it’s apparently pointless to explain further. Anyway, it’s still pointless to explain further when you know what you’re talking about yet still insist on conflating concepts, but stop pretending it was somehow personal.
  - cowsandmilk 7y ago
    The logged in user does have permission to read and write the file. And the ability to grant applications the ability to read and write the file.
    - dmitriid 7y ago
      https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22518215 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22518215
- bryanrasmussen 7y ago
  How About: Sharing and Permissions There is limited application access to this file. You have the right to give permissions to applications to access the file - click here for more information.

Finder isn't some third-party tool released before this kernel change. Why should it not know about those plugged holes?

by owl57 7y ago

Finder isn't some third-party tool released before this kernel change. Why should it not know about those plugged holes?

saagarjha 7y ago

How should it present this information?

dmitriid 7y ago
How about: not from Finder's point of view? There is no such thing as Finder's point of view. It must show info from the currently logged in user's point of view.
- saagarjha 7y ago
  The entire point is that the user permissions are not accurate for an arbitrary app because of sandboxing. This is like yelling at readelf for "deceiving you" because the binary is slid around by layout randomization to somewhere else.
  - dmitriid 7y ago
    https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22518215 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22518215
- oefrha 7y ago
  From the user’s point of view, the file is readable and writable by any app if full disk access is granted, and the user is able to grant full disk access if they so chooses (assuming an admin account here). So the file is indeed readable and writable from the user’s point of view. The presentation is accurate. You can argue about whether requiring full disk access is warranted, but you’re arguing the wrong thing.
  - dmitriid 7y ago
    From the user's point of view the file isn't accessible in any way except through Finder. If it had read/write permissions as Finder shows it, all apps would be able to, you know, read and write the file.
    - oefrha 7y ago
      This is just completely wrong, and I don’t want to explain Unix permissions vs actual access control again which has shown up more than once in the thread. Plus, you know what, sandboxed apps basically can’t read or write anything not created by them without explicit permissions. The standard flow is app tries to access file/folder, dialog pops up asking if you want to allow access, or if you want to allow full disk access (the full disk access part might be opt in for app developers, but app developers with legit reasons to access certain protected stuff do tend to encourage users to do this). Your apparent lack of knowledge of this (not pleasant but at least functioning) flow makes me wonder if you’re even a macOS user. Maybe just a Linux user who came to score some points?
      - dmitriid 7y ago
        > This is just completely wrong, and I don’t want to explain Unix permissions vs actual access control again which has shown up more than once in the thread. If it wrong, then it's bot the job of HN threads to explain this to the user, but of the OS. > Your apparent lack of knowledge of this (not pleasant but at least functioning) flow makes me wonder if you’re even a macOS user. Ah. Ad hominem attacks, how nice. I am a MacOS user. And I'm sick and tired of Catalina giving no human and humane ways of dealing with the mess it creates out of permissions. Where do you expect a MacOS user to find out whether a random file is accessible to an app? Especially given how arbitrary these restrictions often are: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22518229 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22518229
        oefrha 7y ago
        > Where do you expect a MacOS user to find out whether a random file is accessible to an app? As I said: when a dialog pops up. Btw, that’s not an ad hominem attack, it’s reasonable doubt about your experience with the subject matter given what you have expressed and left out so far. If you’re not even a user then it’s apparently pointless to explain further. Anyway, it’s still pointless to explain further when you know what you’re talking about yet still insist on conflating concepts, but stop pretending it was somehow personal.
- cowsandmilk 7y ago
  The logged in user does have permission to read and write the file. And the ability to grant applications the ability to read and write the file.
  - dmitriid 7y ago
    https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22518215 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22518215
bryanrasmussen 7y ago
How About: Sharing and Permissions There is limited application access to this file. You have the right to give permissions to applications to access the file - click here for more information.