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What data are you talking about? They're explicitly doing this to prevent the ad companies (Google and Facebook) from collecting data. What data is Apple colle

by hugi 7y ago

What data are you talking about? They're explicitly doing this to prevent the ad companies (Google and Facebook) from collecting data. What data is Apple collecting?

cageface 7y ago
My concern with Apple isn't about collecting data it's about removing choices. I can't sideload apps on my iPhone, even if they might be essential to fighting a totalitarian government (HKMaps). I can't use any browser but Safari on what is supposedly my phone. I can't buy books through the Kindle app without paying Apple a 30% cut. Honestly this stuff scares me more than the data collection that Google does, for example, because at least I have some control there. And Apple's privacy controls are kind of moot anyway if I use iCloud and all my data is just one subpoena away from anybody that wants it.
- scarface74 7y ago
  Well HKMaps is a bad example. You can get the same functionality from a web browser. If you don’t want to be locked into a vendors platform - create a web app. Does Amazon allow third party book sellers on their Kindle devices? Again, the open web to the rescue. I can go to Amazon’s store from my browser and buy books. In fact, I use the Kindle web reader on my iPad when reading books about AWS, because the Kindle app doesn’t allow embedded web links to Amazon (even AWS Informational links).
  - cageface 7y ago
    You can't get the same functionality in a website because Apple has deliberately not supported some web standards like push notifications. Again you can make the argument that this is to protect users but it also just happens to protect their native app ecosystem.
    - floatingatoll 7y ago
      Thankfully they don’t support web push notifications. What a horrendous standard that’s turned out to be.
      - scarface74 7y ago
        I made a mistake and turned on for Tom’s Hardware - a site that’s I thought was credible. They started spamming me immediately with advertising. Push notifications only came in handy to keep the battery draining Slack “application” off of my computer.
      - the_gipsy 7y ago
        Why would it be any better with apps? I had to uninstall many apps because there was no option to deactivate marketing PNs.
        floatingatoll 7y ago
        All major mobile platforms let you disable all notifications from apps, sane as website push. Why were you forced to uninstall them to do so?
        the_gipsy 7y ago
        Because I do want relevant PNs, like a chat message for marketplaces or billing issues, whatever. I couldn't disable something like "offers", "news", "marketing BS". When I have to turn off PNs completely for an app, there is no reason to have that app installed anymore, I might just use the website.
        floatingatoll 7y ago
        Ah, so you didn’t “have to” uninstall apps, you simply chose to. I misunderstood your comment and retract my earlier “forced to” question, apologies.
  - manigandham 7y ago
    How is it a bad example when people are using it to fight and evade an oppressive government as we speak? They did make a web version but it lacks the offline and privacy features of the native app. Apple removing the iOS app is a perfect example of why these big companies can't be trusted with ultimate control.
    - scarface74 7y ago
      Local storage has been supported by mobile Safari since day one for offline usage. How much more privacy did they get by an app that gets information from the internet than a website?
      - manigandham 7y ago
        There are massive limits on local storage on Safari. It's nowhere near what you can do with an app. Also apps aren't limited to using HTTPS connections with unsecured DNS.
        scarface74 7y ago
        The best I can tell is that you can safely use around 50Mb for local storage. https://love2dev.com/blog/what-is-the-service-worker-cache-storage-limit/ https://love2dev.com/blog/what-is-the-service-worker-cache-s...
- mcphage 7y ago
  > I can't use any browser but Safari on what is supposedly my phone. You can use one of a number of browsers on you phone. The browser developers are the ones who are constrained, having to use the WebKit rendering engine—but then, it’s not their phone.
  - 43920 7y ago
    Does the distinction actually matter though? By constraining what developers can provide, you're automatically constraining what users can use, so I don't see how it makes a difference.
    - millstone 7y ago
      Non-WebKit based iOS browsers are zero, and non-Chromium based Android browsers rounds to zero. So I don't think the distinction is very important, if it exists. It's silly to cast the mobile browser wars in abstract terms, as if JoesOwnWebBrowser is going to be a thing tomorrow. It's Google and Apple, full stop. Google is leveraging their titanic web properties and mobile ecosystem control to push Chrome. Apple is using their control over the iOS ecosystem to retain Safari. The choice is whether the mobile web has two relevant players, or one.
      - jeswin 7y ago
        There are other browsers with significant market share on Android, such as UC Browser. The reason they have chosen Chromium as the base is because it is easier for them to build on it, and not because Google enforced it as a policy on Android. That's an important distinction. Apple's monopolistic practices prevent better software from succeeding on phones, and I'm disappointed that Apple's anti competitive behavior is excused. Note: UC Browser is a huge privacy threat and please ask friends and family to uninstall it. But the point still stands.
        millstone 7y ago
        I honestly can't tell if "Android enables better software like UC Browser which is terrible and please ask your friends and family to uninstall it" is satire or in earnest.
- neotek 7y ago
  There are multiple ways to sideload apps on iOS, with and without a paid developer account, and without having to jailbreak.
  - saagarjha 7y ago
    With a fairly annoying set of limitations if you don't have a paid account or won't use a jailbreak.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- i386 7y ago
  > I can't sideload apps on my iPhone Then don’t buy one. Highly competitive market where you can buy others where this is possible.
  - saagarjha 7y ago
    Shutting down any conversation of "I'd like to be able to do this with my iPhone" with a condescending "don't buy it, duh" disregards any of the reasons why people might want to buy iPhones (some of which were mentioned in this very thread) and is, IMO, a lazy argument.
  - kimsant 7y ago
    worst argument ever. Don't use Google, don't use Facebook, don't buy apple, and finally if you don't like NSA traking your calls leave America, this like it is, just leave if you don't like it... well, nop
  - m-p-3 7y ago
    So privacy or freedom, pick one.
- Betelgeuse90 7y ago
  Just a sidetone about HKMaps - as far as I know it was always available on the mobile web.

by hugi 7y ago

What data are you talking about? They're explicitly doing this to prevent the ad companies (Google and Facebook) from collecting data. What data is Apple collecting?

cageface 7y ago

My concern with Apple isn't about collecting data it's about removing choices. I can't sideload apps on my iPhone, even if they might be essential to fighting a totalitarian government (HKMaps). I can't use any browser but Safari on what is supposedly my phone. I can't buy books through the Kindle app without paying Apple a 30% cut. Honestly this stuff scares me more than the data collection that Google does, for example, because at least I have some control there. And Apple's privacy controls are kind of moot anyway if I use iCloud and all my data is just one subpoena away from anybody that wants it.

scarface74 7y ago
Well HKMaps is a bad example. You can get the same functionality from a web browser. If you don’t want to be locked into a vendors platform - create a web app. Does Amazon allow third party book sellers on their Kindle devices? Again, the open web to the rescue. I can go to Amazon’s store from my browser and buy books. In fact, I use the Kindle web reader on my iPad when reading books about AWS, because the Kindle app doesn’t allow embedded web links to Amazon (even AWS Informational links).
- cageface 7y ago
  You can't get the same functionality in a website because Apple has deliberately not supported some web standards like push notifications. Again you can make the argument that this is to protect users but it also just happens to protect their native app ecosystem.
  - floatingatoll 7y ago
    Thankfully they don’t support web push notifications. What a horrendous standard that’s turned out to be.
    - scarface74 7y ago
      I made a mistake and turned on for Tom’s Hardware - a site that’s I thought was credible. They started spamming me immediately with advertising. Push notifications only came in handy to keep the battery draining Slack “application” off of my computer.
    - the_gipsy 7y ago
      Why would it be any better with apps? I had to uninstall many apps because there was no option to deactivate marketing PNs.
      - floatingatoll 7y ago
        All major mobile platforms let you disable all notifications from apps, sane as website push. Why were you forced to uninstall them to do so?
        the_gipsy 7y ago
        Because I do want relevant PNs, like a chat message for marketplaces or billing issues, whatever. I couldn't disable something like "offers", "news", "marketing BS". When I have to turn off PNs completely for an app, there is no reason to have that app installed anymore, I might just use the website.
        floatingatoll 7y ago
        Ah, so you didn’t “have to” uninstall apps, you simply chose to. I misunderstood your comment and retract my earlier “forced to” question, apologies.
- manigandham 7y ago
  How is it a bad example when people are using it to fight and evade an oppressive government as we speak? They did make a web version but it lacks the offline and privacy features of the native app. Apple removing the iOS app is a perfect example of why these big companies can't be trusted with ultimate control.
  - scarface74 7y ago
    Local storage has been supported by mobile Safari since day one for offline usage. How much more privacy did they get by an app that gets information from the internet than a website?
    - manigandham 7y ago
      There are massive limits on local storage on Safari. It's nowhere near what you can do with an app. Also apps aren't limited to using HTTPS connections with unsecured DNS.
      - scarface74 7y ago
        The best I can tell is that you can safely use around 50Mb for local storage. https://love2dev.com/blog/what-is-the-service-worker-cache-storage-limit/ https://love2dev.com/blog/what-is-the-service-worker-cache-s...
mcphage 7y ago
> I can't use any browser but Safari on what is supposedly my phone. You can use one of a number of browsers on you phone. The browser developers are the ones who are constrained, having to use the WebKit rendering engine—but then, it’s not their phone.
- 43920 7y ago
  Does the distinction actually matter though? By constraining what developers can provide, you're automatically constraining what users can use, so I don't see how it makes a difference.
  - millstone 7y ago
    Non-WebKit based iOS browsers are zero, and non-Chromium based Android browsers rounds to zero. So I don't think the distinction is very important, if it exists. It's silly to cast the mobile browser wars in abstract terms, as if JoesOwnWebBrowser is going to be a thing tomorrow. It's Google and Apple, full stop. Google is leveraging their titanic web properties and mobile ecosystem control to push Chrome. Apple is using their control over the iOS ecosystem to retain Safari. The choice is whether the mobile web has two relevant players, or one.
    - jeswin 7y ago
      There are other browsers with significant market share on Android, such as UC Browser. The reason they have chosen Chromium as the base is because it is easier for them to build on it, and not because Google enforced it as a policy on Android. That's an important distinction. Apple's monopolistic practices prevent better software from succeeding on phones, and I'm disappointed that Apple's anti competitive behavior is excused. Note: UC Browser is a huge privacy threat and please ask friends and family to uninstall it. But the point still stands.
      - millstone 7y ago
        I honestly can't tell if "Android enables better software like UC Browser which is terrible and please ask your friends and family to uninstall it" is satire or in earnest.
neotek 7y ago
There are multiple ways to sideload apps on iOS, with and without a paid developer account, and without having to jailbreak.
- saagarjha 7y ago
  With a fairly annoying set of limitations if you don't have a paid account or won't use a jailbreak.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
i386 7y ago
> I can't sideload apps on my iPhone Then don’t buy one. Highly competitive market where you can buy others where this is possible.
- saagarjha 7y ago
  Shutting down any conversation of "I'd like to be able to do this with my iPhone" with a condescending "don't buy it, duh" disregards any of the reasons why people might want to buy iPhones (some of which were mentioned in this very thread) and is, IMO, a lazy argument.
- kimsant 7y ago
  worst argument ever. Don't use Google, don't use Facebook, don't buy apple, and finally if you don't like NSA traking your calls leave America, this like it is, just leave if you don't like it... well, nop
- m-p-3 7y ago
  So privacy or freedom, pick one.
Betelgeuse90 7y ago
Just a sidetone about HKMaps - as far as I know it was always available on the mobile web.