9 ms·

Psychedelic therapy has a sexual abuse problem

93 points by laurex 7y ago

7373737373 7y ago
The problem with restricting (psychedelic) therapy to supervised, one-on-one clinical settings is that these places by their nature cannot provide experiences, intimate connections and understanding that are necessary for self-discovery, -healing and -improvement. The transactional institution that doctors, therapists and mental health hospitals represent can only provide a foundation and safe environment for such opportunities. Talking to people who have or had similar life experiences, who truly know how the pain one suffers feels and what it means to live that way from the inside is of the highest value.
- anigbrowl 7y ago
  Completely agree. While I'm very, very much in favor of psychedelics as therapy aid, the idea of therapist-guided trips is extremely offputting. At best it will Disney-fy the whole experience, at worst create far more problems.
  - travisjungroth 7y ago
    Just for an alternate perspective, there's a therapist I'd completely trust to be my guide. I certainly wouldn't expect a Disney experience.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
- ketamine__ 7y ago
  Taking psychedelics in a therapy setting is even more risky than off-label prescription itself. The patient may think there is little risk but there is a chance of making the condition worse.
  - pas 7y ago
    Sources? Data? Evidence? Studies? Citations please. This is a very strong claim! And I'm saying this because my gut feeling sort of agrees with you, but so far MAPS' FDA approved studies doesn't seem indicate that there's this risk factor. Who knows what will happen if it hits mainstream though. (As with any other therapies, at first everything is magical, because truly motivated people practice them, then it just becomes something done by certified professionals, then it just becomes a big section in a regular textbook.) That said, there is very good chance that even if it's risky, it has at least the potential to do real work. ( https://slatestarcodex.com/2019/11/26/mental-mountains/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2019/11/26/mental-mountains/ )
    - ketamine__ 7y ago
      Commentary: https://www.mdedge.com/psychiatry/article/24216/depression/d-cycloserine-ptsd-proves-underwhelming https://www.mdedge.com/psychiatry/article/24216/depression/d... Paper: https://mdedge-files-live.s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/files/s3fs-public/issues/articles/70486_main_9.pdf https://mdedge-files-live.s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/files/s...
- elric 7y ago
  This is an interesting take on things. Are you saying that you can't heal/grow/improve by means of talking to someone who hasn't had the same (negative?) experiences as you? Or are you suggesting the lack of intimacy is the detrimental factor? I'm not an expert on intimacy by any means, but I think there's a difference between "feeling understood" and "being understood", and the former strikes me as being the more important of the two.
  - 7373737373 7y ago
    Psychotherapy is mostly about achieving an internal perspective change and being able to apply that continually mentally and through interactions in relationships with others. Not that this is impossible to achieve with a therapist (especially if they are experienced), but when they never had ones own perspective, communicating, actually being and feeling understood and achieving that change can be difficult. If only feeling understood mattered, one might as well talk to a a pet or an inanimate object, say your favorite plushy. When one thinks of psychotherapy, typically an image of the "client" lying on a couch, talking to a psychologist, taking notes, comes to mind. Most of psychotherapy is language (conversation) oriented, but there are many other modes of sensation, being and action. So one shouldn't restrict oneself conceptually to considering only these two-person, fixed-place, conversational/analytical interactions as 'true' psychotherapy.
- pas 7y ago
  Understanding? Maybe. Intimate connections? Who knows. Also, it seems very effective[0] for PTSD. Sure, it can't give you amazing friends to go through life with, or experiences of fantastic sensations as the sun comes up while you are having a blast. But the basics are important too. Knowing yourself, talking about your problems, analyzing them, your life, etc. [0] https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/584a381a8419c22ce765fbf9/1504567188498-ZNDJNKZD6YZJ8BR1OVAK/ke17ZwdGBToddI8pDm48kD-04o75zThnYqEIole7iXEUqsxRUqqbr1mOJYKfIPR7LoDQ9mXPOjoJoqy81S2I8N_N4V1vUb5AoIIIbLZhVYxCRW4BPu10St3TBAUQYVKci-PmFmc7dKRUfMEr9nq0jB-gUStxH4FTi1aiMkoZ6rLvrA-vgDwzdZupALeoD8Qv/prepost_results_simple.jpg https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/584a381a8419c2... - just a random image to illustrate the effectiveness.
derefr 7y ago
I thought this was going to be about the opposite: a study on the use of psychedelics to treat patients with PTSD caused by sexual abuse. Too bad.
- dang 7y ago
  Ok, we've restored the article title. I had briefly changed it to "Psychedelic therapy and sexual abuse" as a way of making it less baity, but you're right that it's misleading.
bagacrap 7y ago
Does normal psychotherapy not have an abuse problem? I'm pretty sure inappropriate relationships between doctor and patient have formed in traditional settings. Is there an indication that it happens more often when psychedelics are involved, or is this just one more way to malign them?
- neonate 7y ago
  The article talks about this. Relationships between licensed therapists and clients are strictly regulated, but not everyone practicing psychedelic therapy is a licensed therapist who would be subject to these regulations.
  - JamesBarney 7y ago
    To illuminate this further. During therapy two people(usually one male one female) are required to be present to reduce the risks of something bad happening. But only one is required to have a license. And in this specific scenario though the person she had the sexual relations with was the unlicensed individual.
    - heavenlyblue 7y ago
      To be fair it does seem like a stupid mistake of the system, not something inherently bad about it
    - lonelappde 7y ago
      Are those two people required to be sober?
Ididntdothis 7y ago
I think a more relevant headline would be "Situations with a power differential have a sexual abuse problem". This applies to teacher/student, boss/employee, therapist/patient, parent/child and many other situations.
- wizardforhire 7y ago
  Yeah but that’s not as good of a headline /s
  - perl4ever 7y ago
    People should be careful about scapegoating a drug or technique, but this headline reminds me of another thing that worries me. People seem unnaturally enthused about low dose ketamine recently, in mental health circles. I can't help thinking, that it has the potential for something kind of similar to the opioid crisis. It may be too paranoid, but I sometimes imagine there are forces in the shadows that want this, because having lots of legitimate prescriptions out there would make it easier to victimize people.
    - WalterSear 7y ago
      As someone whose been on low dose ketamine for over a year, I don't think this is a relevant concern. Or that the enthusiasm is unwarranted. The intoxication involved is slightly more than a couple of beers. It's not habit forming, apart from being profoundly effective.
      - Ididntdothis 7y ago
        "The intoxication involved is slightly more than a couple of beers. It's not habit forming, apart from being profoundly effective. " Some people get addicted to alcohol, some to opioids, some to chocolate so it wouldn't be surprising if Ketamine filled spot for some people. This shouldn't stop us from using it though.
        7y ago
aiphex 7y ago
I've always said, give someone the psychedelics and a safe place to be, but let them be on their own. Lots of travelling to do, no need to stay tethered to this realm by having to converse with a therapist.
- neonate 7y ago
  That's probably not the best way to work with MDMA, which is useful for exploring relational issues, and which is mostly what the article talks about.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - TheOtherHobbes 7y ago
    I don't see how MDMA can be useful for exploring relational issues. It's primarily a controller of emotion and mood, not a psychedelic. So all it's going to do at best is make a client artificially imprint on the therapist - because the client would experience intense emotional closeness after it was administered, followed by a real downer after the session. I'd consider that abusive by definition. It's certainly not going to have the much broader and risky but potentially more productive ego softening effect of real psychedelics, which would focus much less on the therapist and more on the client's interior world.
    - lonelappde 7y ago
      Relationships are built on emotion.
- sharadov 7y ago
  Sounds like you've not been around someone who is having a bad trip, it's traumatic. I've been around some and had to play caretaker till they came down.
  - loeg 7y ago
mgamache 7y ago
If the argument is based on a few anecdotes with no comparative data (like to other mental health services or other forms of psychotherapy) it doesn't hold much weight. I could say that startups have a sexual abuse problem. Therapy has risks as the relationship between the therapist and patient evolves and treatment progresses. I would like to see more data. In the meantime, the be aware that the potential is there (just ask Dr Phil).
- snoman 7y ago
  Yeah, anecdotes aren't altogether useful, but I'm also trying to picture the scenario where a lack of comparative data makes anyone think it's not a big deal.
  - mgamache 7y ago
    It might be a big deal, but the author wants to convince us that it's bigger than other forms of therapy. I take it as a possibility, but it has a low degree of certainty until I see more evidence.
- HelloNurse 7y ago
  It reads like a deliberate attack on MAPS and a truckload of more general FUD about using certain drugs. It might be mere one-sided excessive attention to one case, with one therapist, in one clinical trial (failing to see the big picture, which is attempting to find a good therapy for PTSD) but the impression of dishonest bias and of some hidden agenda (competitors?) is quite strong.
mettamage 7y ago
I never considered MDMA a psychedelic when I compare it to magic mushrooms. So I looked it up to see why other people do consider it a psychedelic. Since this article talks about MAPS, here is a MAPS source on explaining it [1]. So it's a mild psychedelic at best and not a psychedelic at worst (excuse my English, non-native, not an intended value judgement). And the truth probably is that the word psychedelic is used for attention grabbing purposes only. I get that, but I do want to make that clear. I'm simply summarizing the source. [1] https://maps.org/news/multimedia-library/5545-mdma-the-movie-is-mdma-a-psychedelic https://maps.org/news/multimedia-library/5545-mdma-the-movie...
- travisjungroth 7y ago
  > So it's a mild psychedelic at best and not a psychedelic at worst (excuse my English, non-native, not an intended value judgement). "at most" and "at least" would work and be more neutral.
  - mettamage 7y ago
    Thanks, I can't edit it anymore unfortunately, but I appreciate the tidbit of knowledge that was escaping me the whole time.
- jmiskovic 7y ago
  From what I learned (no personal experiences) the MDMA wouldn't be suitable for any kind of therapy? It makes for few hours of energetic ecstasy followed by few hours of lethargic depression. Without psychedelic effect on patient what is there to work with?
  - TomMarius 7y ago
    You're probably speaking of an extasy pill (which is often mixed with other stuff etc), not crystallic MDMA. Set and setting does a lot as well. MDMA can be a very powerful psychedelic (personal experience).
- retrac 7y ago
DoreenMichele 7y ago
This piece is linked in the article: http://psychwatch.blogspot.com/2014/11/this-woman-went-on-to-set-world-record.html http://psychwatch.blogspot.com/2014/11/this-woman-went-on-to... It is by the patient leveling these accusations. It paints an excellent picture concerning why I hate the "junkies and crazies" explanation for homelessness. Her care providers doped her to the gills to allegedly try to fix her while not really doing anything to help her. If she had taken that much medication by choice without a prescription, she would be called a junkie. Defying her doctors to get off the drugs got her called delusional and accused of oppositional defiant disorder. Prior to reading the above, I had a different line of thought in mind for commenting here. Sexual situations are incredibly complex and I generally dislike the way discussions of them typically go. In this case, I will suggest that's sort of the least of the issue. The amount of drugs she was on was potentially life threatening and I'm horrified we are only reading about this because her therapist had a sexual relationship with her. We prescribe drugs too casually and pass out the label "junkie" too cavalierly. If you seek help for your problems and they don't really help you, they just dope you to the gills instead, is it any wonder we have a drug epidemic going on in the US?
- jl2718 7y ago
  We've tried every drug we have and they all made the problems worse, but don't worry, we've got a new drug coming that will fix all of those problems. Ask your doctor about it.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
- 0x8BADF00D 7y ago
  The issue is a lot of women like to redact to consent after the fact. If this becomes the status quo, what is the point in having a relationship? Or a sexual one for that matter?
  - iovrthoughtthis 7y ago
    Could you provide an example situation to illustrate your point?
scarejunba 7y ago
Wait, is the person making the accusations the same Meaghan Buisson who has held world records in inline speed skating. Wow.
scarejunba 7y ago
> Lily Kay Ross said she felt compelled to leave work in psychedelics after she spoke out about her rape by an ayahuasca shaman in the Amazon. “I was told explicitly that I might single-handedly re-instigate the war on drugs and undo all of the advancements in the field of psychedelic research since the 1960s,” she said. “There’s the idea that psychedelics are so important and so wonderful that the train has to keep going. We can’t slow down to get the rapists off the train.” Interestingly, this is sort of homomorphic to the viewpoint that drove George Orwell to write Animal Farm. There the belief was you shouldn't point out the flaws in the USSR because you might set socialism (a desirable ideology to his associates) back some amount of time. It's sort of an interesting view. I, for one, want most of these drugs made available to me easily. I'd like to have trusted MDMA or LSD, purely for recreational purposes. But there's no way I want that to come with the baggage of abusive therapists and all that crap. It's absolutely unacceptable that we can put people in positions where other people are exploiting them. And I think we should make these things just as public as they deserve precisely because of what they are and what they say about how we do things. Essentially, I think this trickle-down illegal->medicinal->legal route is just ripe for abuse since you're giving too much power to the people who can let you have the thing. I wish there were an 'accredited investor' for drugs. Most people are unable to handle drugs. But I'm different. I've used. I've gone half a decade without using. I've used again. And I'm healthy by any metric you could consider.
- luckylion 7y ago
  I agree. Also, if you're not dealing with accusations the proper way, you're looking like a cult. If you're going to suggest using psychedelics in a therapy settings and a side note is "oh yeah and we don't report rapes because that could set back our efforts", you're really just showing terrible judgement and that you have no business being anywhere in a medical profession. On the contrary: being professional and transparent, removing bad actors will be a good approach. You won't convince anyone that's against psychedelics on principle, but you also won't turn anyone away by dealing with rape accusations like every group should. Granted, it's should, there are very few communities where that ever happens, it's mostly about how powerful the victim and the perpetrator are. I like the idea of accredited user, but it's hard to decide. With investors, you can look at account statements and say "okay, crossed the threshold, thanks". For personal stability, that's a very different and much more complicated issue where you'd hand whoever decides a lot of power. I do think we should have legal drugs anyhow, the harm reduction alone is worth it.
throwawaya1 7y ago
Anecdote time. I had a psychedelic experience not that long ago with professional guides in a place where it's legal. At some point when tripping I became very aroused. I felt like I would agree to any suggestion of intimacy at this point. I was still aware of it, but it took a lot of self discipline not to initiate improper contact with my guides myself. The whole guided trip was an amazing experience and I am glad I have done it. Guides were very professional and made me feel safe. However, the potential for sexual misconduct on both sides is something that is not really being talked about, but needs to be addressed.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
say_it_as_it_is 7y ago
A doctor abused his position, therefore all of psychedelic therapy has a sexual abuse problem. Quartz needs a new editor.
empath75 7y ago
Mdma is such that you can take it with pretty much anyone and work out your trauma issues. You don’t need a therapist.
- elric 7y ago
  MDMA can also kill you outright (by means of heart attack) if you have any underlying heart conditions. Be safe and don't randomly take drugs in the hope that they will help you with your trauma issues. See a therapist.

93 points by laurex 7y ago

The problem with restricting (psychedelic) therapy to supervised, one-on-one clinical settings is that these places by their nature cannot provide experiences, intimate connections and understanding that are necessary for self-discovery, -healing and -improvement. The transactional institution that doctors, therapists and mental health hospitals represent can only provide a foundation and safe environment for such opportunities. Talking to people who have or had similar life experiences, who truly know how the pain one suffers feels and what it means to live that way from the inside is of the highest value.

anigbrowl 7y ago
Completely agree. While I'm very, very much in favor of psychedelics as therapy aid, the idea of therapist-guided trips is extremely offputting. At best it will Disney-fy the whole experience, at worst create far more problems.
- travisjungroth 7y ago
  Just for an alternate perspective, there's a therapist I'd completely trust to be my guide. I certainly wouldn't expect a Disney experience.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
ketamine__ 7y ago
Taking psychedelics in a therapy setting is even more risky than off-label prescription itself. The patient may think there is little risk but there is a chance of making the condition worse.
- pas 7y ago
  Sources? Data? Evidence? Studies? Citations please. This is a very strong claim! And I'm saying this because my gut feeling sort of agrees with you, but so far MAPS' FDA approved studies doesn't seem indicate that there's this risk factor. Who knows what will happen if it hits mainstream though. (As with any other therapies, at first everything is magical, because truly motivated people practice them, then it just becomes something done by certified professionals, then it just becomes a big section in a regular textbook.) That said, there is very good chance that even if it's risky, it has at least the potential to do real work. ( https://slatestarcodex.com/2019/11/26/mental-mountains/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2019/11/26/mental-mountains/ )
  - ketamine__ 7y ago
    Commentary: https://www.mdedge.com/psychiatry/article/24216/depression/d-cycloserine-ptsd-proves-underwhelming https://www.mdedge.com/psychiatry/article/24216/depression/d... Paper: https://mdedge-files-live.s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/files/s3fs-public/issues/articles/70486_main_9.pdf https://mdedge-files-live.s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/files/s...
elric 7y ago
This is an interesting take on things. Are you saying that you can't heal/grow/improve by means of talking to someone who hasn't had the same (negative?) experiences as you? Or are you suggesting the lack of intimacy is the detrimental factor? I'm not an expert on intimacy by any means, but I think there's a difference between "feeling understood" and "being understood", and the former strikes me as being the more important of the two.
- 7373737373 7y ago
  Psychotherapy is mostly about achieving an internal perspective change and being able to apply that continually mentally and through interactions in relationships with others. Not that this is impossible to achieve with a therapist (especially if they are experienced), but when they never had ones own perspective, communicating, actually being and feeling understood and achieving that change can be difficult. If only feeling understood mattered, one might as well talk to a a pet or an inanimate object, say your favorite plushy. When one thinks of psychotherapy, typically an image of the "client" lying on a couch, talking to a psychologist, taking notes, comes to mind. Most of psychotherapy is language (conversation) oriented, but there are many other modes of sensation, being and action. So one shouldn't restrict oneself conceptually to considering only these two-person, fixed-place, conversational/analytical interactions as 'true' psychotherapy.
pas 7y ago
Understanding? Maybe. Intimate connections? Who knows. Also, it seems very effective[0] for PTSD. Sure, it can't give you amazing friends to go through life with, or experiences of fantastic sensations as the sun comes up while you are having a blast. But the basics are important too. Knowing yourself, talking about your problems, analyzing them, your life, etc. [0] https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/584a381a8419c22ce765fbf9/1504567188498-ZNDJNKZD6YZJ8BR1OVAK/ke17ZwdGBToddI8pDm48kD-04o75zThnYqEIole7iXEUqsxRUqqbr1mOJYKfIPR7LoDQ9mXPOjoJoqy81S2I8N_N4V1vUb5AoIIIbLZhVYxCRW4BPu10St3TBAUQYVKci-PmFmc7dKRUfMEr9nq0jB-gUStxH4FTi1aiMkoZ6rLvrA-vgDwzdZupALeoD8Qv/prepost_results_simple.jpg https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/584a381a8419c2... - just a random image to illustrate the effectiveness.

derefr 7y ago

I thought this was going to be about the opposite: a study on the use of psychedelics to treat patients with PTSD caused by sexual abuse. Too bad.

dang 7y ago
Ok, we've restored the article title. I had briefly changed it to "Psychedelic therapy and sexual abuse" as a way of making it less baity, but you're right that it's misleading.

bagacrap 7y ago

Does normal psychotherapy not have an abuse problem? I'm pretty sure inappropriate relationships between doctor and patient have formed in traditional settings. Is there an indication that it happens more often when psychedelics are involved, or is this just one more way to malign them?

neonate 7y ago
The article talks about this. Relationships between licensed therapists and clients are strictly regulated, but not everyone practicing psychedelic therapy is a licensed therapist who would be subject to these regulations.
- JamesBarney 7y ago
  To illuminate this further. During therapy two people(usually one male one female) are required to be present to reduce the risks of something bad happening. But only one is required to have a license. And in this specific scenario though the person she had the sexual relations with was the unlicensed individual.
  - heavenlyblue 7y ago
    To be fair it does seem like a stupid mistake of the system, not something inherently bad about it
  - lonelappde 7y ago
    Are those two people required to be sober?

Ididntdothis 7y ago

I think a more relevant headline would be "Situations with a power differential have a sexual abuse problem". This applies to teacher/student, boss/employee, therapist/patient, parent/child and many other situations.

wizardforhire 7y ago
Yeah but that’s not as good of a headline /s
- perl4ever 7y ago
  People should be careful about scapegoating a drug or technique, but this headline reminds me of another thing that worries me. People seem unnaturally enthused about low dose ketamine recently, in mental health circles. I can't help thinking, that it has the potential for something kind of similar to the opioid crisis. It may be too paranoid, but I sometimes imagine there are forces in the shadows that want this, because having lots of legitimate prescriptions out there would make it easier to victimize people.
  - WalterSear 7y ago
    As someone whose been on low dose ketamine for over a year, I don't think this is a relevant concern. Or that the enthusiasm is unwarranted. The intoxication involved is slightly more than a couple of beers. It's not habit forming, apart from being profoundly effective.
    - Ididntdothis 7y ago
      "The intoxication involved is slightly more than a couple of beers. It's not habit forming, apart from being profoundly effective. " Some people get addicted to alcohol, some to opioids, some to chocolate so it wouldn't be surprising if Ketamine filled spot for some people. This shouldn't stop us from using it though.
      - 7y ago

aiphex 7y ago

I've always said, give someone the psychedelics and a safe place to be, but let them be on their own. Lots of travelling to do, no need to stay tethered to this realm by having to converse with a therapist.

neonate 7y ago
That's probably not the best way to work with MDMA, which is useful for exploring relational issues, and which is mostly what the article talks about.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- TheOtherHobbes 7y ago
  I don't see how MDMA can be useful for exploring relational issues. It's primarily a controller of emotion and mood, not a psychedelic. So all it's going to do at best is make a client artificially imprint on the therapist - because the client would experience intense emotional closeness after it was administered, followed by a real downer after the session. I'd consider that abusive by definition. It's certainly not going to have the much broader and risky but potentially more productive ego softening effect of real psychedelics, which would focus much less on the therapist and more on the client's interior world.
  - lonelappde 7y ago
    Relationships are built on emotion.
sharadov 7y ago
Sounds like you've not been around someone who is having a bad trip, it's traumatic. I've been around some and had to play caretaker till they came down.
- loeg 7y ago

mgamache 7y ago

If the argument is based on a few anecdotes with no comparative data (like to other mental health services or other forms of psychotherapy) it doesn't hold much weight. I could say that startups have a sexual abuse problem. Therapy has risks as the relationship between the therapist and patient evolves and treatment progresses. I would like to see more data. In the meantime, the be aware that the potential is there (just ask Dr Phil).

snoman 7y ago
Yeah, anecdotes aren't altogether useful, but I'm also trying to picture the scenario where a lack of comparative data makes anyone think it's not a big deal.
- mgamache 7y ago
  It might be a big deal, but the author wants to convince us that it's bigger than other forms of therapy. I take it as a possibility, but it has a low degree of certainty until I see more evidence.
HelloNurse 7y ago
It reads like a deliberate attack on MAPS and a truckload of more general FUD about using certain drugs. It might be mere one-sided excessive attention to one case, with one therapist, in one clinical trial (failing to see the big picture, which is attempting to find a good therapy for PTSD) but the impression of dishonest bias and of some hidden agenda (competitors?) is quite strong.

mettamage 7y ago

I never considered MDMA a psychedelic when I compare it to magic mushrooms. So I looked it up to see why other people do consider it a psychedelic. Since this article talks about MAPS, here is a MAPS source on explaining it [1]. So it's a mild psychedelic at best and not a psychedelic at worst (excuse my English, non-native, not an intended value judgement). And the truth probably is that the word psychedelic is used for attention grabbing purposes only. I get that, but I do want to make that clear. I'm simply summarizing the source. [1] https://maps.org/news/multimedia-library/5545-mdma-the-movie-is-mdma-a-psychedelic https://maps.org/news/multimedia-library/5545-mdma-the-movie...

travisjungroth 7y ago
> So it's a mild psychedelic at best and not a psychedelic at worst (excuse my English, non-native, not an intended value judgement). "at most" and "at least" would work and be more neutral.
- mettamage 7y ago
  Thanks, I can't edit it anymore unfortunately, but I appreciate the tidbit of knowledge that was escaping me the whole time.
jmiskovic 7y ago
From what I learned (no personal experiences) the MDMA wouldn't be suitable for any kind of therapy? It makes for few hours of energetic ecstasy followed by few hours of lethargic depression. Without psychedelic effect on patient what is there to work with?
- TomMarius 7y ago
  You're probably speaking of an extasy pill (which is often mixed with other stuff etc), not crystallic MDMA. Set and setting does a lot as well. MDMA can be a very powerful psychedelic (personal experience).
retrac 7y ago

DoreenMichele 7y ago

This piece is linked in the article: http://psychwatch.blogspot.com/2014/11/this-woman-went-on-to-set-world-record.html http://psychwatch.blogspot.com/2014/11/this-woman-went-on-to... It is by the patient leveling these accusations. It paints an excellent picture concerning why I hate the "junkies and crazies" explanation for homelessness. Her care providers doped her to the gills to allegedly try to fix her while not really doing anything to help her. If she had taken that much medication by choice without a prescription, she would be called a junkie. Defying her doctors to get off the drugs got her called delusional and accused of oppositional defiant disorder. Prior to reading the above, I had a different line of thought in mind for commenting here. Sexual situations are incredibly complex and I generally dislike the way discussions of them typically go. In this case, I will suggest that's sort of the least of the issue. The amount of drugs she was on was potentially life threatening and I'm horrified we are only reading about this because her therapist had a sexual relationship with her. We prescribe drugs too casually and pass out the label "junkie" too cavalierly. If you seek help for your problems and they don't really help you, they just dope you to the gills instead, is it any wonder we have a drug epidemic going on in the US?

jl2718 7y ago
We've tried every drug we have and they all made the problems worse, but don't worry, we've got a new drug coming that will fix all of those problems. Ask your doctor about it.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
0x8BADF00D 7y ago
The issue is a lot of women like to redact to consent after the fact. If this becomes the status quo, what is the point in having a relationship? Or a sexual one for that matter?
- iovrthoughtthis 7y ago
  Could you provide an example situation to illustrate your point?

scarejunba 7y ago

Wait, is the person making the accusations the same Meaghan Buisson who has held world records in inline speed skating. Wow.

scarejunba 7y ago

> Lily Kay Ross said she felt compelled to leave work in psychedelics after she spoke out about her rape by an ayahuasca shaman in the Amazon. “I was told explicitly that I might single-handedly re-instigate the war on drugs and undo all of the advancements in the field of psychedelic research since the 1960s,” she said. “There’s the idea that psychedelics are so important and so wonderful that the train has to keep going. We can’t slow down to get the rapists off the train.” Interestingly, this is sort of homomorphic to the viewpoint that drove George Orwell to write Animal Farm. There the belief was you shouldn't point out the flaws in the USSR because you might set socialism (a desirable ideology to his associates) back some amount of time. It's sort of an interesting view. I, for one, want most of these drugs made available to me easily. I'd like to have trusted MDMA or LSD, purely for recreational purposes. But there's no way I want that to come with the baggage of abusive therapists and all that crap. It's absolutely unacceptable that we can put people in positions where other people are exploiting them. And I think we should make these things just as public as they deserve precisely because of what they are and what they say about how we do things. Essentially, I think this trickle-down illegal->medicinal->legal route is just ripe for abuse since you're giving too much power to the people who can let you have the thing. I wish there were an 'accredited investor' for drugs. Most people are unable to handle drugs. But I'm different. I've used. I've gone half a decade without using. I've used again. And I'm healthy by any metric you could consider.

luckylion 7y ago
I agree. Also, if you're not dealing with accusations the proper way, you're looking like a cult. If you're going to suggest using psychedelics in a therapy settings and a side note is "oh yeah and we don't report rapes because that could set back our efforts", you're really just showing terrible judgement and that you have no business being anywhere in a medical profession. On the contrary: being professional and transparent, removing bad actors will be a good approach. You won't convince anyone that's against psychedelics on principle, but you also won't turn anyone away by dealing with rape accusations like every group should. Granted, it's should, there are very few communities where that ever happens, it's mostly about how powerful the victim and the perpetrator are. I like the idea of accredited user, but it's hard to decide. With investors, you can look at account statements and say "okay, crossed the threshold, thanks". For personal stability, that's a very different and much more complicated issue where you'd hand whoever decides a lot of power. I do think we should have legal drugs anyhow, the harm reduction alone is worth it.

throwawaya1 7y ago

Anecdote time. I had a psychedelic experience not that long ago with professional guides in a place where it's legal. At some point when tripping I became very aroused. I felt like I would agree to any suggestion of intimacy at this point. I was still aware of it, but it took a lot of self discipline not to initiate improper contact with my guides myself. The whole guided trip was an amazing experience and I am glad I have done it. Guides were very professional and made me feel safe. However, the potential for sexual misconduct on both sides is something that is not really being talked about, but needs to be addressed.

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say_it_as_it_is 7y ago

A doctor abused his position, therefore all of psychedelic therapy has a sexual abuse problem. Quartz needs a new editor.

empath75 7y ago

Mdma is such that you can take it with pretty much anyone and work out your trauma issues. You don’t need a therapist.

elric 7y ago
MDMA can also kill you outright (by means of heart attack) if you have any underlying heart conditions. Be safe and don't randomly take drugs in the hope that they will help you with your trauma issues. See a therapist.