4 ms·

And 9 out of the top 10 American billionaires are self-made. It's amazing how you can use the same data to argue the opposite point, just on how you frame it.

minikites 7y ago
Define "self-made", that's the real difference of opinion. How many first generation immigrants from truly impoverished nations become billionaires?
mdszy 7y ago
A group doesn't have to be the majority to be significant.
zeusk 7y ago
I wouldn't count Bill Gates entirely self made and so would himself. His parents, his colleagues, and every one around him played a major role in success. If anything, I'd say luck and timing are more important than being nice.
asjw 7y ago
I don't think that is true Warren Buffet' father was a congressman Larry Page's father was a professor of computer science at University Sergey Brin's father was professor of mathematics at University and his mother worked at NASA these are the first three I looked up and they don't look like low or middle class
- eanzenberg 7y ago
  Your model breaks down. 99.9999999...% of children of congresspeople, professors and NASA workers are not billionaires.
  - minikites 7y ago
    It's a "necessary but not sufficient" type of condition.
  - chinesempire 7y ago
    I think you made some mistakes in your math. There are 535 Congressmen in USA, 99.99999999% of them is well... 535. If I find the son of a Congressman that made billions your model will prove wrong Warren Buffet is one.
    - eanzenberg 7y ago
      >>99.9999999...% of children of
      - chinesempire 7y ago
        Still one in a billion
- ThrowawayR2 7y ago
  How are professors not middle class, financially? Academia doesn't pay particularly well.
  - chinesempire 7y ago
    I wish my father was professor at University. How is it not upper class?
  - bradlys 7y ago
    Financially - it's possible they're middle class. I've seen plenty of professors making $150k+/yr though... That's 3x the median household income. But, I think middle class is more than just raw finance. Educational background of the parents is very important too. If you grow up with two professors - don't you think you'll do better than two high school dropouts? (On average)
wildengineer 7y ago
I hate that word, self-made. I think of Bezos, Buffet, Gates and all three of them had investment from their parents or had a business relationship made possible by their parents. Of the billionaires I know of, all them came from at least an upper middle class family. Certainly they are a special kind of talent and a big part of their own success, but they were raised by nurturing families with significant resources.
throwaway55554 7y ago
> And 9 out of the top 10 American billionaires are self-made. Is there really such a thing as self-made? I honestly don't believe so. Otherwise, I think more people would do it.
- filoleg 7y ago
  Disagreed. Simply said, not everyone has the chops to do it, not even mentioning luck. If that wasn't the case, we wouldn't have a demand/supply graph for software engineers in the US so screwed up, given how much pay one can get and how few credentials are required for it, especially compared to other similarly paying jobs. Not saying that those situations are perfectly comparable at all, just trying to make a point that "if it was so good and easy, why isn't everyone successfully doing it" isn't really a solid argument for this.
  - throwaway55554 7y ago
    Well, to be fair, I said "more" not "everyone". Also, if it were true that people could be "self-made", we'd see a more diverse selection of "self-made" people. Instead, we see races and genders that aren't doing anywhere near as well as other races and genders.
    - filoleg 7y ago
      If you think about diversity in terms of "races and genders", then I agree with you, there could be more of that. If you think in terms of financial upbringing, we got a lot of diversity going. US has an insane turnover in terms of wealth, with a really high number of first gen millionaires and billionaires. Also note the fact that 70% of families losing wealth just a generation or two down the road[0]. Which is imo a very good thing, as it brings more evidence and support for the "self-made" theory. In terms of social upbringing, just look at the numbers of top-tier CEOs and founders who are children of immigrants or immigrants themselves[1]. 0. https://money.com/rich-families-lose-wealth/ https://money.com/rich-families-lose-wealth/ 1. https://www.cnbc.com/2018/05/30/us-tech-companies-founded-by-immigrants-or-the-children-of-immigrants.html https://www.cnbc.com/2018/05/30/us-tech-companies-founded-by...
gshdg 7y ago
Majority isn't so much what matters. The percentage of people with significant inherited wealth who becomes billionaires far exceeds the percentage of people with significant inherited wealth in the general population. Thus, inheriting wealth has an enormous impact on the likelihood of becoming a billionaire in America.
SkyBelow 7y ago
Are they self made? They might have made billions, but did they come from wealthy well connected families that or were they self made? Turning a million into a billion is significantly easier than turning a hundred into a billion because it buys you the ability to try without risking your future.
cooperadymas 7y ago
Every time someone brings up people being self-made the discussion turns into post hoc justification. It seems that we can't simply accept someone's immense success and we must find some excuse for why they made it. Yes, luck and the people around them play a role in any success (and equally, in any failure) and that must be accounted for, but that's not nearly enough to automatically discount the actual person. I guarantee if a the son of a middle class innkeeper with an absentee father from Greenbow, Alabama became a billionaire people would say he had an advantage because he got to experience a diverse group of people as a kid and had a loving mother who supported him. An orphan living on the streets in an impoverished town in Italy and we'd say not everyone has the opportunity to make their own way when they're only 9 years old. Shrug.
mcguire 7y ago
Ok, we've got: Jeff Bezos Bill Gates Warren Buffett Mark Zuckerberg Larry Ellison Larry Page Sergey Brin Michael Bloomberg Steve Ballmer Jim Walton I'll start: Here's my list of the "self-made": Jeff Bezos, Larry Ellison, Michael Bloomberg (although I don't know how he made partner at Bloomberg at 30). Maybe Steve Ballmer. Page and Brin are special cases; they're the children of university professors.

minikites 7y ago

Define "self-made", that's the real difference of opinion. How many first generation immigrants from truly impoverished nations become billionaires?

mdszy 7y ago

A group doesn't have to be the majority to be significant.

zeusk 7y ago

I wouldn't count Bill Gates entirely self made and so would himself. His parents, his colleagues, and every one around him played a major role in success. If anything, I'd say luck and timing are more important than being nice.

asjw 7y ago

I don't think that is true Warren Buffet' father was a congressman Larry Page's father was a professor of computer science at University Sergey Brin's father was professor of mathematics at University and his mother worked at NASA these are the first three I looked up and they don't look like low or middle class

eanzenberg 7y ago
Your model breaks down. 99.9999999...% of children of congresspeople, professors and NASA workers are not billionaires.
- minikites 7y ago
  It's a "necessary but not sufficient" type of condition.
- chinesempire 7y ago
  I think you made some mistakes in your math. There are 535 Congressmen in USA, 99.99999999% of them is well... 535. If I find the son of a Congressman that made billions your model will prove wrong Warren Buffet is one.
  - eanzenberg 7y ago
    >>99.9999999...% of children of
    - chinesempire 7y ago
      Still one in a billion
ThrowawayR2 7y ago
How are professors not middle class, financially? Academia doesn't pay particularly well.
- chinesempire 7y ago
  I wish my father was professor at University. How is it not upper class?
- bradlys 7y ago
  Financially - it's possible they're middle class. I've seen plenty of professors making $150k+/yr though... That's 3x the median household income. But, I think middle class is more than just raw finance. Educational background of the parents is very important too. If you grow up with two professors - don't you think you'll do better than two high school dropouts? (On average)

wildengineer 7y ago

I hate that word, self-made. I think of Bezos, Buffet, Gates and all three of them had investment from their parents or had a business relationship made possible by their parents. Of the billionaires I know of, all them came from at least an upper middle class family. Certainly they are a special kind of talent and a big part of their own success, but they were raised by nurturing families with significant resources.

throwaway55554 7y ago

> And 9 out of the top 10 American billionaires are self-made. Is there really such a thing as self-made? I honestly don't believe so. Otherwise, I think more people would do it.

filoleg 7y ago
Disagreed. Simply said, not everyone has the chops to do it, not even mentioning luck. If that wasn't the case, we wouldn't have a demand/supply graph for software engineers in the US so screwed up, given how much pay one can get and how few credentials are required for it, especially compared to other similarly paying jobs. Not saying that those situations are perfectly comparable at all, just trying to make a point that "if it was so good and easy, why isn't everyone successfully doing it" isn't really a solid argument for this.
- throwaway55554 7y ago
  Well, to be fair, I said "more" not "everyone". Also, if it were true that people could be "self-made", we'd see a more diverse selection of "self-made" people. Instead, we see races and genders that aren't doing anywhere near as well as other races and genders.
  - filoleg 7y ago
    If you think about diversity in terms of "races and genders", then I agree with you, there could be more of that. If you think in terms of financial upbringing, we got a lot of diversity going. US has an insane turnover in terms of wealth, with a really high number of first gen millionaires and billionaires. Also note the fact that 70% of families losing wealth just a generation or two down the road[0]. Which is imo a very good thing, as it brings more evidence and support for the "self-made" theory. In terms of social upbringing, just look at the numbers of top-tier CEOs and founders who are children of immigrants or immigrants themselves[1]. 0. https://money.com/rich-families-lose-wealth/ https://money.com/rich-families-lose-wealth/ 1. https://www.cnbc.com/2018/05/30/us-tech-companies-founded-by-immigrants-or-the-children-of-immigrants.html https://www.cnbc.com/2018/05/30/us-tech-companies-founded-by...

gshdg 7y ago

Majority isn't so much what matters. The percentage of people with significant inherited wealth who becomes billionaires far exceeds the percentage of people with significant inherited wealth in the general population. Thus, inheriting wealth has an enormous impact on the likelihood of becoming a billionaire in America.

SkyBelow 7y ago

Are they self made? They might have made billions, but did they come from wealthy well connected families that or were they self made? Turning a million into a billion is significantly easier than turning a hundred into a billion because it buys you the ability to try without risking your future.

cooperadymas 7y ago

Every time someone brings up people being self-made the discussion turns into post hoc justification. It seems that we can't simply accept someone's immense success and we must find some excuse for why they made it. Yes, luck and the people around them play a role in any success (and equally, in any failure) and that must be accounted for, but that's not nearly enough to automatically discount the actual person. I guarantee if a the son of a middle class innkeeper with an absentee father from Greenbow, Alabama became a billionaire people would say he had an advantage because he got to experience a diverse group of people as a kid and had a loving mother who supported him. An orphan living on the streets in an impoverished town in Italy and we'd say not everyone has the opportunity to make their own way when they're only 9 years old. Shrug.

mcguire 7y ago

Ok, we've got: Jeff Bezos Bill Gates Warren Buffett Mark Zuckerberg Larry Ellison Larry Page Sergey Brin Michael Bloomberg Steve Ballmer Jim Walton I'll start: Here's my list of the "self-made": Jeff Bezos, Larry Ellison, Michael Bloomberg (although I don't know how he made partner at Bloomberg at 30). Maybe Steve Ballmer. Page and Brin are special cases; they're the children of university professors.