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Thank you for linking to the paper. The study measures the effects of regular caffeine users: > Participants were invited to participate if they were between

Thank you for linking to the paper. The study measures the effects of regular caffeine users: > Participants were invited to participate if they were between 18-35 years of age, consumed between 1-2 cups of caffeinated beverages per day at least 5 days a week, did not smoke, were native English speakers, and took no psychiatric medications or painkillers on a regular basis. > [...] > Participants were asked to abstain from any caffeinated or alcoholic beverages from 4 pm on the day prior to the session. I recently listened to Michael Pollan's Caffeine [0], which was on Audible's free monthly audiobook list recently. He argues (and I'm inclined to agree) that if you are a daily caffeine consumer, your daily cup of coffee does less in the way of cognitive enhancement, and more in the way of getting you back to your baseline (i.e. preventing caffeine withdrawal). With this in mind, I think the study could be improved by having subjects who started off completely off caffeine for a few weeks. That way, we'd be more certain that the control group isn't going through caffeine withdrawal, and that the effect of caffeine isn't decreased by tolerance. [0] https://www.audible.com/pd/Caffeine-Audiobook/B083MVZ91Y https://www.audible.com/pd/Caffeine-Audiobook/B083MVZ91Y [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22503948 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22503948

olejorgenb 7y ago
Yeah, seems like a major flaw to tbh. > Typically, the onset of symptoms starts 12 to 24 hours after caffeine cessation, peaks at 20–51 hours, and may last up to two to nine days. > The severity of symptoms vary from individual to individual, and most commonly include a headache, fatigue, decreased energy/activeness, decreased alertness, drowsiness, decreased contentedness, depressed mood, difficulty concentrating, irritability, and feeling foggy/not clearheaded > The incidence or severity of symptoms increased with increases in the daily dose, but abstinence from low doses, such as about one small cup of coffee per day, also produced symptoms of withdrawal. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK430790/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK430790/
- basq 7y ago
  I've been doing 'days off' off coffee amd I'm inclined to sleep waaaay more. Like from 8 hours to 14. It can be a massive trade off in productivity. I have to set aside light workloads for those days.
Waterluvian 7y ago
Of course this is anecdotal and should be taken as such. But I can completely get on board with Pollan's assertion. If I stop caffeine consumption for a few weeks. The day I go back on, even a single coffee puts me into a "oh wow where have you been all my life?!" energized mood of getting stuff done.
jrs95 7y ago
This would be a big improvement to the study. As part of preparation for the WoW Classic launch I and the rest of my leveling group quit caffeine for 2 weeks to help reset our tolerance. In order to play as effectively as possible we delayed using caffeine for as long we possible in our sessions so we could play longer. Being used to consuming caffeine on a daily basis it was amazing to see the difference in its effectiveness using that method.
mindslight 7y ago
I'm in touch with the dose because I tend to nibble pills. It's weird to me how often people consume caffeine uncritically, skipping days, having arbitrary massive doses, etc. I'm clean right now, but if I were going to start up again, 66-100mg would be all I needed to be flying. The 200mg in the study is odd to me, because that kind of dose only makes sense for someone who is already chemically dependent. Cold turkey is the only effective way I've found to lower my dose. My personal caffeine withdrawal timeline is about 4-5 weeks (starting from say 400-500mg/day). The first few days are bad, the next few days are better. The second week is terrible. The third week is worse. Then it slowly gets better.
- vidarh 7y ago
  I think the issue is how you'd find enough people sufficiently "clean" that 66mg-100mg would be a big dose. Most people don't keep track of their caffeine ingestion at all, but downs big cups of coffee at uncontrolled intervals. For my part withdrawal from going cold turkey is absolute hell unless I'm travelling or otherwise majorly changing my routine. Like with many other drugs, despite the severe physical effects, caffeine withdrawal is very dependent on mental state as well. I always tends to minimize or totally stop my caffeine intake when I go on holiday or visit family etc, and I don't notice any of the normal withdrawal effects. If I for whatever reason want to "reset" outside of travel, I'll try to step down, and pre-emptively take a paracetamol/acetaminophen early evening because I tend to start getting shakes in the evening if I reduce my caffeine intake too quickly. Cold turkey is too brutal for me. People don't seem to realise just how much caffeine can affect them. It can be incredibly useful, but like you I find it weird that people consume it ad hoc without carefully managing the doses. I suspect a lot of people spend a lot of time miserable without realising why because of it.
salt-licker 7y ago
Yep, I almost never drink coffee more than 3 days in a row because it loses its affect. Luckily, intolerance comes back after only a day or two off.
- petargyurov 7y ago
  I was under the impression that on average the brain/body needs around 9 days of no caffeine consumption to get back to its natural baseline. I can't seem to find the source of that study right now...
  - fultonfaknem42 7y ago
    You could do the math if you look up the half-life of caffeine. Via a quick Google search it looks like it is 4-6 hours. So if I understand it correctly, it's 4-6 hours for 100mg to become 50mg, then another 4-6 for 50mg to become 25mg, etc. So like if all you did was have a single cup of 100mg coffee, then its like 12-18 hours for it to go away. If you're me though, you drink like 3-4 a day. This seems to be about 28 to 42 hours. Withdrawals could take up to 2 weeks in my experience, and are proportional to how heavy my intake was.
    - samatman 7y ago
      That tells you how long before it's out of your system, not how long it takes to reset after. Effect duration for a psychoactive is related to half-life, but they aren't identical, and 'reset time' varies widely, e.g. MDMA is over in about 4 hours but it takes at minimum of two weeks before one can get a comparable effect again.
    - hombre_fatal 7y ago
      You'd have to look at things like the rate of downregulation of the appropriate brain components that caffeine affects.
- sova 7y ago
  Unexpected use of the word intolerance, "caffeine sensitivity returns" -- in this case "intolerance" and "sensitivity" are synonyms, how interesting!
iancmceachern 7y ago
His audio book is great, also his recent interview on NPRs fresh air was great!
vorpalhex 7y ago
I personally cycle my caffeine usage, with intentionally low dose weeks between higher dose weeks.

olejorgenb 7y ago

Yeah, seems like a major flaw to tbh. > Typically, the onset of symptoms starts 12 to 24 hours after caffeine cessation, peaks at 20–51 hours, and may last up to two to nine days. > The severity of symptoms vary from individual to individual, and most commonly include a headache, fatigue, decreased energy/activeness, decreased alertness, drowsiness, decreased contentedness, depressed mood, difficulty concentrating, irritability, and feeling foggy/not clearheaded > The incidence or severity of symptoms increased with increases in the daily dose, but abstinence from low doses, such as about one small cup of coffee per day, also produced symptoms of withdrawal. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK430790/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK430790/

basq 7y ago
I've been doing 'days off' off coffee amd I'm inclined to sleep waaaay more. Like from 8 hours to 14. It can be a massive trade off in productivity. I have to set aside light workloads for those days.

Waterluvian 7y ago

Of course this is anecdotal and should be taken as such. But I can completely get on board with Pollan's assertion. If I stop caffeine consumption for a few weeks. The day I go back on, even a single coffee puts me into a "oh wow where have you been all my life?!" energized mood of getting stuff done.

jrs95 7y ago

This would be a big improvement to the study. As part of preparation for the WoW Classic launch I and the rest of my leveling group quit caffeine for 2 weeks to help reset our tolerance. In order to play as effectively as possible we delayed using caffeine for as long we possible in our sessions so we could play longer. Being used to consuming caffeine on a daily basis it was amazing to see the difference in its effectiveness using that method.

mindslight 7y ago

I'm in touch with the dose because I tend to nibble pills. It's weird to me how often people consume caffeine uncritically, skipping days, having arbitrary massive doses, etc. I'm clean right now, but if I were going to start up again, 66-100mg would be all I needed to be flying. The 200mg in the study is odd to me, because that kind of dose only makes sense for someone who is already chemically dependent. Cold turkey is the only effective way I've found to lower my dose. My personal caffeine withdrawal timeline is about 4-5 weeks (starting from say 400-500mg/day). The first few days are bad, the next few days are better. The second week is terrible. The third week is worse. Then it slowly gets better.

vidarh 7y ago
I think the issue is how you'd find enough people sufficiently "clean" that 66mg-100mg would be a big dose. Most people don't keep track of their caffeine ingestion at all, but downs big cups of coffee at uncontrolled intervals. For my part withdrawal from going cold turkey is absolute hell unless I'm travelling or otherwise majorly changing my routine. Like with many other drugs, despite the severe physical effects, caffeine withdrawal is very dependent on mental state as well. I always tends to minimize or totally stop my caffeine intake when I go on holiday or visit family etc, and I don't notice any of the normal withdrawal effects. If I for whatever reason want to "reset" outside of travel, I'll try to step down, and pre-emptively take a paracetamol/acetaminophen early evening because I tend to start getting shakes in the evening if I reduce my caffeine intake too quickly. Cold turkey is too brutal for me. People don't seem to realise just how much caffeine can affect them. It can be incredibly useful, but like you I find it weird that people consume it ad hoc without carefully managing the doses. I suspect a lot of people spend a lot of time miserable without realising why because of it.

salt-licker 7y ago

Yep, I almost never drink coffee more than 3 days in a row because it loses its affect. Luckily, intolerance comes back after only a day or two off.

petargyurov 7y ago
I was under the impression that on average the brain/body needs around 9 days of no caffeine consumption to get back to its natural baseline. I can't seem to find the source of that study right now...
- fultonfaknem42 7y ago
  You could do the math if you look up the half-life of caffeine. Via a quick Google search it looks like it is 4-6 hours. So if I understand it correctly, it's 4-6 hours for 100mg to become 50mg, then another 4-6 for 50mg to become 25mg, etc. So like if all you did was have a single cup of 100mg coffee, then its like 12-18 hours for it to go away. If you're me though, you drink like 3-4 a day. This seems to be about 28 to 42 hours. Withdrawals could take up to 2 weeks in my experience, and are proportional to how heavy my intake was.
  - samatman 7y ago
    That tells you how long before it's out of your system, not how long it takes to reset after. Effect duration for a psychoactive is related to half-life, but they aren't identical, and 'reset time' varies widely, e.g. MDMA is over in about 4 hours but it takes at minimum of two weeks before one can get a comparable effect again.
  - hombre_fatal 7y ago
    You'd have to look at things like the rate of downregulation of the appropriate brain components that caffeine affects.
sova 7y ago
Unexpected use of the word intolerance, "caffeine sensitivity returns" -- in this case "intolerance" and "sensitivity" are synonyms, how interesting!

iancmceachern 7y ago

His audio book is great, also his recent interview on NPRs fresh air was great!

vorpalhex 7y ago

I personally cycle my caffeine usage, with intentionally low dose weeks between higher dose weeks.