7 ms·

what if a startup charged $300 per month for all you can eat email legal advice backed by a rich library of templates? they would instantly dominate and there a

what if a startup charged $300 per month for all you can eat email legal advice backed by a rich library of templates? they would instantly dominate and there are 6M small businesses in the USA alone

berberous 7y ago
You get what you pay for. $300 is 20 minutes of a good lawyer’s time. The economics don’t work.
- m0zg 7y ago
  More like an hour of a good lawyer time. Mine charges $350/hr. But your point stands. I don't see how his work could be done with "templates". Most of the time I pay him for contract reviews.
  - slap_shot 7y ago
    High end firms can easily be $800+/hr for attorneys. I believe Wilson Sonsini was $1200/hr for an attorney I was recommended.
    - gnicholas 7y ago
      Top partners were already at $1,200/hr when I left the law in 2014. They’re now hovering around $2,000/hr.
      - m0zg 7y ago
        You don't need a "top partner" for contract review.
        gnicholas 7y ago
        That’s true. But for a big enough deal, you want partners to be reviewing — at least at a conceptual level — the way the deal is structured. I’ve seen agreements that were 99% good, but a problem in the other 1% made the whole thing worthless.
    - staticautomatic 7y ago
      Most people who bill at those rates are no better than people who bill $300.
      - wglb 7y ago
        I disagree. It is no more true in my mind than developers paid $200,000 per year are no better than developers who are paid $80,000.
        staticautomatic 7y ago
        In my experience working as a consultant to probably 1000 lawyers over the last 10 years-- from solos to biglaw partners-- it's absolutely true. The most highly paid are not clustered at the far end of the skill/experience bell curve.
    - m0zg 7y ago
      You don't have to use $800+ attorneys. Most people use _no_ lawyers at all, and sign shit without reading. You aren't getting three times the lawyering for three times the price.
    - manigandham 7y ago
      That's high-end. Most of the time, all you need is a mid-level/independent lawyer that charges less than $400/hr or even bills on per-project basis. Cost also doesn't guarantee quality. You're paying for resources, specialization, general counsel that can delegate, and insurance against mistakes. Useful but only when you really need it.
      - slap_shot 7y ago
        I wasn't asserting the validity or the necessity of attorney's at that price. I was simply saying that there is a market rate at that point for attorneys.
  - wglb 7y ago
    My (very good) contract attorney is north of $750/hour. Worth every penny.
sbilstein 7y ago
Cookie cutter legal advice is a landmine/footgun for a business. Even Stripe Atlas will lead you down a dangerous path if you don't check with a lawyer when incorporating. Don't fuck around with business legalities, it ain't worth it. Unfortunately, if you even think about your attorney, you'll be charged for it but the peace of mind is worth it. Having a lawyer you trust, is timely to questions, and works fast is just a layer of stability you need so you can focus on the important parts of a startup. Legalzoom is garbage in this regard.
- mrosett 7y ago
  It sounds like you have a story here about Stripe Atlas, although I'd understand if you're not eager to share.
  - sbilstein 7y ago
    It’s not a bad service at all and the staff are lovely and have fantastic events! However, if you incorporate with them have a lawyer review your docs and ensure you hit all timelines around filing correctly: buying your equity, submitting 83bs, state and federal stuff. The product makes you feel like it’s a one click thing but you need to check in with a lawyer to not forget anything. Most ppl who used Atlas have told me the same. I do recommend Atlas since you will save some money and you get some nice fringe benefits.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
stingrae 7y ago
Isn't that LegalZoom?
- troydavis 7y ago
  Yup, it's pretty close: https://www.legalzoom.com/forms https://www.legalzoom.com/forms, https://www.legalzoom.com/attorneys/legal-documents-review.html https://www.legalzoom.com/attorneys/legal-documents-review.h... RocketLawyer is even closer to that: https://www.rocketlawyer.com/legal-documents-forms.rl/ https://www.rocketlawyer.com/legal-documents-forms.rl/
ska 7y ago
templates for common cases make a lot of sense, but $300/mo isn't going to get anywhere for "all you can eat". $300 might cover a simple contract review, maybe by volume you can cut that in half - so if you are talking 1-2 "tickets" a month, maybe you are covered. Sounds risky to me in a back-of-envelope way. Of course, a bunch of people are trying variations of this idea.
woah 7y ago
This was exactly what atrium was doing except their price point was realistic
nradov 7y ago
Nolo.com already has the templates.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
Digory 7y ago
No, they wouldn’t dominate. You can find online legal guesswork and forms for free. $300/mo is too expensive for that. But getting someone with experience to stand behind it - to risk their license, insurance, and future income — is north of $300/hr even in suburbs and flyover country.

what if a startup charged $300 per month for all you can eat email legal advice backed by a rich library of templates? they would instantly dominate and there are 6M small businesses in the USA alone

berberous 7y ago

You get what you pay for. $300 is 20 minutes of a good lawyer’s time. The economics don’t work.

m0zg 7y ago
More like an hour of a good lawyer time. Mine charges $350/hr. But your point stands. I don't see how his work could be done with "templates". Most of the time I pay him for contract reviews.
- slap_shot 7y ago
  High end firms can easily be $800+/hr for attorneys. I believe Wilson Sonsini was $1200/hr for an attorney I was recommended.
  - gnicholas 7y ago
    Top partners were already at $1,200/hr when I left the law in 2014. They’re now hovering around $2,000/hr.
    - m0zg 7y ago
      You don't need a "top partner" for contract review.
      - gnicholas 7y ago
        That’s true. But for a big enough deal, you want partners to be reviewing — at least at a conceptual level — the way the deal is structured. I’ve seen agreements that were 99% good, but a problem in the other 1% made the whole thing worthless.
  - staticautomatic 7y ago
    Most people who bill at those rates are no better than people who bill $300.
    - wglb 7y ago
      I disagree. It is no more true in my mind than developers paid $200,000 per year are no better than developers who are paid $80,000.
      - staticautomatic 7y ago
        In my experience working as a consultant to probably 1000 lawyers over the last 10 years-- from solos to biglaw partners-- it's absolutely true. The most highly paid are not clustered at the far end of the skill/experience bell curve.
  - m0zg 7y ago
    You don't have to use $800+ attorneys. Most people use _no_ lawyers at all, and sign shit without reading. You aren't getting three times the lawyering for three times the price.
  - manigandham 7y ago
    That's high-end. Most of the time, all you need is a mid-level/independent lawyer that charges less than $400/hr or even bills on per-project basis. Cost also doesn't guarantee quality. You're paying for resources, specialization, general counsel that can delegate, and insurance against mistakes. Useful but only when you really need it.
    - slap_shot 7y ago
      I wasn't asserting the validity or the necessity of attorney's at that price. I was simply saying that there is a market rate at that point for attorneys.
- wglb 7y ago
  My (very good) contract attorney is north of $750/hour. Worth every penny.

sbilstein 7y ago

Cookie cutter legal advice is a landmine/footgun for a business. Even Stripe Atlas will lead you down a dangerous path if you don't check with a lawyer when incorporating. Don't fuck around with business legalities, it ain't worth it. Unfortunately, if you even think about your attorney, you'll be charged for it but the peace of mind is worth it. Having a lawyer you trust, is timely to questions, and works fast is just a layer of stability you need so you can focus on the important parts of a startup. Legalzoom is garbage in this regard.

mrosett 7y ago
It sounds like you have a story here about Stripe Atlas, although I'd understand if you're not eager to share.
- sbilstein 7y ago
  It’s not a bad service at all and the staff are lovely and have fantastic events! However, if you incorporate with them have a lawyer review your docs and ensure you hit all timelines around filing correctly: buying your equity, submitting 83bs, state and federal stuff. The product makes you feel like it’s a one click thing but you need to check in with a lawyer to not forget anything. Most ppl who used Atlas have told me the same. I do recommend Atlas since you will save some money and you get some nice fringe benefits.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]

stingrae 7y ago

Isn't that LegalZoom?

troydavis 7y ago
Yup, it's pretty close: https://www.legalzoom.com/forms https://www.legalzoom.com/forms, https://www.legalzoom.com/attorneys/legal-documents-review.html https://www.legalzoom.com/attorneys/legal-documents-review.h... RocketLawyer is even closer to that: https://www.rocketlawyer.com/legal-documents-forms.rl/ https://www.rocketlawyer.com/legal-documents-forms.rl/

ska 7y ago

templates for common cases make a lot of sense, but $300/mo isn't going to get anywhere for "all you can eat". $300 might cover a simple contract review, maybe by volume you can cut that in half - so if you are talking 1-2 "tickets" a month, maybe you are covered. Sounds risky to me in a back-of-envelope way. Of course, a bunch of people are trying variations of this idea.

woah 7y ago

This was exactly what atrium was doing except their price point was realistic

nradov 7y ago

Nolo.com already has the templates.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

Digory 7y ago

No, they wouldn’t dominate. You can find online legal guesswork and forms for free. $300/mo is too expensive for that. But getting someone with experience to stand behind it - to risk their license, insurance, and future income — is north of $300/hr even in suburbs and flyover country.