5 ms·

Upsides: more secure (in X.org every client can read every other client's keystrokes, pointer position, and do screen grabs), generally smoother rendering, bett

Upsides: more secure (in X.org every client can read every other client's keystrokes, pointer position, and do screen grabs), generally smoother rendering, better support for mixed-DPI setups. Current downsides: worse support for screen recording/sharing (e.g. not supported in Skype), a bug in the compositor (e.g. GNOME Mutter) can bring your whole session down, not-as-good NVIDIA support (also depending on the compositor). I have been using Wayland for two years or so an wouldn't want to go back. I do miss wide screen sharing support, because I am working remotely and Skype is the primary means of communication.

jchw 7y ago
Isn’t modern Skype using WebRTC that would be supported at least in beta with xdg-desktop-portal?
tsar9x 7y ago
Did you try to use WebRTC PipeWire for screen sharing?
- danieldk 7y ago
  Yes, it works with some applications, like Jitsi. No luck with Skype so far.
TacticalCoder 7y ago
Haven't switched yet. Under Wayland, can users which are not owning the session display an app on the Wayland session/server? (e.g. under X I can do something like "xhost +" and then have any user display an app on the X server). I'm not asking about the security implications of doing that under X (as you already mentioned, X is less secure and an app can read another app's screen content etc.): just if it's doable or not under Wayland?
- floatboth 7y ago
  Whoever has access to your wayland socket can display applications. Root already has access to all the things so for running apps as root (e.g. wireshark) you just need to configure sudo/doas/whatever-you-use to keep XDG_RUNTIME_DIR and WAYLAND_DISPLAY. e.g. in my doas.conf: permit setenv { HOME LC_ALL TERM XDG_RUNTIME_DIR WAYLAND_DISPLAY } greg as root and I can just run 'doas wireshark'.
  - TacticalCoder 7y ago
    Very interesting, thanks a lot. I'll definitely give Wayland a try soon!
  - Bnshsysjab 7y ago
    What about running a GUI from a local or remote ssh session? Eg previously I would execute DISPLAY=:0 mplayer foo.avi to play remotely or ssh -X root@foo xcalc to display xcalc on my local monitor but execute on rhost
    - klardotsh 7y ago
      To some extent you're looking for Waypipe, which aims to bring the X-style network transparency model to Wayland apps: https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/mstoeckl/waypipe https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/mstoeckl/waypipe
    - GrayShade 7y ago
      X forwarding works just fine with Xwayland.
slightwinder 7y ago
> Upsides: more secure (in X.org every client can read every other client's keystrokes, pointer position, and do screen grabs) What if i want this as a feature? Does wayland allow this per app?
- sp332 7y ago
  The screen-grabbing app would have to interface with the compositor instead of the display server. For example, krfb is adding Wayland screen sharing support with KDE.
  - jandrese 7y ago
    Is this better from a security standpoint? Does the compositor verify clients in a more secure fashion? Presumably screenshotting is still a thing on Wayland so this has to be a solved problem.
    - Bnshsysjab 7y ago
      The point is apps can’t grab other apps input/output. If you run the app in an otherwise secure manner (eg execute in a perfect security chroot/container). A malicious application on your host can still do anything at the executing privilege level (read .ssh, inject malware into .bashrc) but can’t sniff your gksudo password
    - michaelmrose 7y ago
      Why would you assume it's a solved problem? Basically every compositor has to implement this feature.
    - kelnos 7y ago
      The idea is that the compositor can then pop up a dialog saying "App X wants to record your screen. Allow?"
      - sp332 7y ago
        It could also limit recording to certain windows, or heck even redraw the whole screen any way it wants, like pretending sensitive windows aren't there.
jhoechtl 7y ago
> a bug in the compositor (e.g. GNOME Mutter) can bring your whole session down, True for Gnome, no issue for KDE. Their arguably better design decisions led them to proceed slower though.
smt923 7y ago
I've found wayland still has strange input, if there's a lot of CPU usage going on (something compiling or whatever) then the mouse and keyboard input will 'lag' and get stuck, plus it feels worse in games to me but the benefits seem really good, I hope wayland can keep improving so I can switch without it feeling worse for me

jchw 7y ago

Isn’t modern Skype using WebRTC that would be supported at least in beta with xdg-desktop-portal?

tsar9x 7y ago

Did you try to use WebRTC PipeWire for screen sharing?

danieldk 7y ago
Yes, it works with some applications, like Jitsi. No luck with Skype so far.

TacticalCoder 7y ago

Haven't switched yet. Under Wayland, can users which are not owning the session display an app on the Wayland session/server? (e.g. under X I can do something like "xhost +" and then have any user display an app on the X server). I'm not asking about the security implications of doing that under X (as you already mentioned, X is less secure and an app can read another app's screen content etc.): just if it's doable or not under Wayland?

floatboth 7y ago
Whoever has access to your wayland socket can display applications. Root already has access to all the things so for running apps as root (e.g. wireshark) you just need to configure sudo/doas/whatever-you-use to keep XDG_RUNTIME_DIR and WAYLAND_DISPLAY. e.g. in my doas.conf: permit setenv { HOME LC_ALL TERM XDG_RUNTIME_DIR WAYLAND_DISPLAY } greg as root and I can just run 'doas wireshark'.
- TacticalCoder 7y ago
  Very interesting, thanks a lot. I'll definitely give Wayland a try soon!
- Bnshsysjab 7y ago
  What about running a GUI from a local or remote ssh session? Eg previously I would execute DISPLAY=:0 mplayer foo.avi to play remotely or ssh -X root@foo xcalc to display xcalc on my local monitor but execute on rhost
  - klardotsh 7y ago
    To some extent you're looking for Waypipe, which aims to bring the X-style network transparency model to Wayland apps: https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/mstoeckl/waypipe https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/mstoeckl/waypipe
  - GrayShade 7y ago
    X forwarding works just fine with Xwayland.

slightwinder 7y ago

> Upsides: more secure (in X.org every client can read every other client's keystrokes, pointer position, and do screen grabs) What if i want this as a feature? Does wayland allow this per app?

sp332 7y ago
The screen-grabbing app would have to interface with the compositor instead of the display server. For example, krfb is adding Wayland screen sharing support with KDE.
- jandrese 7y ago
  Is this better from a security standpoint? Does the compositor verify clients in a more secure fashion? Presumably screenshotting is still a thing on Wayland so this has to be a solved problem.
  - Bnshsysjab 7y ago
    The point is apps can’t grab other apps input/output. If you run the app in an otherwise secure manner (eg execute in a perfect security chroot/container). A malicious application on your host can still do anything at the executing privilege level (read .ssh, inject malware into .bashrc) but can’t sniff your gksudo password
  - michaelmrose 7y ago
    Why would you assume it's a solved problem? Basically every compositor has to implement this feature.
  - kelnos 7y ago
    The idea is that the compositor can then pop up a dialog saying "App X wants to record your screen. Allow?"
    - sp332 7y ago
      It could also limit recording to certain windows, or heck even redraw the whole screen any way it wants, like pretending sensitive windows aren't there.

jhoechtl 7y ago

> a bug in the compositor (e.g. GNOME Mutter) can bring your whole session down, True for Gnome, no issue for KDE. Their arguably better design decisions led them to proceed slower though.

smt923 7y ago

I've found wayland still has strange input, if there's a lot of CPU usage going on (something compiling or whatever) then the mouse and keyboard input will 'lag' and get stuck, plus it feels worse in games to me but the benefits seem really good, I hope wayland can keep improving so I can switch without it feeling worse for me