8 ms·

At this point Wayland is nothing more than a 10 year old, over-hyped, tech-demo. Why should Nvidia care about sub 1% of a sub 1% market?

by sprash 7y ago

sterwill 7y ago
I use Wayland with GNOME all day every day and it works fine. There are still minor issues versus legacy X, but it's certainly more than a "tech-demo".
- dsego 7y ago
  Is it finally possible to share the screen on a video conference call?
  - jhoward321 7y ago
    Unless it's changed in the last month or so, no.
    - tpopela 7y ago
      Exactly nothing changed last month, because it works for quite some time. See https://jgrulich.cz/2018/07/02/screen-sharing-support-in-webrtc-for-wayland-sessions/ https://jgrulich.cz/2018/07/02/screen-sharing-support-in-web... and https://jgrulich.cz/2018/07/04/how-to-enable-and-use-screen-sharing-on-wayland/ https://jgrulich.cz/2018/07/04/how-to-enable-and-use-screen-... and https://twitter.com/tomaspopela/status/1105740090784006144 https://twitter.com/tomaspopela/status/1105740090784006144. Also we are currently working on some improvements to improve the UX - https://chromium-review.googlesource.com/c/chromium/src/+/1942327/ https://chromium-review.googlesource.com/c/chromium/src/+/19...
  - fourmyle 7y ago
    I use Sway but what I do is use Google Hangouts in Chromium (Xwayland) instead of Firefox (Wayland) when I want to screen share. I heard Zoom doesn't work yet though.
  - Polylactic_acid 7y ago
    If the software supports it, yes. Most commercial programs have not been updated to support it yet but the feature is there.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
- snarfy 7y ago
  Does VNC or RDP work now? That's what is keeping me back.
  - any1 7y ago
    Yes, both Gnome and Sway have VNC: https://wiki.gnome.org/Projects/Mutter/RemoteDesktop https://wiki.gnome.org/Projects/Mutter/RemoteDesktop, https://github.com/any1/wayvnc https://github.com/any1/wayvnc. Weston has RDP, and there are efforts being made to also add VNC.
  - sterwill 7y ago
    I don't need VNC or RDP, so I don't know. I know that sharing other windows or my whole desktop in Google Hangouts doesn't work, but I rarely need that. I figure I'll log back in with an X session if I need that.
bitwize 7y ago
Anybody with any sort of graphical expertise on Linux with the exception of Keith Packard is working on Wayland, not X. Wayland is still the future.
oehtXRwMkIs 7y ago
Seems like an out of touch opinion, I'm using sway and very satisfied with it.
- jsjddbbwj 7y ago
  If you use sway (an i3 clone), how can you say something is out of touch? If anything your use case is absolutely in the minority
  - jniedrauer 7y ago
    Sway is a pretty popular project, and gaining momentum. I also use sway for all of my machines (including workstation and personal laptop) and am quite happy with it.
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 7y ago
  Someone who uses their GUI as the worlds most over-engineered tmux session should be careful about calling others "out of touch".
DCKing 7y ago
This is a strange opinion to express in general, but really strange on this news. Linux hasn't had hardware video acceleration in a browser for over a decade when Windows and macOS did have it, precisely because it was too hard to support this use case within the restrictions of X11. The buffer sharing trickery, combined with having to render web pages and a browser around it, was just too hard to solve for years (within the limited attention X11 based desktops get in general). Linux finally has a graphics stack on which this isn't as much of a problem, and it's received enough adoption that Firefox is now making changes for it. And on that news you decide to comment that Wayland is a tech demo? This news should tell you it's completely the opposite! Wayland seems to be finally delivering.
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 7y ago
  Parent is kinda right. Wayland was supposed to be this great next-gen display protocol for Linux, finally doing away with the cruft of X and thereby making development faster and easier while bringing modern features and yadda yadda. Instead it has taken 10 years to kinda-sorta catch up to X and is still behind its equivalents on Win/Mac.
  - DCKing 7y ago
    Wayland has a lot of problems, but they're adoption problems. 1) Wayland isn't a replacement for all of X.org. It's a replacement for much of X11, the protocol. "Wayland is just a protocol" - there's no wayland binary on your computer like there is an xorg binary. All the problems/limitations people commonly perceive with Wayland are actually problems/limitations within Wayland implementations like Mutter (Gnome) or KWin (KDE) and lacking application support. There's really not that much that "Wayland" as a project could deliver as it's just a protocol [1]! 2) Replacing something like your entire graphics stack requires a widespread, coordinated effort to unify the various Linux distro's under it. That widespread coordinated effort is not actually possible in the (by "design") extremely fragmented Linux market. The only approach is to slowly let Wayland implementations evolve, and there we have it. Hot take: Wayland will not fully replace X11 the coming 10 years. There is no fundamental solution to the two problems above. Many popular desktops (Xfce, Cinnamon) have no plan to support Wayland at all. Some don't even want to. In the future, there will be choices for graphics stacks on Linux leading to further fragmentation. [1]: The projects that should deliver here are: Gnome, KDE, other open source desktops. Although I think using Gnome with Wayland is superior in many ways to X11, it still has certain quite major shortcomings. It's also application toolkits: Qt and Gtk work luckily, but Electron is waiting for some Chrome renovations before supporting Wayland, and then there's stuff like Wine and Java where the refactor/reward balance simply doesn't favor them. And sometimes applications have to be updated to stop relying on using hardcoded X11 stuff, and use agnostic Gtk/Qt/Freedesktop functionality. There's a lot of history with X11 that we have to move away from, and the incentives and coordination only allow for slow movement.

At this point Wayland is nothing more than a 10 year old, over-hyped, tech-demo. Why should Nvidia care about sub 1% of a sub 1% market?

by sprash 7y ago

At this point Wayland is nothing more than a 10 year old, over-hyped, tech-demo. Why should Nvidia care about sub 1% of a sub 1% market?

sterwill 7y ago

I use Wayland with GNOME all day every day and it works fine. There are still minor issues versus legacy X, but it's certainly more than a "tech-demo".

dsego 7y ago
Is it finally possible to share the screen on a video conference call?
- jhoward321 7y ago
  Unless it's changed in the last month or so, no.
  - tpopela 7y ago
    Exactly nothing changed last month, because it works for quite some time. See https://jgrulich.cz/2018/07/02/screen-sharing-support-in-webrtc-for-wayland-sessions/ https://jgrulich.cz/2018/07/02/screen-sharing-support-in-web... and https://jgrulich.cz/2018/07/04/how-to-enable-and-use-screen-sharing-on-wayland/ https://jgrulich.cz/2018/07/04/how-to-enable-and-use-screen-... and https://twitter.com/tomaspopela/status/1105740090784006144 https://twitter.com/tomaspopela/status/1105740090784006144. Also we are currently working on some improvements to improve the UX - https://chromium-review.googlesource.com/c/chromium/src/+/1942327/ https://chromium-review.googlesource.com/c/chromium/src/+/19...
- fourmyle 7y ago
  I use Sway but what I do is use Google Hangouts in Chromium (Xwayland) instead of Firefox (Wayland) when I want to screen share. I heard Zoom doesn't work yet though.
- Polylactic_acid 7y ago
  If the software supports it, yes. Most commercial programs have not been updated to support it yet but the feature is there.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
snarfy 7y ago
Does VNC or RDP work now? That's what is keeping me back.
- any1 7y ago
  Yes, both Gnome and Sway have VNC: https://wiki.gnome.org/Projects/Mutter/RemoteDesktop https://wiki.gnome.org/Projects/Mutter/RemoteDesktop, https://github.com/any1/wayvnc https://github.com/any1/wayvnc. Weston has RDP, and there are efforts being made to also add VNC.
- sterwill 7y ago
  I don't need VNC or RDP, so I don't know. I know that sharing other windows or my whole desktop in Google Hangouts doesn't work, but I rarely need that. I figure I'll log back in with an X session if I need that.

bitwize 7y ago

Anybody with any sort of graphical expertise on Linux with the exception of Keith Packard is working on Wayland, not X. Wayland is still the future.

oehtXRwMkIs 7y ago

Seems like an out of touch opinion, I'm using sway and very satisfied with it.

jsjddbbwj 7y ago
If you use sway (an i3 clone), how can you say something is out of touch? If anything your use case is absolutely in the minority
- jniedrauer 7y ago
  Sway is a pretty popular project, and gaining momentum. I also use sway for all of my machines (including workstation and personal laptop) and am quite happy with it.
AnIdiotOnTheNet 7y ago
Someone who uses their GUI as the worlds most over-engineered tmux session should be careful about calling others "out of touch".

DCKing 7y ago

This is a strange opinion to express in general, but really strange on this news. Linux hasn't had hardware video acceleration in a browser for over a decade when Windows and macOS did have it, precisely because it was too hard to support this use case within the restrictions of X11. The buffer sharing trickery, combined with having to render web pages and a browser around it, was just too hard to solve for years (within the limited attention X11 based desktops get in general). Linux finally has a graphics stack on which this isn't as much of a problem, and it's received enough adoption that Firefox is now making changes for it. And on that news you decide to comment that Wayland is a tech demo? This news should tell you it's completely the opposite! Wayland seems to be finally delivering.

AnIdiotOnTheNet 7y ago
Parent is kinda right. Wayland was supposed to be this great next-gen display protocol for Linux, finally doing away with the cruft of X and thereby making development faster and easier while bringing modern features and yadda yadda. Instead it has taken 10 years to kinda-sorta catch up to X and is still behind its equivalents on Win/Mac.
- DCKing 7y ago
  Wayland has a lot of problems, but they're adoption problems. 1) Wayland isn't a replacement for all of X.org. It's a replacement for much of X11, the protocol. "Wayland is just a protocol" - there's no wayland binary on your computer like there is an xorg binary. All the problems/limitations people commonly perceive with Wayland are actually problems/limitations within Wayland implementations like Mutter (Gnome) or KWin (KDE) and lacking application support. There's really not that much that "Wayland" as a project could deliver as it's just a protocol [1]! 2) Replacing something like your entire graphics stack requires a widespread, coordinated effort to unify the various Linux distro's under it. That widespread coordinated effort is not actually possible in the (by "design") extremely fragmented Linux market. The only approach is to slowly let Wayland implementations evolve, and there we have it. Hot take: Wayland will not fully replace X11 the coming 10 years. There is no fundamental solution to the two problems above. Many popular desktops (Xfce, Cinnamon) have no plan to support Wayland at all. Some don't even want to. In the future, there will be choices for graphics stacks on Linux leading to further fragmentation. [1]: The projects that should deliver here are: Gnome, KDE, other open source desktops. Although I think using Gnome with Wayland is superior in many ways to X11, it still has certain quite major shortcomings. It's also application toolkits: Qt and Gtk work luckily, but Electron is waiting for some Chrome renovations before supporting Wayland, and then there's stuff like Wine and Java where the refactor/reward balance simply doesn't favor them. And sometimes applications have to be updated to stop relying on using hardcoded X11 stuff, and use agnostic Gtk/Qt/Freedesktop functionality. There's a lot of history with X11 that we have to move away from, and the incentives and coordination only allow for slow movement.