14 ms·

Wicked problem

120 points by ivankirigin 7y ago

kangnkodos 7y ago
In Boston, people call this type of of problem a "wicked bad problem".
- arawde 7y ago
  not a "wicked hahd problem"?
  - munk-a 7y ago
    Oh, and let's not forget the advanced form of this problem - the "supah wick'd hahd prahblem"... for general information "wicked" is usually a single syllable in Boston.
svnpenn 7y ago
As I have gotten older I try to recognize these when they present themselves, and proceed to avoid them at all costs.
beeschlenker 7y ago
So you're telling us the DowJones is down 4,000 this week because of a sickness with a death rate of 2.3%...are you sure it is not something else? Chancellor Merkel in latest update...additionally within first two minutes apparently VID_20200117_081906.mp3 in zip file 8Jan25JanMp3Conv. Global stock markets have lost $6 trillion in value in six days. It possibly because Soros, Putin, and others are moving money out of the US so that it cannot be taken in lawsuits resulting from their involvement in the story below. Unless of course you believe it is because of COVID19 aka Coronavirus, a sickness with a 2.3% death rate. See below: http://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2020/02/study-72000-covid-19-patients-finds-23-death-rate http://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2020/02/study-720... Attorney General Barr is not resigning; not before President Trump does. Barr is the same as Mueller,Pelosi,Schiff, & Nadler: feign opposition to cover the true motive of obstruction to keep Trump in power. Supreme Court Justice Alito & FBI Deputy Director Wray also on board. See latest updates "Impeachment" Is A Diversion And Delay - Part II: Blocking of the "impeachment" witnesses was collusion planned before the new year. Listen to an FBI agent's disclosure from January 1, 2O2O here. The President was to resign late summer securing election for DNC. See latest updates. Here is the zip file, which was also made available in the 3Jan2O2O update. The file within is VID_20200101_201948.mp3. Turn up the volume and put on headphones. BB10Mp3Footage31Dec1Jan.zip 122.4mb https://drive.google.com/file/d/1IXOOhQhHybwky8Z5pGdr9ZXhWpIUazmi/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/1IXOOhQhHybwky8Z5pGdr9ZXhWpI... The dialogue about the impeachment starts near the beginning. Having Biden in the White House is as good as Trump or anyone else in their organization. Obviously Schiff and Nadler pledged their allegiance to the organization by raping boys on the record, with their task being to drag out an impeachment designed to obstruct and delay any real efforts to remove the President, thus keeping Trump in power. The witness blocking was to cause an apparent uproar delaying things with legal actions until late Summer. Soon after, the President would resign, leaving any other candidate with not enough time or support to compete with an opportunistic Biden, who is as good as Trump or any other Illuminati friendly politician in the Presidency. 172 page PDF [last update: March|3|2O2O]: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1S7T_kDv48E40eHzus6CTXHxcm0W2qxVc/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/1S7T_kDv48E40eHzus6CTXHxcm0W... Previously reported: \Wag The Dog: first was feigned impeachment hearings meant to obstruct, now an attack on Iranians in Iraq. Here is what they are trying to distract from & cover up to retain power. $100+ billion in bribes to the highest offices in this country. 815+ deaths from child rapes to prove loyalty! See the latest PDF updates: FBI Director Wray, AG Barr, SoD Shanahan, & SoS Pompeo each raped boys and were paid billions in bribes for a Soros & Koch funded child rape org. So did Trump & his "impeachment" team Nadler,Schiff,Mueller.So did media moguls Redstone,Murdoch,Moonves. What are they trying to set up? Who can arrest them since they are all bribed and in on it ? Their strategy to stay in every office and obstruct until forced to leave no matter what. Feigning impeachment: see page 13O. Hoiohiuhrfe, jknbjkevew, vrmnowenbgewrg. port. \\if;Download the video/audio file, put on headphones and turn up the volume. You will hear these people committing these crimes. Audio was broadcast into my apartment by outdated surveillance equipment illegally embedded within my walls. This very same technology was being used to broadcast me to the internet for five years without my consent. I own this footage. Please use this to prosecute all found within. Note:: I am obliviously speaking throughout the video, and it can be quite loud at times relative to the desired content. The are dozens more links, including these, that can be found in this PDF that was last updated on 3 Mar 2O2O: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1S7T_kDv48E40eHzus6CTXHxcm0W2qxVc/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/1S7T_kDv48E40eHzus6CTXHxcm0W... All members of the "Illuminati"; "....an underground organization of homosexuals and child rapists..." (from pg 26: Barack Obama with Jack Dorsey). President Donald Trump: Demands a $4 billion dollar bribe here at 10:18am 4Jan2019: 3JanCh3_900-1100.avi https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Grdr8xF2psKNsuYlEnl9dIRV-77YG0Vr/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Grdr8xF2psKNsuYlEnl9dIRV-77... 3JanCh2_900-1100-avi https://drive.google.com/file/d/1LUmVygl_q0XVs8h2cWr8jZl-24fY0vBB/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/1LUmVygl_q0XVs8h2cWr8jZl-24f... 3JanCh4_1000-1100.mp3 https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ZpP1pJbJakBgg-y-MWNozTxp3wJojHge/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ZpP1pJbJakBgg-y-MWNozTxp3wJ... President Trump rapes and kills twelve boys, including five boys in a "who can rape five boys to death the fastest" game: 14JanCh3_600.mp3 https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ufPmglde9Mep0m6xYMJ9c4TWTjj258zB/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ufPmglde9Mep0m6xYMJ9c4TWTjj... 14JanCh2_600-700.mp3 https://drive.google.com/file/d/136qLJdEn8eCs9tI4QtIxl4opW_Lw_gCF/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/136qLJdEn8eCs9tI4QtIxl4opW_L... Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi: Accepting a $3 billion dollar bribe at 10:33 am on the 17 Jan 2019 to ensure Asian boys can get through the border at "Monterrey" undocumented to be raped: 17JanCh3_949-1100.avi https://drive.google.com/file/d/1eodHu4o5Cm3xEWhDqipSuTj-M1CZUvmE/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/1eodHu4o5Cm3xEWhDqipSuTj-M1C... 17JanCh4_1017-1100.avi https://drive.google.com/file/d/1y-nWEQbempkVZSz230j9wTyduZNjDmnk/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/1y-nWEQbempkVZSz230j9wTyduZN... Speaker Nancy Pelosi also "preps" boys with First Lady Melania Trump, defined as in she performs oral sex on the boys’ penis and anus, as a child rapist like Henry Porter would, while trying to remove fecal matter from the boy prior to handing them over to be raped and then subsequently murdered, for Supreme Court Justice Samuel Alito, who apparently decides he would rather just have ten billion dollars instead. US Attorney for Western New York James Kennedy rapes these boys instead: 12JanCh3_1533-1638.mp3 Yopujwmcwef, cwhbenclewgve. https://drive.google.com/file/d/1AgFkDsbPbI4b5Xd3Wbz2EVNNx25kW2Oz/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/1AgFkDsbPbI4b5Xd3Wbz2EVNNx25... Attorney General William Barr with FBI Deputy Director Christopher Wray raped and killed boys for billions in bribes in Buffalo, New York on the 17th Jan2019 at 7:50am: 18JanCh4_700mp3 https://drive.google.com/file/d/1UIdZkS5ZVksZdHYsnHk2t5losi0N0Bp7/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/1UIdZkS5ZVksZdHYsnHk2t5losi0... 18JanCh2_700.mp3 https://drive.google.com/file/d/1DFK8IAxm5pQVqZv9L518nfgP7_odB2Um/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/1DFK8IAxm5pQVqZv9L518nfgP7_o... 18JanCh3_725-.mp3 https://drive.google.com/file/d/1DG5ej59Ic8RT9UhbyMdwT0BDcKIifGGm/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/1DG5ej59Ic8RT9UhbyMdwT0BDcKI... Secretary of State Michael Pompeo and Secretary of Defense Patrick Shanahan each raped and killed boys on 5Jan'19 at 17:39 for billion$ in bribes:. dsavf awdva. r weqvvrvq. 5JanCh2_1721-1818.mp3 https://drive.google.com/file/d/1eSlD4otX4KZqWXboQM92Mu-6J02Mjwrg/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/1eSlD4otX4KZqWXboQM92Mu-6J02... Leaders of the "impeachment" effort Jerrold Nadler, Robert Mueller, and Adam Schiff all rape and kill boys between 11:20pm and 1:10am: 14JanCh4_2300-0000.mp3 Nadler starts at twenty minutes in- https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Kuvv2Zmbw5Jw7onbRI2hCZ0M8FU66GuU/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Kuvv2Zmbw5Jw7onbRI2hCZ0M8FU... 14JanCh2_2304-2359.mp3 https://drive.google.com/file/d/1nofp5xF-aXXcCSgQVwj30KlzE9WLr1x1/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/1nofp5xF-aXXcCSgQVwj30KlzE9W... Mueller at 12:25am, next is Schiff who starts at 12:55-ish: 15JanCh2_000-100.mp3 https://drive.google.com/file/d/1EsmHfguwBuo2PbavJ1WYyhiML62tgCkj/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/1EsmHfguwBuo2PbavJ1WYyhiML62... 15JanCh2_100-200.mp3 https://drive.google.com/file/d/1NZnWRnBryalNQu2yJmfJUdS2pA_rGSFH/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/1NZnWRnBryalNQu2yJmfJUdS2pA_... 15JanCh4_000-100.mp3 https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ZEDJR6jb6ARpcNnWJTokBUKb2J2OQnwZ/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ZEDJR6jb6ARpcNnWJTokBUKb2J2... 15JanCh4_100-200.mp3 https://drive.google.com/file/d/173aYWvWHH4VGht1h_2nM0IMdw746LeCL/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/173aYWvWHH4VGht1h_2nM0IMdw74... Complete Media Protection: Lester Holt, of NBC NightlyNews, apparently a member of the Illuminati since the 1980's, along with ABC Nightly News lead anchor David Muir, stop over to the Porter studio in Buffalo, New York on 14Jan2019 at 5:00 am. They both rape and kill about two dozen boys by 6:00 am. Muir starts around 5:15am, then Holt about 5:38 am. Multi-billionaire Rupert Murdoch, owner of News Corp and also Fox Corporation, takes his turn after Holt. Video links below: 14JanCh3_500-601.avi https://drive.google.com/file/d/1i7NKepeyG_FfdQRrM7KsnFOZOOX3o7UL/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/1i7NKepeyG_FfdQRrM7KsnFOZOOX... 14JanCh2_530-600.avi https://drive.google.com/file/d/1NZzgN5ilI7ToroU5cfqMaL4o2u1RwidV/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/1NZzgN5ilI7ToroU5cfqMaL4o2u1... Adding to the media protection and reason this is not picked up by the media, CBS and Viacom owner Sumner Redstone and Leslie Moonves rape and kill boys following the President. 14JanCh3_700.avi https://drive.google.com/file/d/10XDw6x3ldnnQiq7oIjpdYVENyXaB4aI0/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/10XDw6x3ldnnQiq7oIjpdYVENyXa... 14JanCh2_700-800.avi https://drive.google.com/file/d/1NS_e6AzEZ05wnfljkGMETGU5CWYKfRDp/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/1NS_e6AzEZ05wnfljkGMETGU5CWY... 172 page PDF [last updated: MAR|3|2O2O]: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1S7T_kDv48E40eHzus6CTXHxcm0W2qxVc/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/1S7T_kDv48E40eHzus6CTXHxcm0W... \\. Please repost in USA! Post gets censored in US Recently more relevant: From page 49, Senator Mitch McConnell: At 1632 Senator Mitch McConnell checks into the Porter camera system inquiring if he can be part of the "eviction" for $10 million dollars. He is informed by group members that there are enough people for the event already and his participation is not necessary. At 1634 McConnell states "I fucked 15 kids, how am I not getting paid by you?" He is dismissed by Donald Reeves with "I think that will be all Mr. McConnell." 13JanCh3_1600-1700.avi https://drive.google.com/file/d/1L7bqOpvaEWmLiJpMhJNQDrfsQAHtsX8-/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/1L7bqOpvaEWmLiJpMhJNQDrfsQAH...
acidburnNSA 7y ago
Alvin Weinberg published his "Science and Trans-Science" article on roughly this topic in 1972 [1]. He said: "Many of the issues that lie at the interface between science and politics involve questions that can be stated in scientific terms but that are in principle beyond the proficiency of science to answer." "The protagonists often ask for the impossible: scientific answers to questions that are trans-scientific" Pretty good stuff. [1] https://science.sciencemag.org/content/sci/177/4045/211.full.pdf https://science.sciencemag.org/content/sci/177/4045/211.full...
- bjt2n3904 7y ago
  Absolutely fantastic article. The protagonists, in my experience, don't understand this nuance very well, and are quick to label you as "anti-science".
hirundo 7y ago
Wickedness in a problem domain is an argument for a competitive, decentralized approach, in order to more rapidly search a larger solution space. Yet instead we seem to demand gordian or manichean solutions and strong centralized institutions to implement them. When the trains don't run on time, instead of seeking out a fray of Dagny Taggarts, we look for one Mussolini. And so wicked (hard) social problems beget disproportionately wicked (counter productive) answers.
- kiliantics 7y ago
  You are framing this as an either-or situation but, if you read the wiki page, there are 3 strategies to dealing with wicked problems and you missed the "collaborative" category. It's clear the authoritative "mussolini" solution is undesirable from a liberal perspective in which we prefer to have a shared say over how we organise things. However, it's also increasingly clear that the way we implement the competitive strategy -- you so aptly suggest the Ayn Rand protagonist as the better option -- is also flawed and incapable of solving these difficult problems. The nature of modern capitalism is to tend toward monopolistic/oligopolistic dynamics in the market, which ultimately leads to a concentration of power and a lack of shared control over such issues. Our economy has only ever made our impact on the environment worse and worse, and is driving us ever closer to catastrophic climate change. Not to mention other examples, such as healthcare, etc. Why not try something "collaborative", where instead of hoping for either a top-down governmental, or top-down corporate solution to problems, we truly decentralise power and give all people agency and freedom to live in this world? For instance, if we stopped letting the profit motive squeeze us for every possible thing, people would have more free time with lower living expenses and less demanding jobs, and could spend more time repairing/restoring possessions, rather than buying new, or gardening and cooking, rather than eating out, or cycling everywhere, rather than taking cars.
  - hirundo 7y ago
    Because private property is the sin qua non of decentralized decision making. It is in fact a bundle of rights to make your own decisions about the disposition of things. Anything short of it is also less decentralized. Collaboration with less competition has fewer independent decision makers, and therefore searches the solution space more slowly. Creative destruction is ugly as hell. It incorporates all of evil. But it is also the engine of adaptation; the inverse of lithification. To the extent that we limit it, we limit the parallelism of adaptation. The fact that businesses can be so easily destroyed outweighs all of their manifest ugliness. Very few noncompetitive institutions have that feature. Fast search means rapid destruction and creation. There is a very real human cost to that, and many, maybe most people will never be convinced that it's worth it.
invalidOrTaken 7y ago
Has recently been popularized by the book Range, for which I'm grateful, because now I can talk about this stuff with my family. There is also something of a "wicked problem of wicked problems," which is that wicked problems are very hard to talk about---one of their survival traits is that they're unappealing to talk about, because by definition you can't "solve" them easily.
tantalor 7y ago
Is telling whether something is a wicked problem a wicked problem?
- IshKebab 7y ago
  Based on this Wikipedia article, yes and no. It has multiple conflicting and vague definitions for whatever the hell a "wicked problem" is. It's like they read the definition of REST and thought "I think we can go vaguer".
- samatman 7y ago
  Totally irrelevant, but when you put the string "wicked problem" together twice like that, my brain refuses to scan it as anything other than a problem with a wick. Something related to semantic satiation, I think.
- mrkeen 7y ago
  No or maybe. Just like a bloom filter
hosh 7y ago
Which cynefin (domain) would this belong to? Does it describe a class of problems that is not easily categorized within the Cynefin framework?
- aalhour 7y ago
  As per Dave Snowden, Wicked Problems lie in the Unordered side of Cynefin and mainly in the Complex domain (if they come from sociology).
ssivark 7y ago
Just this week I was reading “Notes on the Synthesis of Form” by Christopher Alexander (CA), which in someways kickstarted the “design thinking” craze. Later on, CA recanted many of his ideas about the systematization of design, and converged with Rittel regarding “wicked problems”. That said, the first half of the above book is still a fantastic read on why wicked problems tend to be hard when attempted in “self conscious mode”. One of the most thoughtful pieces I’ve read in a while... and it’s an intuitive, breezy and relatively short (for a book) read. Here’s Rittel’s seminal paper on problems with the “planning/design“ approach towards wicked problems: https://archive.epa.gov/reg3esd1/data/web/pdf/rittel%2bwebber%2bdilemmas%2bgeneral_theory_of_planning.pdf https://archive.epa.gov/reg3esd1/data/web/pdf/rittel%2bwebbe...
dr_dshiv 7y ago
I really get irritated by the use of the term. I've heard it too much in the wrong situations. Use with caution.
- munk-a 7y ago
  As a person who grew up in Boston, it is a really confusing term due to just sounding like a generally hard problem... which appears to be a pretty decent approximation of the term. The examples given in this article provide both clarity and additional confusion with a focus on being large uncertain (and thus generally hard to solve) problems.
mkchoi212 7y ago
How is the AIDS pandemic an example of a wicked problem? One of the definitions of a wicked problem is "Wicked problems have no stopping rule.". But the stopping rule for the AIDS pandemic seems to be creating a cure for AIDS / eliminating all cases of AIDS. Am I missing something really obvious here??
- myhf 7y ago
  If you are operating within the scope of a single country, eliminating all cases within that country would not be a stopping rule.
  - mkchoi212 7y ago
    Oh, I meant eliminating all cases on earth :P
  - TeMPOraL 7y ago
    But that itself doesn't make it a wicked problem. It means the solution needs to involve broadening the scope of your operations. In case of AIDS, it would be an international cooperation. A real-life example is the efforts to eradicate smallpox and polio; the first one succeeded, the second one was almost done but hit some serious problems with international cooperation - regardless, this demonstrates the problem, while hard, isn't wicked.
aaron695 7y ago
It's a great example because of a totally stupid name, a really important concept isn't being adequately explained or understood. Meaningless garbage like "Black Swan" is spouted all the time and sets people back, just because it's a cool name with a cool story Yet Wicked problems are our most important issues at Micro and Macro levels, you will have this problem, but people can't tackle them properly because we haven't abstracted the framework in a cool way. I also think the definition needs to be tightened. But I honestly think no one wants to work in a meta field called 'Wicked problems' I wonder if in other languages this is tackled better?
- Forge36 7y ago
  I swore these were called "hard problems" based on the rough definition: it's a problem whose solution only becomes obvious after a failed attempt at finding the solution. This fits nicely with the PDF text post also currently on the front page. The best solution for exporting the output text is simply to OCR what is visually seen as an image even though the text is present in the data (because white text on a white background wouldn't be wanted by most users) Therin: The solution also changes based on use case!
  - aaron695 7y ago
    > it's a problem whose solution only becomes obvious after a failed attempt I think if the solution ever become obvious it's not a wicked problem. You can solve them sometimes, but they involve large amounts of waste and time. And you never know how to have done them better. That's my understanding. My starting solution to the PDF is to give the user both OCR and text and let them chose. I don't think it's Wicked, but I do think no one is solving it properly along clearly viable lines. I also think there is a clear solution to force companies to convert PDF's to text properly. So even at a higher level I don't think it's Wicked, just the culture is not correct.
- invalidOrTaken 7y ago
  >But I honestly think no one wants to work in a meta field called 'Wicked problems' I would love to work on this, but one of the things that makes wicked problems wicked is that their solutions are often incredibly unpopular. "Ill news is an ill guest, Gandalf Stormcrow."
jadbox 7y ago
I'm really happy this topic is surfancing on HN as I've made it my mission to build experiments to try to tackle social wicked problems. Dinnertable Chat is an online chatroulette-style conference matchmaking system based on mixing people based on same and different viewpoints. The same idea could be used to mix people on any category (by skill, field, etc): https://www.dinnertable.chat/about https://www.dinnertable.chat/about The Mix Opinions service matches people in physical spaces by dividing people up into groups, such that each group has maximized viewpoint diversity of each of the members. I could also adapt this to be applied to online conferencing and maximize on both diversity as well as interests (based on weights). https://www.mixopinions.com/ https://www.mixopinions.com/ Some of the philosophy of why I was focusing on 'mixed viewpoint' conference software: https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1Q5KWhxhBMLWSvrYoEoWPWAO-YqgPwGRakvRNUnxtz1M/edit?usp=sharing https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1Q5KWhxhBMLWSvrYoEoWP...
AA-BA-94-2A-56 7y ago
The fact that a problem is a wicked problem does not justify inaction, in my opinion. I’ve had (stupid) friends argue that because income inequality is a wicked problem, we should do away with a social safety net for the poor. Obviously we can’t this issue 100 per cent, but the difference in trying to solve it is better quality of life, lessened crime, happier populace, more people ready for work, and lower mortality rate. It’s great to identify something as a Wicked problem, but that should never stop you from attempting to solving it.
- 83457 7y ago
  Everyone dies and we can't prevent that so we should do away with hospitals. Just bring up some issue that affects them and suddenly they will be disagreeing.
  - crankylinuxuser 7y ago
    Then fine. Go with the Buddhist standard, and the goal is to reduce suffering. I would say that's one of those simple rules with extraordinarily complex, but overall very good outcomes.
motohagiography 7y ago
I work in the domain of these wicked problems, and they usually reduce to Taleb's no "skin in the game." The necessary condition for one is that someone has power from some exogenous source, but without accountability. You can in fact identify wicked problems as an epi-phenomenon of the strategies of the players, who give away their intent in early rounds. The only solutions are an equilibrium of interests. It's a condition of bureaucracies, politics, and anything outside markets and hierarchies where you can resolve things with a clear price or authority. They are a peculiar game form that has no winners.
c3534l 7y ago
This seemed like an interesting concept, but the list of examples was underwhelming. It can be boiled down to "problems that can be mitigated, but not solved." Which is just kind of a dull thing to name. Given the description, it sounded like this was an article about paradoxical problems in optimization, or sort of real-life examples of the liars paradox. Instead, it's a class of problems that may be interesting in their own right, but the part they have in common isn't.
DoreenMichele 7y ago
I imagine in many cases, if you solved it, you wouldn't really get credit and history would just sort of shrug and forget it was ever an issue.
sunnyujjawal 7y ago
Totally irrelevant, but when you put the string "wicked problem" together twice like that, my brain refuses to scan it as anything other than a problem with a wick. https://kodyrabatowe.ogili.com/cat/opony/ https://kodyrabatowe.ogili.com/cat/opony/

Wicked problem

120 points by ivankirigin 7y ago

kangnkodos 7y ago

In Boston, people call this type of of problem a "wicked bad problem".

arawde 7y ago
not a "wicked hahd problem"?
- munk-a 7y ago
  Oh, and let's not forget the advanced form of this problem - the "supah wick'd hahd prahblem"... for general information "wicked" is usually a single syllable in Boston.

svnpenn 7y ago

As I have gotten older I try to recognize these when they present themselves, and proceed to avoid them at all costs.

beeschlenker 7y ago

So you're telling us the DowJones is down 4,000 this week because of a sickness with a death rate of 2.3%...are you sure it is not something else? Chancellor Merkel in latest update...additionally within first two minutes apparently VID_20200117_081906.mp3 in zip file 8Jan25JanMp3Conv. Global stock markets have lost $6 trillion in value in six days. It possibly because Soros, Putin, and others are moving money out of the US so that it cannot be taken in lawsuits resulting from their involvement in the story below. Unless of course you believe it is because of COVID19 aka Coronavirus, a sickness with a 2.3% death rate. See below: http://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2020/02/study-72000-covid-19-patients-finds-23-death-rate http://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2020/02/study-720... Attorney General Barr is not resigning; not before President Trump does. Barr is the same as Mueller,Pelosi,Schiff, & Nadler: feign opposition to cover the true motive of obstruction to keep Trump in power. Supreme Court Justice Alito & FBI Deputy Director Wray also on board. See latest updates "Impeachment" Is A Diversion And Delay - Part II: Blocking of the "impeachment" witnesses was collusion planned before the new year. Listen to an FBI agent's disclosure from January 1, 2O2O here. The President was to resign late summer securing election for DNC. See latest updates. Here is the zip file, which was also made available in the 3Jan2O2O update. The file within is VID_20200101_201948.mp3. Turn up the volume and put on headphones. BB10Mp3Footage31Dec1Jan.zip 122.4mb https://drive.google.com/file/d/1IXOOhQhHybwky8Z5pGdr9ZXhWpIUazmi/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/1IXOOhQhHybwky8Z5pGdr9ZXhWpI... The dialogue about the impeachment starts near the beginning. Having Biden in the White House is as good as Trump or anyone else in their organization. Obviously Schiff and Nadler pledged their allegiance to the organization by raping boys on the record, with their task being to drag out an impeachment designed to obstruct and delay any real efforts to remove the President, thus keeping Trump in power. The witness blocking was to cause an apparent uproar delaying things with legal actions until late Summer. Soon after, the President would resign, leaving any other candidate with not enough time or support to compete with an opportunistic Biden, who is as good as Trump or any other Illuminati friendly politician in the Presidency. 172 page PDF [last update: March|3|2O2O]: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1S7T_kDv48E40eHzus6CTXHxcm0W2qxVc/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/1S7T_kDv48E40eHzus6CTXHxcm0W... Previously reported: \Wag The Dog: first was feigned impeachment hearings meant to obstruct, now an attack on Iranians in Iraq. Here is what they are trying to distract from & cover up to retain power. $100+ billion in bribes to the highest offices in this country. 815+ deaths from child rapes to prove loyalty! See the latest PDF updates: FBI Director Wray, AG Barr, SoD Shanahan, & SoS Pompeo each raped boys and were paid billions in bribes for a Soros & Koch funded child rape org. So did Trump & his "impeachment" team Nadler,Schiff,Mueller.So did media moguls Redstone,Murdoch,Moonves. What are they trying to set up? Who can arrest them since they are all bribed and in on it ? Their strategy to stay in every office and obstruct until forced to leave no matter what. Feigning impeachment: see page 13O. Hoiohiuhrfe, jknbjkevew, vrmnowenbgewrg. port. \\if;Download the video/audio file, put on headphones and turn up the volume. You will hear these people committing these crimes. Audio was broadcast into my apartment by outdated surveillance equipment illegally embedded within my walls. This very same technology was being used to broadcast me to the internet for five years without my consent. I own this footage. Please use this to prosecute all found within. Note:: I am obliviously speaking throughout the video, and it can be quite loud at times relative to the desired content. The are dozens more links, including these, that can be found in this PDF that was last updated on 3 Mar 2O2O: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1S7T_kDv48E40eHzus6CTXHxcm0W2qxVc/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/1S7T_kDv48E40eHzus6CTXHxcm0W... All members of the "Illuminati"; "....an underground organization of homosexuals and child rapists..." (from pg 26: Barack Obama with Jack Dorsey). President Donald Trump: Demands a $4 billion dollar bribe here at 10:18am 4Jan2019: 3JanCh3_900-1100.avi https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Grdr8xF2psKNsuYlEnl9dIRV-77YG0Vr/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Grdr8xF2psKNsuYlEnl9dIRV-77... 3JanCh2_900-1100-avi https://drive.google.com/file/d/1LUmVygl_q0XVs8h2cWr8jZl-24fY0vBB/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/1LUmVygl_q0XVs8h2cWr8jZl-24f... 3JanCh4_1000-1100.mp3 https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ZpP1pJbJakBgg-y-MWNozTxp3wJojHge/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ZpP1pJbJakBgg-y-MWNozTxp3wJ... President Trump rapes and kills twelve boys, including five boys in a "who can rape five boys to death the fastest" game: 14JanCh3_600.mp3 https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ufPmglde9Mep0m6xYMJ9c4TWTjj258zB/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ufPmglde9Mep0m6xYMJ9c4TWTjj... 14JanCh2_600-700.mp3 https://drive.google.com/file/d/136qLJdEn8eCs9tI4QtIxl4opW_Lw_gCF/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/136qLJdEn8eCs9tI4QtIxl4opW_L... Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi: Accepting a $3 billion dollar bribe at 10:33 am on the 17 Jan 2019 to ensure Asian boys can get through the border at "Monterrey" undocumented to be raped: 17JanCh3_949-1100.avi https://drive.google.com/file/d/1eodHu4o5Cm3xEWhDqipSuTj-M1CZUvmE/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/1eodHu4o5Cm3xEWhDqipSuTj-M1C... 17JanCh4_1017-1100.avi https://drive.google.com/file/d/1y-nWEQbempkVZSz230j9wTyduZNjDmnk/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/1y-nWEQbempkVZSz230j9wTyduZN... Speaker Nancy Pelosi also "preps" boys with First Lady Melania Trump, defined as in she performs oral sex on the boys’ penis and anus, as a child rapist like Henry Porter would, while trying to remove fecal matter from the boy prior to handing them over to be raped and then subsequently murdered, for Supreme Court Justice Samuel Alito, who apparently decides he would rather just have ten billion dollars instead. US Attorney for Western New York James Kennedy rapes these boys instead: 12JanCh3_1533-1638.mp3 Yopujwmcwef, cwhbenclewgve. https://drive.google.com/file/d/1AgFkDsbPbI4b5Xd3Wbz2EVNNx25kW2Oz/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/1AgFkDsbPbI4b5Xd3Wbz2EVNNx25... Attorney General William Barr with FBI Deputy Director Christopher Wray raped and killed boys for billions in bribes in Buffalo, New York on the 17th Jan2019 at 7:50am: 18JanCh4_700mp3 https://drive.google.com/file/d/1UIdZkS5ZVksZdHYsnHk2t5losi0N0Bp7/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/1UIdZkS5ZVksZdHYsnHk2t5losi0... 18JanCh2_700.mp3 https://drive.google.com/file/d/1DFK8IAxm5pQVqZv9L518nfgP7_odB2Um/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/1DFK8IAxm5pQVqZv9L518nfgP7_o... 18JanCh3_725-.mp3 https://drive.google.com/file/d/1DG5ej59Ic8RT9UhbyMdwT0BDcKIifGGm/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/1DG5ej59Ic8RT9UhbyMdwT0BDcKI... Secretary of State Michael Pompeo and Secretary of Defense Patrick Shanahan each raped and killed boys on 5Jan'19 at 17:39 for billion$ in bribes:. dsavf awdva. r weqvvrvq. 5JanCh2_1721-1818.mp3 https://drive.google.com/file/d/1eSlD4otX4KZqWXboQM92Mu-6J02Mjwrg/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/1eSlD4otX4KZqWXboQM92Mu-6J02... Leaders of the "impeachment" effort Jerrold Nadler, Robert Mueller, and Adam Schiff all rape and kill boys between 11:20pm and 1:10am: 14JanCh4_2300-0000.mp3 Nadler starts at twenty minutes in- https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Kuvv2Zmbw5Jw7onbRI2hCZ0M8FU66GuU/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Kuvv2Zmbw5Jw7onbRI2hCZ0M8FU... 14JanCh2_2304-2359.mp3 https://drive.google.com/file/d/1nofp5xF-aXXcCSgQVwj30KlzE9WLr1x1/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/1nofp5xF-aXXcCSgQVwj30KlzE9W... Mueller at 12:25am, next is Schiff who starts at 12:55-ish: 15JanCh2_000-100.mp3 https://drive.google.com/file/d/1EsmHfguwBuo2PbavJ1WYyhiML62tgCkj/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/1EsmHfguwBuo2PbavJ1WYyhiML62... 15JanCh2_100-200.mp3 https://drive.google.com/file/d/1NZnWRnBryalNQu2yJmfJUdS2pA_rGSFH/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/1NZnWRnBryalNQu2yJmfJUdS2pA_... 15JanCh4_000-100.mp3 https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ZEDJR6jb6ARpcNnWJTokBUKb2J2OQnwZ/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ZEDJR6jb6ARpcNnWJTokBUKb2J2... 15JanCh4_100-200.mp3 https://drive.google.com/file/d/173aYWvWHH4VGht1h_2nM0IMdw746LeCL/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/173aYWvWHH4VGht1h_2nM0IMdw74... Complete Media Protection: Lester Holt, of NBC NightlyNews, apparently a member of the Illuminati since the 1980's, along with ABC Nightly News lead anchor David Muir, stop over to the Porter studio in Buffalo, New York on 14Jan2019 at 5:00 am. They both rape and kill about two dozen boys by 6:00 am. Muir starts around 5:15am, then Holt about 5:38 am. Multi-billionaire Rupert Murdoch, owner of News Corp and also Fox Corporation, takes his turn after Holt. Video links below: 14JanCh3_500-601.avi https://drive.google.com/file/d/1i7NKepeyG_FfdQRrM7KsnFOZOOX3o7UL/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/1i7NKepeyG_FfdQRrM7KsnFOZOOX... 14JanCh2_530-600.avi https://drive.google.com/file/d/1NZzgN5ilI7ToroU5cfqMaL4o2u1RwidV/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/1NZzgN5ilI7ToroU5cfqMaL4o2u1... Adding to the media protection and reason this is not picked up by the media, CBS and Viacom owner Sumner Redstone and Leslie Moonves rape and kill boys following the President. 14JanCh3_700.avi https://drive.google.com/file/d/10XDw6x3ldnnQiq7oIjpdYVENyXaB4aI0/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/10XDw6x3ldnnQiq7oIjpdYVENyXa... 14JanCh2_700-800.avi https://drive.google.com/file/d/1NS_e6AzEZ05wnfljkGMETGU5CWYKfRDp/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/1NS_e6AzEZ05wnfljkGMETGU5CWY... 172 page PDF [last updated: MAR|3|2O2O]: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1S7T_kDv48E40eHzus6CTXHxcm0W2qxVc/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/1S7T_kDv48E40eHzus6CTXHxcm0W... \\. Please repost in USA! Post gets censored in US Recently more relevant: From page 49, Senator Mitch McConnell: At 1632 Senator Mitch McConnell checks into the Porter camera system inquiring if he can be part of the "eviction" for $10 million dollars. He is informed by group members that there are enough people for the event already and his participation is not necessary. At 1634 McConnell states "I fucked 15 kids, how am I not getting paid by you?" He is dismissed by Donald Reeves with "I think that will be all Mr. McConnell." 13JanCh3_1600-1700.avi https://drive.google.com/file/d/1L7bqOpvaEWmLiJpMhJNQDrfsQAHtsX8-/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/1L7bqOpvaEWmLiJpMhJNQDrfsQAH...

acidburnNSA 7y ago

Alvin Weinberg published his "Science and Trans-Science" article on roughly this topic in 1972 [1]. He said: "Many of the issues that lie at the interface between science and politics involve questions that can be stated in scientific terms but that are in principle beyond the proficiency of science to answer." "The protagonists often ask for the impossible: scientific answers to questions that are trans-scientific" Pretty good stuff. [1] https://science.sciencemag.org/content/sci/177/4045/211.full.pdf https://science.sciencemag.org/content/sci/177/4045/211.full...

bjt2n3904 7y ago
Absolutely fantastic article. The protagonists, in my experience, don't understand this nuance very well, and are quick to label you as "anti-science".

hirundo 7y ago

Wickedness in a problem domain is an argument for a competitive, decentralized approach, in order to more rapidly search a larger solution space. Yet instead we seem to demand gordian or manichean solutions and strong centralized institutions to implement them. When the trains don't run on time, instead of seeking out a fray of Dagny Taggarts, we look for one Mussolini. And so wicked (hard) social problems beget disproportionately wicked (counter productive) answers.

kiliantics 7y ago
You are framing this as an either-or situation but, if you read the wiki page, there are 3 strategies to dealing with wicked problems and you missed the "collaborative" category. It's clear the authoritative "mussolini" solution is undesirable from a liberal perspective in which we prefer to have a shared say over how we organise things. However, it's also increasingly clear that the way we implement the competitive strategy -- you so aptly suggest the Ayn Rand protagonist as the better option -- is also flawed and incapable of solving these difficult problems. The nature of modern capitalism is to tend toward monopolistic/oligopolistic dynamics in the market, which ultimately leads to a concentration of power and a lack of shared control over such issues. Our economy has only ever made our impact on the environment worse and worse, and is driving us ever closer to catastrophic climate change. Not to mention other examples, such as healthcare, etc. Why not try something "collaborative", where instead of hoping for either a top-down governmental, or top-down corporate solution to problems, we truly decentralise power and give all people agency and freedom to live in this world? For instance, if we stopped letting the profit motive squeeze us for every possible thing, people would have more free time with lower living expenses and less demanding jobs, and could spend more time repairing/restoring possessions, rather than buying new, or gardening and cooking, rather than eating out, or cycling everywhere, rather than taking cars.
- hirundo 7y ago
  Because private property is the sin qua non of decentralized decision making. It is in fact a bundle of rights to make your own decisions about the disposition of things. Anything short of it is also less decentralized. Collaboration with less competition has fewer independent decision makers, and therefore searches the solution space more slowly. Creative destruction is ugly as hell. It incorporates all of evil. But it is also the engine of adaptation; the inverse of lithification. To the extent that we limit it, we limit the parallelism of adaptation. The fact that businesses can be so easily destroyed outweighs all of their manifest ugliness. Very few noncompetitive institutions have that feature. Fast search means rapid destruction and creation. There is a very real human cost to that, and many, maybe most people will never be convinced that it's worth it.

invalidOrTaken 7y ago

Has recently been popularized by the book Range, for which I'm grateful, because now I can talk about this stuff with my family. There is also something of a "wicked problem of wicked problems," which is that wicked problems are very hard to talk about---one of their survival traits is that they're unappealing to talk about, because by definition you can't "solve" them easily.

tantalor 7y ago

Is telling whether something is a wicked problem a wicked problem?

IshKebab 7y ago
Based on this Wikipedia article, yes and no. It has multiple conflicting and vague definitions for whatever the hell a "wicked problem" is. It's like they read the definition of REST and thought "I think we can go vaguer".
samatman 7y ago
Totally irrelevant, but when you put the string "wicked problem" together twice like that, my brain refuses to scan it as anything other than a problem with a wick. Something related to semantic satiation, I think.
mrkeen 7y ago
No or maybe. Just like a bloom filter

hosh 7y ago

Which cynefin (domain) would this belong to? Does it describe a class of problems that is not easily categorized within the Cynefin framework?

aalhour 7y ago
As per Dave Snowden, Wicked Problems lie in the Unordered side of Cynefin and mainly in the Complex domain (if they come from sociology).

ssivark 7y ago

Just this week I was reading “Notes on the Synthesis of Form” by Christopher Alexander (CA), which in someways kickstarted the “design thinking” craze. Later on, CA recanted many of his ideas about the systematization of design, and converged with Rittel regarding “wicked problems”. That said, the first half of the above book is still a fantastic read on why wicked problems tend to be hard when attempted in “self conscious mode”. One of the most thoughtful pieces I’ve read in a while... and it’s an intuitive, breezy and relatively short (for a book) read. Here’s Rittel’s seminal paper on problems with the “planning/design“ approach towards wicked problems: https://archive.epa.gov/reg3esd1/data/web/pdf/rittel%2bwebber%2bdilemmas%2bgeneral_theory_of_planning.pdf https://archive.epa.gov/reg3esd1/data/web/pdf/rittel%2bwebbe...

dr_dshiv 7y ago

I really get irritated by the use of the term. I've heard it too much in the wrong situations. Use with caution.

munk-a 7y ago
As a person who grew up in Boston, it is a really confusing term due to just sounding like a generally hard problem... which appears to be a pretty decent approximation of the term. The examples given in this article provide both clarity and additional confusion with a focus on being large uncertain (and thus generally hard to solve) problems.

mkchoi212 7y ago

How is the AIDS pandemic an example of a wicked problem? One of the definitions of a wicked problem is "Wicked problems have no stopping rule.". But the stopping rule for the AIDS pandemic seems to be creating a cure for AIDS / eliminating all cases of AIDS. Am I missing something really obvious here??

myhf 7y ago
If you are operating within the scope of a single country, eliminating all cases within that country would not be a stopping rule.
- mkchoi212 7y ago
  Oh, I meant eliminating all cases on earth :P
- TeMPOraL 7y ago
  But that itself doesn't make it a wicked problem. It means the solution needs to involve broadening the scope of your operations. In case of AIDS, it would be an international cooperation. A real-life example is the efforts to eradicate smallpox and polio; the first one succeeded, the second one was almost done but hit some serious problems with international cooperation - regardless, this demonstrates the problem, while hard, isn't wicked.

aaron695 7y ago

It's a great example because of a totally stupid name, a really important concept isn't being adequately explained or understood. Meaningless garbage like "Black Swan" is spouted all the time and sets people back, just because it's a cool name with a cool story Yet Wicked problems are our most important issues at Micro and Macro levels, you will have this problem, but people can't tackle them properly because we haven't abstracted the framework in a cool way. I also think the definition needs to be tightened. But I honestly think no one wants to work in a meta field called 'Wicked problems' I wonder if in other languages this is tackled better?

Forge36 7y ago
I swore these were called "hard problems" based on the rough definition: it's a problem whose solution only becomes obvious after a failed attempt at finding the solution. This fits nicely with the PDF text post also currently on the front page. The best solution for exporting the output text is simply to OCR what is visually seen as an image even though the text is present in the data (because white text on a white background wouldn't be wanted by most users) Therin: The solution also changes based on use case!
- aaron695 7y ago
  > it's a problem whose solution only becomes obvious after a failed attempt I think if the solution ever become obvious it's not a wicked problem. You can solve them sometimes, but they involve large amounts of waste and time. And you never know how to have done them better. That's my understanding. My starting solution to the PDF is to give the user both OCR and text and let them chose. I don't think it's Wicked, but I do think no one is solving it properly along clearly viable lines. I also think there is a clear solution to force companies to convert PDF's to text properly. So even at a higher level I don't think it's Wicked, just the culture is not correct.
invalidOrTaken 7y ago
>But I honestly think no one wants to work in a meta field called 'Wicked problems' I would love to work on this, but one of the things that makes wicked problems wicked is that their solutions are often incredibly unpopular. "Ill news is an ill guest, Gandalf Stormcrow."

jadbox 7y ago

I'm really happy this topic is surfancing on HN as I've made it my mission to build experiments to try to tackle social wicked problems. Dinnertable Chat is an online chatroulette-style conference matchmaking system based on mixing people based on same and different viewpoints. The same idea could be used to mix people on any category (by skill, field, etc): https://www.dinnertable.chat/about https://www.dinnertable.chat/about The Mix Opinions service matches people in physical spaces by dividing people up into groups, such that each group has maximized viewpoint diversity of each of the members. I could also adapt this to be applied to online conferencing and maximize on both diversity as well as interests (based on weights). https://www.mixopinions.com/ https://www.mixopinions.com/ Some of the philosophy of why I was focusing on 'mixed viewpoint' conference software: https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1Q5KWhxhBMLWSvrYoEoWPWAO-YqgPwGRakvRNUnxtz1M/edit?usp=sharing https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1Q5KWhxhBMLWSvrYoEoWP...

AA-BA-94-2A-56 7y ago

The fact that a problem is a wicked problem does not justify inaction, in my opinion. I’ve had (stupid) friends argue that because income inequality is a wicked problem, we should do away with a social safety net for the poor. Obviously we can’t this issue 100 per cent, but the difference in trying to solve it is better quality of life, lessened crime, happier populace, more people ready for work, and lower mortality rate. It’s great to identify something as a Wicked problem, but that should never stop you from attempting to solving it.

83457 7y ago
Everyone dies and we can't prevent that so we should do away with hospitals. Just bring up some issue that affects them and suddenly they will be disagreeing.
- crankylinuxuser 7y ago
  Then fine. Go with the Buddhist standard, and the goal is to reduce suffering. I would say that's one of those simple rules with extraordinarily complex, but overall very good outcomes.

motohagiography 7y ago

I work in the domain of these wicked problems, and they usually reduce to Taleb's no "skin in the game." The necessary condition for one is that someone has power from some exogenous source, but without accountability. You can in fact identify wicked problems as an epi-phenomenon of the strategies of the players, who give away their intent in early rounds. The only solutions are an equilibrium of interests. It's a condition of bureaucracies, politics, and anything outside markets and hierarchies where you can resolve things with a clear price or authority. They are a peculiar game form that has no winners.

c3534l 7y ago

This seemed like an interesting concept, but the list of examples was underwhelming. It can be boiled down to "problems that can be mitigated, but not solved." Which is just kind of a dull thing to name. Given the description, it sounded like this was an article about paradoxical problems in optimization, or sort of real-life examples of the liars paradox. Instead, it's a class of problems that may be interesting in their own right, but the part they have in common isn't.

DoreenMichele 7y ago

I imagine in many cases, if you solved it, you wouldn't really get credit and history would just sort of shrug and forget it was ever an issue.

sunnyujjawal 7y ago

Totally irrelevant, but when you put the string "wicked problem" together twice like that, my brain refuses to scan it as anything other than a problem with a wick. https://kodyrabatowe.ogili.com/cat/opony/ https://kodyrabatowe.ogili.com/cat/opony/