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Apple is merely treating the phone like a console. I can't play third party games on my PS4 or Switch. Nor can I run add third party apps to my car, TV or micro

Apple is merely treating the phone like a console. I can't play third party games on my PS4 or Switch. Nor can I run add third party apps to my car, TV or microwave. And given how many companies want to use the iPhone for nefarious means I like the fact that Apple is looking after me. Many other users feel the same.

toxik 7y ago
Which is similarly unacceptable, you own it, you decide what runs on it. Madness that it could ever come to this.
- DenisM 7y ago
  I own it, and I delegated it to Apple to decide what can run on it.
  - anoncake 7y ago
    No, you didn't. Else you could stop "delegating".
  - ASalazarMX 7y ago
    More like accepted their terms. You can't delegate what isn't yours to begin with.
  - pdkl95 7y ago
    You could still delegating the decision to Apple without restricting other people use of their general purpose computer[1] if Apple simply ran a curation service. Your choice to only use apps that have Apple's stamp of approval doesn't require forbidding other people from making a different choice. A curation service that forbids people from using competing services (or making their own decisions without any curator) is a monopolist trying to control a new market. edit: [1] https://boingboing.net/2012/08/23/civilwar.html https://boingboing.net/2012/08/23/civilwar.html
    - jsjddbbwj 7y ago
      Everybody who's chosen to use an iPhone has done so freely and without being coerced. Alternatives exist, including one that's wildly more popular than the iPhone itself.
      - pdkl95 7y ago
        Yes, we did. So what? Someone that buys an iPhone can use their property as they desire. Apple is selling a general purpose computer (even if they wish they were selling an appliance with a specific limited set of features). They can (and should) make recommendations about how to use their product safely, but they don't have any right to forbid people from using what is now the customer's property for an "unapproved" purpode. A manufacturer looses control of their product after the first sale[1]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-sale_doctrine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-sale_doctrine
        scarface74 7y ago
        How is everything with a processor not a general purpose computer? By definition Apple isn’t selling a device that you can do with as you please like a general purpose computer. If you don’t like Apple’s policies you are free to buy an Android device. The free market is great isn’t it? It’s surprising what intelligent people can do without giving the government more power.
        sjwright 7y ago
        I would go further and reject the phrase “general purpose computer” as overly vague to the point of being meaningless. Is a bicycle a general purpose vehicle? Who decides what qualifies as a general purpose?
        pdkl95 7y ago
        > Who decides what qualifies as a general purpose Alan Turing and Alanzo Church. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church%E2%80%93Turing_thesis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church%E2%80%93Turing_thesis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turing_completeness https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turing_completeness However, my use of the term is an explicit (my previous [2]) reference to these important talks by Cory Doctorow about the War on General Purpose Computing, which I strongly recommend watching/reading: https://boingboing.net/2012/01/10/lockdown.html https://boingboing.net/2012/01/10/lockdown.html https://boingboing.net/2012/08/23/civilwar.html https://boingboing.net/2012/08/23/civilwar.html
  - archontes 7y ago
    If you believe this, then surely you believe that what is delegated to Apple can be relegated back to you, which is what the company in question was attempting.
- api 7y ago
  Then don't buy an iOS device. This is no different from game consoles.
  - anonymousab 7y ago
    Or a tractor that refuses to run with custom modifications/repairs.
    - paulryanrogers 7y ago
      Until it's impossible because all tractor makers sell with the same terms. And they've enough money to buy or sue any liberal alternatives out of existence.
    - tal8d 7y ago
      For those who haven't been paying attention to the comedic effects of intellectual property taken to the extreme (or logical conclusion, I'd argue): just punch "tractor dmca" into your favorite search engine. We often take for granted that people in this sphere are aware of this sort of insanity, but unfortunately that really isn't even close to being true.
- fit2rule 7y ago
  It is madness. What's the solution? We can always go back to older computing platforms that don't have this problem with a third party exercising arbitrary its iron grip over our possessions.
dathinab 7y ago
Sure, but in the end a phone by now is not like a console. A console is a pure luxus good with many alternatives, one which is pretty open (the computer). A phone is a by now pretty much necessary(1) equipment for the daily live majorly affecting it. With just two "viable" alternatives Android and iOs and a ecosystem+patent mess which make it close to impossible to create a 3 competitor (besides niche markets). So it's ok if a game console is looked up, it's not if a phone is looked up. (EDIT: REMOVED misleading sentence) --------------------------------- (1): Yes you can live with old style phones and I know even one person which does so. But it's a major impact onto your live making it hard in many often subtitle ways so not really viable for the general population. E.g. for Banks in the EU to buy anything over Credit Card which is not little risk (mid or higher amount, untrusted shop in Asia, etc.) it will enforce second factor authentication of the transaction. The gotcha is that for some (?many?most?) banks this can only be done through a phone app only available on iOs and _Unrooted_ Android, but not Windows or rooted Android or over a web interface or OS X or Desktop Linux. So basically you can't any longer properly use a credit card without a locked up smartphone with some (?many?most?) European banks...
- tal8d 7y ago
  I've been living without a mobile phone for about 5 years. The only time it has ever registered as slightly inconvenient for me is while travelling - specifically the airport pickup coordination. I simply don't use services that rely on thoroughly busted mobile phone 2FA - and I'm honestly dumbfounded that anyone with any understanding of 2FA and the insecurity of telecom networks would, given the fact that a lot of services use it for password reset.
  - Hydraulix989 7y ago
    So you use taxis and landlines instead?
    - tal8d 7y ago
      Nope, just advanced planning and VoIP. You'd be amazed how much you save in both service fees and distraction. Friends and family quickly adapt as well, knowing to call in the evening - which leads to better conversations in my experience (no more "...so whatcha doin?", they've collected their thoughts and I'm not distracted). Obviously it doesn't work for everyone... but unless you are a doctor or a volunteer firefighter, I encourage people to give it a try for a month or two - you won't want to go back to lugging that privacy invading media consumption device around after that.
thrwaway69 7y ago
Wait till you get a kindle. Amazon even locks your screensaver. You can't change it.
- Hydraulix989 7y ago
  I use the Boox Nova which runs Android and is completely customizable. Vote with your dollars.
  - thrwaway69 7y ago
    Where did you get it and for how much?
- FireBeyond 7y ago
  And look at the screaming fit when Amazon reached into devices and deleted content. But somehow this is different, because it’s Apple?
Wowfunhappy 7y ago
I don't like it when consoles do it either, but a console is fundamentally a single purpose device. A cell phone is increasingly people's primary computer for everything. And many times their only computer!
- sjwright 7y ago
  “I don’t like it when car companies don’t allow subcompact crossovers to do heavy towing. Such cars are increasingly people’s primary vehicle for everything. And many times their only vehicle!” Seriously, most people don’t need their phone to qualify as a computer under your definition. You’re actually being somewhat presumptuous when you infer that people must own at least one “proper” computer.
  - Wowfunhappy 7y ago
    If China forces Apple to pull an app for protesters from a game console, it really doesn't matter. If China forces Apple to pull an app for protesters from those protester's primary computer, it's a huge issue.
    - sjwright 7y ago
      I simply don’t agree. It’s not Apple’s responsibility to make products that compensate for bad national governments. And I reject the claim that the scale of the issue is different between a phone and a games console. Who are you to say that a games console can’t be used for secure communications by protesters? That is equivalent to saying that we should be more concerned about crackdowns against journalists than against political satirists.
  - perl4ever 7y ago
    "I don’t like it when car companies don’t allow subcompact crossovers to do heavy towing" Unintentional irony? You are apparently not aware that this is a perennial topic among car enthusiasts, because people noticed that small vehicles usually have much smaller tow ratings (if any) in the US than Europe, even though they seem to be mechanically the same. In the US, people use massive trucks to tow, and from what I've read, in Europe, they don't seem to need them.
m463 7y ago
The thing is, ios apps have been doing nefarious things since forever. Apple takes away the ability to: - see what the apps on your phone are doing - let you prevent them from doing it. The big one is networking. Apps can use the network without restriction. apps can link in SDKs that can contact any and all online advertisers. Apple does not allow firewall apps.

toxik 7y ago

Which is similarly unacceptable, you own it, you decide what runs on it. Madness that it could ever come to this.

DenisM 7y ago
I own it, and I delegated it to Apple to decide what can run on it.
- anoncake 7y ago
  No, you didn't. Else you could stop "delegating".
- ASalazarMX 7y ago
  More like accepted their terms. You can't delegate what isn't yours to begin with.
- pdkl95 7y ago
  You could still delegating the decision to Apple without restricting other people use of their general purpose computer[1] if Apple simply ran a curation service. Your choice to only use apps that have Apple's stamp of approval doesn't require forbidding other people from making a different choice. A curation service that forbids people from using competing services (or making their own decisions without any curator) is a monopolist trying to control a new market. edit: [1] https://boingboing.net/2012/08/23/civilwar.html https://boingboing.net/2012/08/23/civilwar.html
  - jsjddbbwj 7y ago
    Everybody who's chosen to use an iPhone has done so freely and without being coerced. Alternatives exist, including one that's wildly more popular than the iPhone itself.
    - pdkl95 7y ago
      Yes, we did. So what? Someone that buys an iPhone can use their property as they desire. Apple is selling a general purpose computer (even if they wish they were selling an appliance with a specific limited set of features). They can (and should) make recommendations about how to use their product safely, but they don't have any right to forbid people from using what is now the customer's property for an "unapproved" purpode. A manufacturer looses control of their product after the first sale[1]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-sale_doctrine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-sale_doctrine
      - scarface74 7y ago
        How is everything with a processor not a general purpose computer? By definition Apple isn’t selling a device that you can do with as you please like a general purpose computer. If you don’t like Apple’s policies you are free to buy an Android device. The free market is great isn’t it? It’s surprising what intelligent people can do without giving the government more power.
        sjwright 7y ago
        I would go further and reject the phrase “general purpose computer” as overly vague to the point of being meaningless. Is a bicycle a general purpose vehicle? Who decides what qualifies as a general purpose?
        pdkl95 7y ago
        > Who decides what qualifies as a general purpose Alan Turing and Alanzo Church. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church%E2%80%93Turing_thesis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church%E2%80%93Turing_thesis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turing_completeness https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turing_completeness However, my use of the term is an explicit (my previous [2]) reference to these important talks by Cory Doctorow about the War on General Purpose Computing, which I strongly recommend watching/reading: https://boingboing.net/2012/01/10/lockdown.html https://boingboing.net/2012/01/10/lockdown.html https://boingboing.net/2012/08/23/civilwar.html https://boingboing.net/2012/08/23/civilwar.html
- archontes 7y ago
  If you believe this, then surely you believe that what is delegated to Apple can be relegated back to you, which is what the company in question was attempting.
api 7y ago
Then don't buy an iOS device. This is no different from game consoles.
- anonymousab 7y ago
  Or a tractor that refuses to run with custom modifications/repairs.
  - paulryanrogers 7y ago
    Until it's impossible because all tractor makers sell with the same terms. And they've enough money to buy or sue any liberal alternatives out of existence.
  - tal8d 7y ago
    For those who haven't been paying attention to the comedic effects of intellectual property taken to the extreme (or logical conclusion, I'd argue): just punch "tractor dmca" into your favorite search engine. We often take for granted that people in this sphere are aware of this sort of insanity, but unfortunately that really isn't even close to being true.
fit2rule 7y ago
It is madness. What's the solution? We can always go back to older computing platforms that don't have this problem with a third party exercising arbitrary its iron grip over our possessions.

dathinab 7y ago

Sure, but in the end a phone by now is not like a console. A console is a pure luxus good with many alternatives, one which is pretty open (the computer). A phone is a by now pretty much necessary(1) equipment for the daily live majorly affecting it. With just two "viable" alternatives Android and iOs and a ecosystem+patent mess which make it close to impossible to create a 3 competitor (besides niche markets). So it's ok if a game console is looked up, it's not if a phone is looked up. (EDIT: REMOVED misleading sentence) --------------------------------- (1): Yes you can live with old style phones and I know even one person which does so. But it's a major impact onto your live making it hard in many often subtitle ways so not really viable for the general population. E.g. for Banks in the EU to buy anything over Credit Card which is not little risk (mid or higher amount, untrusted shop in Asia, etc.) it will enforce second factor authentication of the transaction. The gotcha is that for some (?many?most?) banks this can only be done through a phone app only available on iOs and _Unrooted_ Android, but not Windows or rooted Android or over a web interface or OS X or Desktop Linux. So basically you can't any longer properly use a credit card without a locked up smartphone with some (?many?most?) European banks...

tal8d 7y ago
I've been living without a mobile phone for about 5 years. The only time it has ever registered as slightly inconvenient for me is while travelling - specifically the airport pickup coordination. I simply don't use services that rely on thoroughly busted mobile phone 2FA - and I'm honestly dumbfounded that anyone with any understanding of 2FA and the insecurity of telecom networks would, given the fact that a lot of services use it for password reset.
- Hydraulix989 7y ago
  So you use taxis and landlines instead?
  - tal8d 7y ago
    Nope, just advanced planning and VoIP. You'd be amazed how much you save in both service fees and distraction. Friends and family quickly adapt as well, knowing to call in the evening - which leads to better conversations in my experience (no more "...so whatcha doin?", they've collected their thoughts and I'm not distracted). Obviously it doesn't work for everyone... but unless you are a doctor or a volunteer firefighter, I encourage people to give it a try for a month or two - you won't want to go back to lugging that privacy invading media consumption device around after that.

thrwaway69 7y ago

Wait till you get a kindle. Amazon even locks your screensaver. You can't change it.

Hydraulix989 7y ago
I use the Boox Nova which runs Android and is completely customizable. Vote with your dollars.
- thrwaway69 7y ago
  Where did you get it and for how much?
FireBeyond 7y ago
And look at the screaming fit when Amazon reached into devices and deleted content. But somehow this is different, because it’s Apple?

Wowfunhappy 7y ago

I don't like it when consoles do it either, but a console is fundamentally a single purpose device. A cell phone is increasingly people's primary computer for everything. And many times their only computer!

sjwright 7y ago
“I don’t like it when car companies don’t allow subcompact crossovers to do heavy towing. Such cars are increasingly people’s primary vehicle for everything. And many times their only vehicle!” Seriously, most people don’t need their phone to qualify as a computer under your definition. You’re actually being somewhat presumptuous when you infer that people must own at least one “proper” computer.
- Wowfunhappy 7y ago
  If China forces Apple to pull an app for protesters from a game console, it really doesn't matter. If China forces Apple to pull an app for protesters from those protester's primary computer, it's a huge issue.
  - sjwright 7y ago
    I simply don’t agree. It’s not Apple’s responsibility to make products that compensate for bad national governments. And I reject the claim that the scale of the issue is different between a phone and a games console. Who are you to say that a games console can’t be used for secure communications by protesters? That is equivalent to saying that we should be more concerned about crackdowns against journalists than against political satirists.
- perl4ever 7y ago
  "I don’t like it when car companies don’t allow subcompact crossovers to do heavy towing" Unintentional irony? You are apparently not aware that this is a perennial topic among car enthusiasts, because people noticed that small vehicles usually have much smaller tow ratings (if any) in the US than Europe, even though they seem to be mechanically the same. In the US, people use massive trucks to tow, and from what I've read, in Europe, they don't seem to need them.

m463 7y ago

The thing is, ios apps have been doing nefarious things since forever. Apple takes away the ability to: - see what the apps on your phone are doing - let you prevent them from doing it. The big one is networking. Apps can use the network without restriction. apps can link in SDKs that can contact any and all online advertisers. Apple does not allow firewall apps.