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New iPhones might be forced to have a removable battery
- acd 7y agoSounds like a good idea for the environment
- ryanlol 7y agoDo you actually think this will have a real impact “for the environment”?
- klingonopera 7y agoYes. If you have a used phone with a dead and non-replaceable battery, you're gonna invest at least half of the amount of money to make it operational again compared to buying the cheapest new smartphone available (assuming your average Joe goes to a shop to service his phone). If all batteries can be replaced by the consumer, all that's left is the cost of a new battery itself, which makes that used phone very much an attractive option again, since it now would cost only a fraction of a new phone to make operational again.
- ryanlol 7y agoHow many people will actually do this with their five year old phones? Probably not many. The ones that are worth anything to anyone already get shipped off to third world countries and refurbished en masse. I have a really hard time imagining any significant environmental impact from this.
- alkonaut 7y agoA new battery is $40-80, say. If the phone would have a hatch your cost of the replacment operation itself would be $0, and for a current iphone the cost of the replacement is maybe $20. I don't see how the $20 makes the difference between very attractive to keep and not.
- klingonopera 7y agoReplacing the battery for a phone here in Germany would set you back about 50-100€. A somewhat usable smartphone costs 85-115€. Hm... I'd rather get a new phone. If I could replace it myself, I'm quite sure I'd find a no-name replacement part for a maximum of 20€ on eBay. Hm, I'm sticking with the old phone for now.
- alkonaut 7y agoA replacement at an apple store in Germany is €55 [1]. That will get you an original battery that is probably at least €35. So they are probably charging around €20 for the work alone. A guy in the street will sell you a third party battery and insert it for you for maybe €30 or €35 total. Depending on how much you could buy the third party battery for yourself, you are paying maybe €10 or €15 for the work there. So what we are discussing is really this: is it worth changing the design maybe making phones bulkier, less waterproof etc, in order to save a €10-15 (third party) to €20 (original) expense that happens once? [1] https://support.apple.com/de-de/iphone/repair/service/battery-power https://support.apple.com/de-de/iphone/repair/service/batter... (All prices here are for older models as we were talking about cheap phones in the €100-€150 range, not X/11s)
- moooo99 7y ago> A replacement at an apple store in Germany is €55 Yes, for the older models (pre iPhone X). Every upcoming iPhone is likely to fall into the 75€ category. The main drawback however is the availability of the Apple stores. In Germany in total, there are only 15 Apple stores. For me, the closest store is 300km away. So, driving is not really an option just to get my battery replaced, if I'd send it in for repair, this can take up to 5 working days, so at worst, thats 7 working days without my phone (assuming shipping takes one day).
- alkonaut 7y agoI usually do it via my carrier which has stores in every shopping mall. They'll lend me a phone while they send mine away for repair. It's a hassle but it's better than nothing. For my old phones (which are still in the pre-X category) I just get a repair at an unofficial store at €30 or €35.
- scarface74 7y agoIf it’s Android, what are the chances I can also run the latest OS on an old phone.
- donarb 7y agoPeople replacing their own batteries will most likely throw them in the garbage. Not really good for the environment.
- nolok 7y agoBy that weird logic, better their battery than their entire phone battery included. In France any store selling electronic products is mandated by law to accept your used batteries and electronics, and I'm sure most of europe has a similar thing. So this is neither better or worse in any way on that front.
- pkaye 7y ago> In France any store selling electronic products is mandated by law to accept your used batteries and electronics, and I'm sure most of europe has a similar thing. So what do they do with the batteries and electronics afterwards? Do they ship them to a developing country to dismantle and dispose of properly?
- baylisscg 7y agoYeah, its the EU Waste Electrical and Electronic Equipment Directive. For any item covered by it made after 2005 it's the producer or distributor's responsibility to recycle it.
- maerF0x0 7y agoFive eyes wont like it to be so easy to disable your tracking device. Removing the battery or other kinds of signal blocking is the only way to know it's off / not transmitting
- gruez 7y agoor just... don't bring your phone with you?
- maerF0x0 7y agoPossible for short periods, but unreasonable for all of life. Also privacy is a right and I shouldnt have to discontinue the legal use of something in order to avoid tracking. Some people's job requires them to have a phone on them, should they have to choose between a job and privacy?
- gruez 7y ago>Some people's job requires them to have a phone on them, should they have to choose between a job and privacy? How would being able to take out the battery help? I don't think your boss would be pleased if you were on-call and your work phone's batteries were taken out.
- ryanlol 7y agoThe battery is removable, you just need a screwdriver. This seems like a bad thing, any changes to make battery replacements significantly easier will almost certainly come at a significant cost. And in any case, it’s already really easy to replace the battery if you can get your hands on one.
- dfox 7y agoI think you kind of hint at interesting point: given how last few generation of iPhones are constructed (and that most current android phones take similar approach) it would be actually not that hard to make battery truly user replacable without any form factor compromises. Just replace the two screw-like pins with something that can be removed with some sane tool (think SIM ejector) and not glue the battery in place inside...
- ryanlol 7y agoOr just ship the screwdriver with the phones? Unfortunately users performing their own battery swaps will tend to lead to compromised waterproofing, which doesn’t seem great.
- mtmail 7y agoThis guide suggests 44 steps. https://www.ifixit.com/Guide/iPhone+11+Battery+Replacement/127450 https://www.ifixit.com/Guide/iPhone+11+Battery+Replacement/1... I think one could use a/the screwdriver as opener or instead of the tweezers lately but replacing the battery is not something everybody can do. Compared to how easy it was 10 years ago to swap a battery.
- istorical 7y agoHope so, planned obsolescence is morally wrong for a company making world record profits.
- skinnymuch 7y agoIs it not morally wrong for non-Apple or non-Apple/Google companies?
- 4cao 7y agoThe regulation is supposed to apply to all manufacturers, and in fact the article is talking about Samsung as well. A more accurate title for this story would be: "All new _phones_ might be forced to have a removable battery"
- belltaco 7y agoTricky question. As an extreme example, Is it as morally wrong for a homeless mother to steal baby food from a convenience to feed her starving baby vs a rich kid stealing from a store to impress his friends?
- skinnymuch 7y agoThat’s a wide difference. The other phone companies aren’t equivalent to a homeless mother wanting to feed her baby. Or any one who is homeless. If you had done something of a middle class vs rich person. Or a homeless vs in debt and barely living paycheck to paycheck person then those would make more sense. And in those cases. The morals are close to the same for both scenarios.
- threeseed 7y agoYou can replace the battery on your iPhone. It's just not user serviceable. And Apple has for the last few years been focusing on improving the performance and stability of older phones in order to sell services. So your planned obsolescence remark doesn't really apply any more.
- diego 7y agoIf having a user-removable battery makes my phone not water resistant, then I don't want that. I have never had an issue with an iPhone battery. As things are, the battery is replaceable by any skilled technician so the cost of having it done is low. Perhaps they could enforce a standard battery form factor, if that.
- klingonopera 7y agoThe Samsung Galaxy S5 has a replaceable battery and is water resistant, it's definitely doable.
- eugeniub 7y agoThe Samsung S5 is rated IP67, resistant to 1 meter of water for 30 minutes. The iPhone 11 Pro is rated IP68, resistant to 4 meters of water for 30 minutes.
- klingonopera 7y agoThey're also four to five years apart, and IP67 was more or less top-of-the-line during the time when most smartphones still had replaceable batteries. Also, this entire argument feels like it's getting way too much significance. It's definitely doable, even with IP68, there are tons of replaceable-battery-operated waterproof devices out there, this shouldn't be a reason.
- alkonaut 7y ago> even with IP68, there are tons of replaceable-battery-operated waterproof devices out there. Buyers would also rather keep the solid slab with no hatch form factor, than see the phone be 2mm thicker I assume. A lot of other devices don't have a size budget that is as extreme as a modern smartphone. Put the other way: a slightly bigger phone (because of some separating compartment, gaskets, battery in a plastic cartridge and so on) could instead have been a solid slab with a slightly larger battery, so several hours extra battery time or higher performance at the same battery time.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- alkonaut 7y agoThey are replacable. It’s cheap to replace them. They just don’t have a user accessible hatch. I wouldn’t want to have a battery hatch and perhaps worse water sealing, just so I could change a battery myself instead of paying $20 for it once in the lifetime of a phone that is maybe $500 to $1500 to buy! Sure if it came at no cost in terms of size, weight, price, waterproofing etc then sure. But otherwise I’d rather just pay the cheap replacement once after 2-3 years. If people throw away their phones because the battery has gone bad, I think it’s because they think it’ll be expensive or impossible to change it.
- ThePhysicist 7y agoIt’s more like 79 $ for the new generation of iPhones, at least if you want to have it changed by Apple with an official battery (https://support.apple.com/iphone/repair/service/battery-power https://support.apple.com/iphone/repair/service/battery-powe...). I did it for my SE and think it’s worth it, I still find it overpriced though.
- enneff 7y agoWhy get an official battery replacement for a phone that’s out of warranty?
- hinkley 7y agoDoes the replacement work nave a warranty?
- ThePhysicist 7y agoI don’t think so, I think the battery might have a one year warranty but it’s considered a “wear part” like a tire so I don’t think you can get a free replacement if it wears out in an expected way.
- ThePhysicist 7y agoBecause the phone itself is still fine and works really well, just the battery doesn’t hold a full charge and doesn’t deliver the full output current anymore. Now I can use the phone for another 1-2 years which is great. I love the form factor as well and right now Apple doesn’t have anything comparable, but I hope they’ll make a small phone again. Also, the unofficial replacement is not that much cheaper, you get a no-name Chinese battery (which is often worse than the original and more dangerous) and it might break things like FaceID/TouchID because the security chip will be reset and the non-official repair shops don’t have any means to reprogram it (as far as I know).
- sytelus 7y agoWhile I fully support right to repair, hack and alter - I really think this is design decision that should be owned by designers and not politicians. There are N number of devices without removable batteries and there are M reasons why designer might not want them. Politicians should just ensure that manufacturers must respect the right of customer to open the device and alter it in anyway they see fit.
- supercanuck 7y agodesign decisions come from marketing, not designers. Replaceable batteries are as much a business/product strategy decision as it is a design decision.
- agumonkey 7y agoLets give apple something to flex their muscles on. I'm sure they can spin this positively too.
- filleokus 7y agoAre there "even" any examples of Android phones with user replaceable batteries that are comparable to current iPhones. I.e, with same/similar IP-ratings, similar battery capacity, similar ish power consumption, similar weight/thickness, similar screen size etc. I think a smarter legislative move would be to enforce cost and accessibility measures for replacements, then manufactures could decide on the trade-off between design and cost. E.g if EU said that all (new) phones could have their battery replaced for 30€/3% of purchase price/something else, within $arbitrary days, Apple could do that instead of making their phones (in my view) worse, while lower-end Android vendors without service infrastructure could make their phones thicker or less waterproof with an old school battery.
- GuB-42 7y agoThere are no high end phones with removable batteries. Today, the closest would the new Samsung Galaxy XCover Pro, but they it is in a completely different market. The iPhone is a high end consumer product while the XCover Pro is a mid range rugged smartphone. For a more relevant comparison, we have to go back to the Galaxy S5 (2014). It was a flagship and IMHO, a very good one. It had a removable battery, IP67 rating, and was on par with iPhones specs-wise. The main downside was its look, and it is probably the reason why Samsung switched to an all glass design.
- adrianmonk 7y agoI agree. Legislate the requirements, not the implementation choice. Otherwise, you unnecessarily constrain people from coming up with the best solution. Product engineers then basically have to follow a design concept created by people who aren't trained in that. Though I do understand how legislators might fear that if they only specify requirements, industry might act like the proverbial genie who grants wishes exactly as asked or even intentionally in the worst possible way.
- paulus_magnus2 7y agoI can't shake off the thought half of the comments defending Apple are written by people working at/for Apple. Or earning 300k+ 1 - 2 hours are required https://www.ifixit.com/Guide/iPhone+11+Battery+Replacement/127450 https://www.ifixit.com/Guide/iPhone+11+Battery+Replacement/1... That's 2 hours of a technician + 2 houurs + driving there/back. 115,00€ https://www.ifixers.be/en/repair/smartphone/apple/iphone-xr https://www.ifixers.be/en/repair/smartphone/apple/iphone-xr 105,00€ https://www.ifixers.be/en/repair/smartphone/apple/iphone-8-0 https://www.ifixers.be/en/repair/smartphone/apple/iphone-8-0 For newer models battery replacement is not even offered. Samsung is not any better at €95 https://www.ifixers.be/en/repair/smartphone/samsung/galaxy-note-9-sm-n960 https://www.ifixers.be/en/repair/smartphone/samsung/galaxy-n... Cheaper at the original store https://www.samsung.com/be/reparatie/mobile/ https://www.samsung.com/be/reparatie/mobile/ With Note 4 battery replacement took 10s and involved popping the plastick back off the phone. Tangentially, changing a H7 lightbulb in my Ford involves taking out the front harness and the whole reflector - meaning light realignmen at the shop is needed. Replacing the car battery is even worse, cant imagine doing it myself. At some point some manager must have invented a user story "as a user I want to spend €500 in car service to change the battery instead of the usual €0".
- ThePhysicist 7y agoWow, that is twice as expensive as Apples pricing for a battery change: https://support.apple.com/iphone/repair/service/battery-power https://support.apple.com/iphone/repair/service/battery-powe... Why would anyone do that instead of getting an official replacement?
- alkonaut 7y agoAn original battery change (at an apple store) in expensive Sweden is €77 and that's for the new/more expensive models. Previous models are even cheaper than that. Buying an original apple iphone 11 battery is almost that much for the battery alone (if you can find one). Quick googling shows they are around €70 though it's hard to say how "original" a battery really is online. So you really aren't paying much for the replacement work itself and that's what matters. One needs to factor the battery cost out of the cost of battery+replacement to discuss the benefit of user replacement. You can buy third party batteries for as low as €30 for some models and you then have to replace it or find someone to do it. No matter how you do, you'll likely never be paying more than say €30 for the replacement (work). and this replacement service is something that is needed either zero times or once for a product that costs around €1000 new. (Edit: original replacement by apple is €55 or €75 in Belgium too - same prices everywhere effectively) https://support.apple.com/nl-be/iphone/repair/service/battery-power https://support.apple.com/nl-be/iphone/repair/service/batter...)
- adrr 7y agoInstead of forcing companies to make removable batteries. Slap on a 20% tax to companies that have batteries that don't retain 80% charge after 4 years. If the device is to new to have real world testing, company can forgo the tax by allowing free battery changes for 4 years.
- cududa 7y ago“Tax companies unless they break the laws of physics”
- adrr 7y agoBatteries retaining 80% capacity after 4 years of use is defying the law of physics? I am pretty sure battery longevity isn't constrained by physics. Lithium batteries in the Tesla last more cycles than the ones in your phone. Why because, Tesla warranties the battery for 8 years. Cell phone manufacturers just need the battery to last 1 year so they don't care. And for people who downvote me, the reason we removed mercury/cadmium from batteries was during 90s government threatened to heavily tax batteries. Car industry in EU is also heavily influenced by penalties around gas mileage.
- kitsunesoba 7y agoThe difference is that Teslas are much much larger than a phone which gives ample room for advanced cooling systems which prevent the heat buildup that kills lithium ion batteries. The only way to get a similar number of cycles with a phone battery would be to put a large heat sink and possibly a fan on the phone’s SoC and battery or to permanently throttle the SoC so that it never gets hot, even when all cores are maxed out. Essentially, the choice would be a brick-like phone or a phone that runs like it‘s a decade old. Neither seems like the sort of compromise consumers outside of a small niche would buy. Of course in the future we may see battery chemistries that aren’t so sensitive to heat, but no such battery is on the market currently.
- perl4ever 7y agoWell, I imagine you can always improve that statistic by simply making the battery, say, twice as large and not using most of the capacity. I recall reading that Toyota did that to make the Prius reliable and long-lived. It would be a valid objection to ask if that is really advancing environmental goals, I suppose.
- xenadu02 7y agoA user-removable battery imposes a significant cost. As devices get smaller the cost is correspondingly higher. Adding a compartment means extra weight to strengthen the device. Plus a cover strong enough to keep out water. Then the battery itself needs to be encased to protect it, lest putting it in your pocket causes a key puncture that sets your pants on fire. Those costs are mostly fixed and would be a larger proportion of the overall thickness and weight in a modern phone. It also means you can't use a split battery, L-shapes battery, or exploit any other spatial dimensions to pack in more battery... at least not to the same degree. Is having half the battery life, or a phone 60% thicker worth it?
- gojomo 7y agoI wish people who want to design iPhones would apply for jobs with Apple, supplying a design portfolio showing relevant competence, like normal sane & polite people – instead of attempting to use state power to impose their product preferences on others.
- scarface74 7y agoSo if the EU is so worried about planned obsolescence, are they going to force Android OEMs to match Apple’s support when it comes to iOS upgrades on older phones and security patches on even older phones? The iPhone 6S released in 2015 is still running the latest version of iOS. I can replace the battery and still get a fully supported phone.
- olliej 7y agoRight? The fact that Apple releasing new phones every year is considered “planned obsolescence”, when they’re still providing support for them 5 years down the road, for free, when android phones are shipped without even the current OS let alone any updates is absurd. Are they also going to do something about planned obsolescence in cars? New models of those are released every year, they stop getting free service after a year...
- scarface74 7y agoActually it’s longer, not only does the latest iOS run on the 2015 iPhone 6S, Apple released an update to fix some bugs July of last year to devices that go back to the 2011 iPhone 4s. Maybe this is yet another example of why it’s crazy to want government intervention of tech when politicians don’t understand the issues.
- escardin 7y agoMy 6 may not have the current OS, but it's still getting security updates, which is all I care about on a phone that is otherwise good enough still.
- mensetmanusman 7y agoEasily removable battery equals no water proofing. Would be an interesting study to see which is a more environmentally friendly solution.
- epanchin 7y agoApple don’t sell spare parts to consumers, so what use is a removable battery going to be vs the current system?
- newscracker 7y agoI don’t really want a user removable battery and make it less water proof. The devices are pretty good and last several years if the batteries are well taken care of. I’m also fine with Apple replacing the batteries with its own certified batteries where I don’t have to worry (much) about the quality or longevity or even stability of the power source. The bigger issue with all lithium batteries on devices is that even third party replacements are available only for a limited number of years. I’d rather have Apple and similar companies be forced to provide paid battery replacements for longer than their self-defined device obsolescence cycles (which are quite short for phones, tablets, and even for laptops). That’s how you can make sure that devices remain (kinda) usable for the long term, even if they’re handed down to someone else. If Apple is indeed forced to do something, I’d rather have a better way to load apps outside of the App Store and increase competition for Apple.
- badrabbit 7y agoPlease keep in mind E911 "pinging" is being abused and even being sold as a service. There have been malware that turn off the screen when you hit power and simulate a shutdown/startup routine. So long as the battery is plugged in a mobile phone, regardless of the OS, is a device that can be used to listen in on conversations,record video,location data and much more from gyroscope,accelerometer,wifi and more. Please don't say to yourself that you would never care. If you don't care for others who have a legitimate need to fear for this then don't you complain a word when they come for you and you are forcibly put in a situation where either the authorities or someone with money is using your phones against you. I hope all countries that call themselves free pass legislature to force user accesible battery removal or hardware kill switches.