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The Swiss government issued the following guidelines [1] to prevent further spread of the virus. Masks are considered useless unless you are infected. - Wash y

The Swiss government issued the following guidelines [1] to prevent further spread of the virus. Masks are considered useless unless you are infected. - Wash your hands thoroughly. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jvcvvRp3lsY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jvcvvRp3lsY - Cough and sneeze into a paper tissue/handerchief or the crook of your arm. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M3_rFPtQgKE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M3_rFPtQgKE - If you experience shortness of breath, have a cough or fever: • Stay at home. • Contact a doctor immediately by phone or call the coronavirus infoline. • Avoid contact with those around you. • Do not go directly to the doctor or to a hospital emergency room. [1] https://www.bag.admin.ch/bag/en/home/krankheiten/ausbrueche-epidemien-pandemien/aktuelle-ausbrueche-epidemien/novel-cov.html https://www.bag.admin.ch/bag/en/home/krankheiten/ausbrueche-...

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
allovernow 7y ago
>Masks are considered useless unless you are infected Considering there are multiple papers out of china which suggest the virus is aerosolized, I think it's irresponsible for anyone to claim masks are useless PPE. Anything less than n99 or p99 might be useless, but that's a different story. There's also one paper which claims that treating a mask with saline solution makes it substantially more effective against viruses. I'll see if I can't dig it up. Governments the world over have already demonstrated that they cannot be trusted to properly handle this virus.
- Consultant32452 7y ago
  Governments have other concerns besides your individual health. They need to prevent panic as much as possible, prevent economic collapse, etc. The response to events like this can be worse than the initial problem. What do you think happens if the CDC says everyone needs to wear masks, you go to your local store, and there are no masks? There would be violence in the streets.
  - SteveNuts 7y ago
    Then why don't they have millions of masks stockpiled for an event like this?
    - owenmarshall 7y ago
      They do. But they aren’t stockpiled for you: they are stockpiled for medical professionals. And the 30 million the US has stockpiled is short by a factor of ten: https://time.com/5785223/medical-masks-coronavirus-covid-19/ https://time.com/5785223/medical-masks-coronavirus-covid-19/
    - allovernow 7y ago
      In any case we need more than masks for this. Medical equipment like mechanical ventilators, intubators, and external oxygenation machines. Those will run out very quickly.
  - allovernow 7y ago
    >They need to prevent panic as much as possible, prevent economic collapse, etc. The response to events like this can be worse than the initial problem. If this event is half as bad as all the literature out of China is suggesting, panic is the least of our worries. What a responsible government should do is initiate some sort of recommendation for gradual stockpiling of goods - perhaps a lottery just to encourage the majority of people to calmly stock up in turns. In any case the CDC has already issued warning to prepare for "severe disruption to everyday life." Now it's up to the ignorant population to wake up and realize that this isn't just another flu.
    - Consultant32452 7y ago
      There simply is not enough supplies for everyone to slowly stockpile goods. Supply chains are already being disrupted. In China beekeepers are not able to get their bees to crops. The bees are starving. This will negatively impact global honey and crop yields for years. In Italy panic buys are already leaving shelves empty. If the government tells everyone to slowly stock up what will really happen is panic buys and wide spread violence.
- loyukfai 7y ago
  Aerosolization of coronavirus seems to be mostly limited to hospital operations such as intubation? Anyhow, here in Hong Kong the virus has been, kind of, contained. Mask wearing, along with hand washing and other measures, have been adopted by the majority population. One of the problems with the Wuhan virus is that there are quite a few asymptomatic cases, and AFAIK at least one preprint study has confirmed that these hosts can transmit the virus to others, making mask wearing for "healthy" people an even more desirable measure in preventing the virus from spreading.
endorphone 7y ago
Masks are considered useless unless you are infected. This is a bizarre claim that can be countered against the reality that every front-line worker is equipped with a mask. EDIT: Almost immediately I dropped to -2. Bizarre. Again, every health agency the world over equips health workers who deal with potential COVID-19 with N95+ masks. For some reason people desperately want to clutch onto the notion that it's useless because otherwise..uncomfortable and uncool mask, right? Another poster mentioned that the source didn't even state that about masks, but instead about surgical masks which is a tiny subset. -Masks prevent aerosolized matter (e.g. a sneeze) from getting at mucous membranes (where it needs to get to yield an infection). -Masks prevent you from touching your hands to the vulnerable areas of your face. It is effectively a check. So when you touch that door handle leaving the subway station it's far less likely you'll transfer to your mouth or nose, and we naturally touch our face thousands of times a day. Ideally one would have a mental process they follow where you clean thoroughly before taking it off. Those alone seem like an absolutely enormous win for masks. https://time.com/5785223/medical-masks-coronavirus-covid-19/ https://time.com/5785223/medical-masks-coronavirus-covid-19/ https://www.livescience.com/respirators-prevent-coronavirus-infection-study.html https://www.livescience.com/respirators-prevent-coronavirus-... I'm certainly not at the point where I'm going to wear a mask in public, but the whole "Hurrr masks don't work at all" seems like either disinformation (e.g. stop buying all the masks because we want them), or people trying to comfort themselves in some bizarre way. Every bit of evidence says otherwise. The moderation through this is absolutely cartoonish and ignorant.
- aldoushuxley001 7y ago
  Frankly it's your tone that sucks. People initially thought you were referring to the generic medical masks, which are useless unless you're already sick. Being clear in your initial comment would have helped with the confusion.
  - endorphone 7y ago
    My first comment specifically indicated N95 masks. Remarkably two people have criticized me for not being specific when replying to a blanket (and incorrect) post, when I was actually specific. Amazing. Then again, the one guy claims that health-care workers only wear masks to protect patients, which is just cartoonishly incorrect (beyond in the abstract "protect patients by the healthcare workers not getting infected" way). To the point that is has to be malicious. This whole discussion is beyond ignorant. It demonstrates, again, how painful any discussion outside of code is on HN. It's almost as bad as HN talking about AGW (where it turns out 80% of the residents here are deniers). Embarrassing.
vanusa 7y ago
Masks are considered useless unless you are infected. That's not what the guidelines said. They guidelines were referring only to "hygienic masks" a.k.a. generic surgical masks: The Federal Office of Public Health (FOPH) does not recommend that people who are well wear hygienic masks (surgical masks). If you are in good health, they do not protect you effectively against an infection with respiratory viruses (i.e. self protection). Wearing a mask therefore can give you a false sense of security. This is a known point. But they did not mention -- nor did they advise against the use of -- properly rated and certified masks (such as N95 masks). Which do provide some protection (albeit with caveats). Also, just think for minute around the basic logic of what you're saying. If (properly rated and certified) masks provide "no protection" (for unprotected individuals) - then why are the health care workers using them?
- tyfon 7y ago
  You can actually increase your odds of infection by different deceases by having a paper mask since they are often uncomfortable or fit poorly and people put their hands to the face to adjust them.
  - endorphone 7y ago
    This seems like an invented rationalization given that the average person touches their face up to 3000 times a day already (up to. It is trivial to find details of this range). If you adjust a mask a few times, but in return it stops you from touching your nose/mouth constantly, that's an enormous win. And just to clarify, again people are talking about surgical masks. N95 masks, which are still "cheap paper masks", indisputably work. This is way beyond debate.
    - tyfon 7y ago
      It is what I read by an associate in microbiology and infection control [1]. I tend to listen to experts but maybe he's wrong about the field he is studying, I'm not an expert :) Translated from Norwegian: - Does a facemask help against spreading virii? - No, not when you are using it out among people. The point is that you will scratch your face and get your fingers in contact with your soft tissue. So it is counterproductive to use these regular paper masks, says associate in microbiology and infection control at the University of Southeast Norway, Jörn Klein. [1] https://www.nettavisen.no/nyheter/smittevernforsker-munnbind-hjelper-ikke-mot-dodelig-virus/3423913766.html https://www.nettavisen.no/nyheter/smittevernforsker-munnbind...
bitxbit 7y ago
Just because masks are not 100% effective doesn’t mean they’re not effective at all. The Surgeon General also dismissed masks and is spreading misinformation.
- partiallypro 7y ago
  The Surgeon General dismissed medical masks, which are useless against this virus, they were not talking about masks that are sealed to your face and actually filter germs. Your post itself is misinformation.
  - ghostpepper 7y ago
    I don't think most people know how to properly fit test an N95 respirator though.
    - iso947 7y ago
      Assuming they actually have one and not a fake one from amazon
    - bootlooped 7y ago
      Learning how is as easy as watching a 5 minute YouTube video. I have read this argument in other places and it is never mentioned that, while laypeople may not know how to properly wear a mask right now, it is not hard at all for them to learn.
  - bitxbit 7y ago
    If you think wearing a mask doesn’t reduce your risk, I have nothing to tell you. It’s so blatantly obvious.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

allovernow 7y ago

>Masks are considered useless unless you are infected Considering there are multiple papers out of china which suggest the virus is aerosolized, I think it's irresponsible for anyone to claim masks are useless PPE. Anything less than n99 or p99 might be useless, but that's a different story. There's also one paper which claims that treating a mask with saline solution makes it substantially more effective against viruses. I'll see if I can't dig it up. Governments the world over have already demonstrated that they cannot be trusted to properly handle this virus.

Consultant32452 7y ago
Governments have other concerns besides your individual health. They need to prevent panic as much as possible, prevent economic collapse, etc. The response to events like this can be worse than the initial problem. What do you think happens if the CDC says everyone needs to wear masks, you go to your local store, and there are no masks? There would be violence in the streets.
- SteveNuts 7y ago
  Then why don't they have millions of masks stockpiled for an event like this?
  - owenmarshall 7y ago
    They do. But they aren’t stockpiled for you: they are stockpiled for medical professionals. And the 30 million the US has stockpiled is short by a factor of ten: https://time.com/5785223/medical-masks-coronavirus-covid-19/ https://time.com/5785223/medical-masks-coronavirus-covid-19/
  - allovernow 7y ago
    In any case we need more than masks for this. Medical equipment like mechanical ventilators, intubators, and external oxygenation machines. Those will run out very quickly.
- allovernow 7y ago
  >They need to prevent panic as much as possible, prevent economic collapse, etc. The response to events like this can be worse than the initial problem. If this event is half as bad as all the literature out of China is suggesting, panic is the least of our worries. What a responsible government should do is initiate some sort of recommendation for gradual stockpiling of goods - perhaps a lottery just to encourage the majority of people to calmly stock up in turns. In any case the CDC has already issued warning to prepare for "severe disruption to everyday life." Now it's up to the ignorant population to wake up and realize that this isn't just another flu.
  - Consultant32452 7y ago
    There simply is not enough supplies for everyone to slowly stockpile goods. Supply chains are already being disrupted. In China beekeepers are not able to get their bees to crops. The bees are starving. This will negatively impact global honey and crop yields for years. In Italy panic buys are already leaving shelves empty. If the government tells everyone to slowly stock up what will really happen is panic buys and wide spread violence.
loyukfai 7y ago
Aerosolization of coronavirus seems to be mostly limited to hospital operations such as intubation? Anyhow, here in Hong Kong the virus has been, kind of, contained. Mask wearing, along with hand washing and other measures, have been adopted by the majority population. One of the problems with the Wuhan virus is that there are quite a few asymptomatic cases, and AFAIK at least one preprint study has confirmed that these hosts can transmit the virus to others, making mask wearing for "healthy" people an even more desirable measure in preventing the virus from spreading.

endorphone 7y ago

Masks are considered useless unless you are infected. This is a bizarre claim that can be countered against the reality that every front-line worker is equipped with a mask. EDIT: Almost immediately I dropped to -2. Bizarre. Again, every health agency the world over equips health workers who deal with potential COVID-19 with N95+ masks. For some reason people desperately want to clutch onto the notion that it's useless because otherwise..uncomfortable and uncool mask, right? Another poster mentioned that the source didn't even state that about masks, but instead about surgical masks which is a tiny subset. -Masks prevent aerosolized matter (e.g. a sneeze) from getting at mucous membranes (where it needs to get to yield an infection). -Masks prevent you from touching your hands to the vulnerable areas of your face. It is effectively a check. So when you touch that door handle leaving the subway station it's far less likely you'll transfer to your mouth or nose, and we naturally touch our face thousands of times a day. Ideally one would have a mental process they follow where you clean thoroughly before taking it off. Those alone seem like an absolutely enormous win for masks. https://time.com/5785223/medical-masks-coronavirus-covid-19/ https://time.com/5785223/medical-masks-coronavirus-covid-19/ https://www.livescience.com/respirators-prevent-coronavirus-infection-study.html https://www.livescience.com/respirators-prevent-coronavirus-... I'm certainly not at the point where I'm going to wear a mask in public, but the whole "Hurrr masks don't work at all" seems like either disinformation (e.g. stop buying all the masks because we want them), or people trying to comfort themselves in some bizarre way. Every bit of evidence says otherwise. The moderation through this is absolutely cartoonish and ignorant.

aldoushuxley001 7y ago
Frankly it's your tone that sucks. People initially thought you were referring to the generic medical masks, which are useless unless you're already sick. Being clear in your initial comment would have helped with the confusion.
- endorphone 7y ago
  My first comment specifically indicated N95 masks. Remarkably two people have criticized me for not being specific when replying to a blanket (and incorrect) post, when I was actually specific. Amazing. Then again, the one guy claims that health-care workers only wear masks to protect patients, which is just cartoonishly incorrect (beyond in the abstract "protect patients by the healthcare workers not getting infected" way). To the point that is has to be malicious. This whole discussion is beyond ignorant. It demonstrates, again, how painful any discussion outside of code is on HN. It's almost as bad as HN talking about AGW (where it turns out 80% of the residents here are deniers). Embarrassing.

vanusa 7y ago

Masks are considered useless unless you are infected. That's not what the guidelines said. They guidelines were referring only to "hygienic masks" a.k.a. generic surgical masks: The Federal Office of Public Health (FOPH) does not recommend that people who are well wear hygienic masks (surgical masks). If you are in good health, they do not protect you effectively against an infection with respiratory viruses (i.e. self protection). Wearing a mask therefore can give you a false sense of security. This is a known point. But they did not mention -- nor did they advise against the use of -- properly rated and certified masks (such as N95 masks). Which do provide some protection (albeit with caveats). Also, just think for minute around the basic logic of what you're saying. If (properly rated and certified) masks provide "no protection" (for unprotected individuals) - then why are the health care workers using them?

tyfon 7y ago
You can actually increase your odds of infection by different deceases by having a paper mask since they are often uncomfortable or fit poorly and people put their hands to the face to adjust them.
- endorphone 7y ago
  This seems like an invented rationalization given that the average person touches their face up to 3000 times a day already (up to. It is trivial to find details of this range). If you adjust a mask a few times, but in return it stops you from touching your nose/mouth constantly, that's an enormous win. And just to clarify, again people are talking about surgical masks. N95 masks, which are still "cheap paper masks", indisputably work. This is way beyond debate.
  - tyfon 7y ago
    It is what I read by an associate in microbiology and infection control [1]. I tend to listen to experts but maybe he's wrong about the field he is studying, I'm not an expert :) Translated from Norwegian: - Does a facemask help against spreading virii? - No, not when you are using it out among people. The point is that you will scratch your face and get your fingers in contact with your soft tissue. So it is counterproductive to use these regular paper masks, says associate in microbiology and infection control at the University of Southeast Norway, Jörn Klein. [1] https://www.nettavisen.no/nyheter/smittevernforsker-munnbind-hjelper-ikke-mot-dodelig-virus/3423913766.html https://www.nettavisen.no/nyheter/smittevernforsker-munnbind...

bitxbit 7y ago

Just because masks are not 100% effective doesn’t mean they’re not effective at all. The Surgeon General also dismissed masks and is spreading misinformation.

partiallypro 7y ago
The Surgeon General dismissed medical masks, which are useless against this virus, they were not talking about masks that are sealed to your face and actually filter germs. Your post itself is misinformation.
- ghostpepper 7y ago
  I don't think most people know how to properly fit test an N95 respirator though.
  - iso947 7y ago
    Assuming they actually have one and not a fake one from amazon
  - bootlooped 7y ago
    Learning how is as easy as watching a 5 minute YouTube video. I have read this argument in other places and it is never mentioned that, while laypeople may not know how to properly wear a mask right now, it is not hard at all for them to learn.
- bitxbit 7y ago
  If you think wearing a mask doesn’t reduce your risk, I have nothing to tell you. It’s so blatantly obvious.