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The Zephyr premium economy airline seat

163 points by nikhizzle 7y ago

GordonS 7y ago
This doesn't look like an improvement - I'd feel even more closed in with this configuration. If you're in a bottom seat, you've got someone's, well, bottom, right in your face - not a very appealing prospect. They also don't recline, which will make sleeping impossible or very difficult on long haul flights. I also wonder about this from a safety perspective in the even of an evacuation - I imagine you'd have panicked passengers in the top seats jumping down onto those below. And finally, even if these seats have a bigger pitch (more leg room) as a concept, airlines will simply cram more in, while keeping the same, horrible pitch of 30-32". That's not a problem with any particular design, of course, but it's what any airline is unfortunately going to do.
- tzs 7y ago
  > They also don't recline, which will make sleeping impossible or very difficult on long haul flights None of the static images show it, but at the end of the video it shows that there is space on the window side so that you can actually lie down across you seat with your legs going into that space.
  - GordonS 7y ago
    Ah, OK, I hadn't watched the video - then it might actually be a real improvement.
- gruez 7y ago
  >If you're in a bottom seat, you've got someone's, well, bottom, right in your face - not a very appealing prospect. Is this really an issue when there's a solid steel floor + seat that separates someone's ass from your face?
- seanmcdirmid 7y ago
  This is a New Zealand airliner, so it is specifically designed for long haul experiences. You can sleep actually, the seat doesn’t recline, but you can lay down at an angle. As for safety, I imagine they could just run simulations and then get it validated worth a working prototype. For the final point, again, its a New Zealand airliner, so they have different constraints at work. Everything is just very far away.
  - lozenge 7y ago
    Is it an airliner or just a startup trying to partner with an airliner? As somebody who sleeps facing right (and occasionally left) I don't see how this would be more comfortable than a reclining seat.
    - seanmcdirmid 7y ago
      Have you ever tried sleeping on a 15 hour long haul? Reclining seats don’t really work anymore and something lie flat is really appreciated. Most of this seat innovation is coming out of New Zealand for that reason, Air NZ even has a cuddle class (by three seats for two people, get an extension to turn it into a two person bed).
- wdb 7y ago
  Personally, this could be a brilliant idea. I am a person that struggles to sleep on planes due my length (6"7) and basically never sleep on flights. Especially, when the person decided to recline their seat the whole flight. Which I find really rude to do on a 12 hour flight. Normally I end up sleeping most of the day when I arrive at my destination. I slept for 24 hours after not sleeping for 32 hours (stopover plus too windy to land) when I flown to NZ.
speedgoose 7y ago
This is seems like a good idea but it's way too dangerous.
- karles 7y ago
  It's all fun and games until someone spills their hot coffee from the upper level.
  - bengerbil 7y ago
    Coffee? That's not so bad. I'd be worried about it raining vomit. Its already bad enough when fluids start flowing along the floor, hitting the coats and smaller bags stowed below seats.
dannyw 7y ago
Pretty much all the margins of a flight come from business class. If you fly economy class, your value to <Airline> comes from walking past business class and maybe being upsold.
- gamblor956 7y ago
  This is no longer true, as many companies have downgraded employee travel to premium or basic economy. Many airlines don't even have a business section anymore, and the business fare just confers an earlier boarding priority.
  - flyinglizard 7y ago
    You won’t find any major international carrier without a proper business class. Business is so good that it essentially killed first class on all but few routes. Ticket prices reflects this, with business class around 5x the cost of economy and premium economy splits them in the middle.
    - mlthoughts2018 7y ago
      Most international flight businesses class experiences are just economy class with very slightly more legroom, earlier boarding, guaranteed use of overhead bins to avoid gate checking bags, and sometimes a really low-quality free alcoholic drink. 5 or 6 years ago it was different and business class had a separate section with much roomier seats with more storage, upgraded entertainment, meals and alcohol options, and for large enough flights sometimes even a separate entrance. You are right that ticket prices can be 5x economy (probably more like 2x or 3x usually, 5x on crowded flights). But these higher prices are only for the “slightly more legroom and early bin access” tier. The quality has gone down while the prices keep shooting up. I’ve also noticed that when I paid for business class flights before, if any delays or issues came up for the flight, I would get comprehensive and immediate customer assistance to rectify it, usually even free transfers to more expensive flights or very generous hotel and meal vouchers, no questions asked. In the last two years I’ve had several issues with flight cancellations or delays and business class fares confer no advantage. No customer support, no free upgrades or transfers, and you have to set your dignity aside and act like a crazy angry person if you want even the smallest concession from the airline on hotel or meal vouchers - and this has been consistent across every major international airline.
brenden2 7y ago
Interesting, but airlines aren't going to invest in upgrading their planes unless they can raise prices (and get more money). Thus, the best case scenario is that this becomes the new business class or something. The success of low-cost carriers like Spirit have shown that people prefer cheap tickets over better service or more comfort. Maybe they'll take it to an extreme and start stacking the current seats without increasing the amount of personal space.
- soared 7y ago
  Correct - the article lists these as premium economy. It may make sense for an airline to replace 15% of sets with these and charge more. I would certainly pay another $100 for one of these on a 12+ hour flight (as would my employer).
  - GordonS 7y ago
    Premium economy is not typically another $100 - it's generally 2-4x the cost of economy.
    - axaxs 7y ago
      My biggest "problem" with premium economy is simply that it's always full. My flights are always a week out or less, and every single time it's completely full, leaving me with some near lav middle seat. It's like I want to give them money, but can't.
      - GordonS 7y ago
        I don't fly regularly any more, but I did for several years (mostly long haul), and I found the same thing - even if economy was only half-full, premium economy was almost always full. A side effect also meant it was almost impossible to use airline points to upgrade from economy, since the number of "reward" seats is very limited anyway, and always seems to be "zero" on popular routes. At the time, I always wished they would increase their premium capacity at the expense of losing some economy seats, which I figured would have reduced the cost of premium economy a bit too.
Simulacra 7y ago
There are clear disability concerns here.
- gruez 7y ago
  Why would there be if you're on the bottom level?
  - axaxs 7y ago
    LOL you innocent thing. The bottom level is going to sell out immediately, to people who don't require or need it. Look at how many front row or exit seats are taken by short people. I'm not faulting them, it's a nice seat. But as someone over 6'5 with knee problems, I curse them silently in my head every time. Same will happen here.
    - gruez 7y ago
      > The bottom level is going to sell out immediately, to people who don't require or need it. Look at how many front row or exit seats are taken by short people. This is easily solved by the market. Either charge a premium for being able to reserve the bottom seat, or auction them off. > But as someone over 6'5 with knee problems, I curse them silently in my head every time. Same will happen here. Were those exit seats simply not available because they've been booked, or because you weren't willing to pay the premium?
      - axaxs 7y ago
        Sure there exist solutions, but my point was, airlines don't do that today. I'd love to be able to auction on a front row aisle seat! To your second question, booked of course. My entire point was they'll sell any seat to any person, first come first serve. The bottom would always sell out first, regardless of those who are physically able or not to even sit on top.
        caymanjim 7y ago
remarkEon 7y ago
FTA: >Will Airlines Buy It? >Mr. O’Neill says that because the seats are stacked, airlines will not forfeit capacity. The same number of seats in today’s wide-body cabins can be accommodated using Zephyr, so it should not impact an airline’s bottom line. Mr. O’Neill explained, “The best part of this seat: it has NO heavy mechanical/electronic components. The entire seat has only 2 moving pieces inside, so the weight and direct maintenance costs for the airline are significantly reduced! Using advanced composite materials, we can build this seat at less than 50kg per unit.” This doesn't really answer the question though, right? The real question is if airlines would be willing to invest in the R&D to have stacked seating at all. Personally I'd be fine with it, but I can see a lot of people having problems with it - to say nothing of how expensive it would be to redesign the cabin.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- whoisjuan 7y ago
  I see airlines buying this, but not to redesign their economy cabin layout, but instead to increase the capacity of their premium cabin. This would never be used in an economy cabin. The whole point of economy is that at times is so uncomfortable that you have moments where you consider upgrading. If they change this to improve economy, people wouldn’t have a reason for upgrading to an upper cabin.
  - dogma1138 7y ago
    Might be even a bit more cynical they’ll push it as a premium economy option and shrink the economy class even further. I might have a strong case of selection bias but on nearly every 3-4 class config flight I’ve been on in the past 5 years had business me premium economy classes fully seated whilst economy was 60-80% full. Business travel is now economy premium by default and nearly everyone else upgrades at the airport. It seems that charging people $400 during booking then $100 at the checkin twice for upgrades is psychologically easier than charging them $600 when booking.
    - 7y ago
ThePowerOfFuet 7y ago
Is there a link which doesn't use a cookie wall?
Scene_Cast2 7y ago
This got announced in tandem with a bunk bed design - see Air New Zealand's skynest. You get more comfy bunk beds, but can't really sit. Would be good for overnight long hauls, I think.
- kmonsen 7y ago
  I love the skynest, thanks for the info! Here is a link explaining the concept: https://www.cnn.com/travel/article/air-new-zealand-economy-sleeping-pods/index.html https://www.cnn.com/travel/article/air-new-zealand-economy-s... It’s a bit limited, i wish they just fill the plane with them.
- nikhizzle 7y ago
  The skynest is being proposed as an additional service you can book (not sure if it will be paid or free). So you will have your normal seat, and then get a certain number of hours in the skynest.
vanniv 7y ago
The headline here is quite misleading. This seat is intended to compete with premium economy seats, not with economy. These seats produce the same cabin density at today's premium economy, while trying to offer a business-class-lite experience. Airlines might buy these, because if they can differentiate premium economy a bit more from regular economy, they might be able to sell more of it. Most airlines are installing only 25-30 seats in their premium economy classes, even on big birds like 777-300. If this makes the class more appealing, they may be able to install 40 seats or more instead. The fact that they are stacked, and that they don't lie flat, will keep them sufficiently distinct from true business class not to cannibalize business class sales. But, these seats won't leave room for overhead lockers. The seats have an amount of small-item storage that will feel extremely generous in Premium Economy, but without the lockers, there's no storage for bigger bags. This is also not an unsolvable problem, but airlines are exceptionally risk-averse and change-averse, so it'll take some real convincing. And then there's the accessibility and safety issues with the ladders to resolve and the question of how people will feel about the low ceiling clearance (will it feel premium? especially to people who aren't regular travelers) I do hope some airline tries it. There is a ton of room to make air travel different, but airlines are all very fearful, staid entities. For the most part, airlines consider themselves bold if they buy the same Recaro seat as every other airline, but in unique color or fabric combination.
- hkmurakami 7y ago
  Regarding overhead bin space, I think carriers and their onboard staff can adapt by using some of the overhead space in the front rows of economy class as needed, by handling PE passengers’ luggage for them, if this means added margins. The staff already partakes in similar activities when overhead space is limited and/or the passenger needs physical assistance. Given trends in economy class and how carry-on suitcase traffic jams are at times causing flight delays, I can see a future where carryon suitcases are no longer permitted for economy class passengers. We’re already on this slippery slope.
  - vanniv 7y ago
    Yes, that is one possible solution. One of the overhead lockers makers is already demoing a locker with weight sensors and colored lights intended to be part of a reservation system, where premium passengers or those paying a fee would get reserved space in specific locker locations. Of course, enforcement is hard. Airlines moving toward "basic economy" without access to lockers is becoming a thing -- and this can be enforced by making them board last and in a separate group, so the agents can check for big/multiple bags, and if a "basic" passenger does manage to cheat and find space, since they're last, they're not taking the space from a "paying customer" Airlines are moving toward an increasingly price-continuity model, where you can buy a ticket at whatever price feels acceptable to you, and there will always be another enhancement of upgrade available at a modest cost, pushing you to spend more to feel less discomfort.
earthboundkid 7y ago
Deregulation was a mistake. It turns out that flight paths are a scarce resource, and race to the bottom results in planes that are miserable to fly in. Reregulate the prices, add a carbon tax, and bring back in flight meals.
- refurb 7y ago
  If by “race to the bottom” you mean making flying more affordable for everyone, then I agree. Tickets are a fraction of what they were in the 70’s due to deregulation. And in terms of comfort, based on how full flights are, it seem like airlines have struck the right comfort versus price balance.
  - caymanjim 7y ago
    If by "balance" you mean that they found the maximum amount of pain they can inflict before mob violence breaks out.
    - dodobirdlord 7y ago
      Lower prices and less space per person means more people get to fly. And it's not like air travel is a high-profit industry. Regulating airlines to force them to raise prices and provide more space per customer is obviously evil by any sensible definition. I'm not even some sort of free-market zealot. Forcing an important product to become more exclusionary via regulation to improve the quality for non-marginal users is bad policy and also morally wrong. Raising airfare means that people on the margin are not going to be able to travel to see their dying relatives, visit family on holidays, travel for vacation, etc.
      - earthboundkid 7y ago
        Or maybe people won't move as far from their relatives in the first place. You can't just assume that more flying is better. Flying has complicated effects on society. It also has an effect on the environment, and the evidence there is overwhelming that it is a negative effect.
ben1040 7y ago
In a worst case scenario event, I’m not sure I want to have to evacuate from a smoke filled cabin and have a ladder involved in the process. Seems like a risk for falls/breaks/sprains if you’re trying to peace out of the plane quickly.
- mlthoughts2018 7y ago
  Agreed. With ladders protruding into the walkway, it’s a hazard for the person descending and everyone else behind them in the cabin, and if it’s on both sides of the aircraft, just think of the potential blockages turning regular coach class behind this section into a potential deathtrap. I think the only serious answer to this issue is to reduce the number of seats everywhere on all flights, raise prices heavily, and let the high prices and scarcity of seating dissuade people from flying except in extreme cases when it’s worth the money. Especially finding ways to force businesses to do this, and simply refactor to use teleconferencing, regional offices, etc., and stop having commercial business activities that require flights.
- sushid 7y ago
  I'd take that chance any day for a much more comfortable flight. Very rarely do you even have the chance to escape when something is wrong with your plane while it's in the air.
CamelCaseName 7y ago
I feel like this is missing something very important -- weight distribution. Premium economy in my limited experience has been closer to the front. Even if you shift it towards the center, you suddenly have a section of the plane that's far heavier than the rest. (Not to mention higher) The article was really quite brief, but I'd love to learn how that issue would be addressed.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- notahacker 7y ago
  The claimed weight is 50kg per unit - more than a modern aircraft seat but not dramatically so to the extent it's likely to unbalance anything - and they seat the same number of passengers per metre of cabin. The bigger question is how on earth they expect to get an airline safety certification for something involving passengers sitting high above the cabin floor and accessing the aisle by sliding out ladder in the middle of it
  - caymanjim 7y ago
    Trains have bunks and ladders and move around a whole lot more violently than planes.
    - dev_tty01 7y ago
      Sorry, I have to disagree here. Trains do not make multi-meter sudden vertical movements. At any rate, the concern is about egress in an emergency. In a train, every window is an emergency exit. In a plane everyone has to go down the aisle to the nearest exit. The ladders are in the aisle during use and will inhibit that process. They could of course disable the ladders during an emergency so people would have to jump or climb down, but that would certainly lead to injuries and other mishaps that would also inhibit the escape process. Hard to see the FAA certifying this unless the aisles are made wider. That would reduce overall packing density, so there goes airline's interest in the approach. It is beautiful in concept. Who wouldn't want to get horizontal during that redeye back to the east coast or the long haul to Japan? Its just hard to see the profitable and safe path to adoption.
dawnerd 7y ago
Hard pass. Just looks way more uncomfortable for everyone. Way better solution is what’s already being rolled out, optional bunk beds below deck.
sombremesa 7y ago
I can see myself (to say nothing of the elderly) falling off the stairs on long haul journeys after waking up and needing to go to the bathroom. I can see endless instances of people spilling their hot drinks and food on the stewardess as it's being handed to them. This seems like a downgrade from economy, where at least you can comfortably walk down the aisle and not get inadvertently kicked in the head.
- seanmcdirmid 7y ago
  Reminds me of a hard sleeper bunk on an overnight train. Actually, much better than that considering you can still sit if you want.
Retric 7y ago
Any numbers on how this impacts evacuation in an emergency?
ximeng 7y ago
This appears to be a concept design by an industrial designer. It's a pitch to airliners. https://vimeo.com/394558118 https://vimeo.com/394558118 shows (from 00:33) how it works in more detail. Ladder pulls out from between the seats (although see http://www.zephyrseat.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/Zephyr-Product-Architecture.png http://www.zephyrseat.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/Zephyr-... for newer built-in ladder design), and arm rest holds upper chair passengers in place. The cushion that completes the bed appears to fold out from just below tray table. Luggage goes to upper right of seat, so is securely stored and accessible during flight, a win versus traditional overhead lockers. Seat appears to be a little lower than normal. It looks like there is some additional storage space to the right of the footwell. Main issues I see are slightly awkward banana shaped sleeping position, and the safety issue for evacuating top deck. The updated built-in ladder design might be sufficient for able-bodied passengers to evacuate quickly enough. This would be much more attractive than existing premium economy to me and would compete well with business. The main differentiator of business that interests me is the lie-flat bed; the enhanced service and food / beverages, lounge access, and priority boarding and luggage delivery is less important. More details at http://www.zephyrseat.com/ http://www.zephyrseat.com/, a few additional videos here http://www.zephyrseat.com/about/ http://www.zephyrseat.com/about/ and further pictures here http://www.zephyrseat.com/work/ http://www.zephyrseat.com/work/ An alternative flat bed in a premium economy cabin with half the density is described here https://thepointsguy.com/news/new-design-premium-economy-flat-bed/ https://thepointsguy.com/news/new-design-premium-economy-fla...
- TheRealPomax 7y ago
  Just evacuating the top deck? Because the moment a single ladder is in the aisle, no one can move anymore, so it's really a matter of "even having a single one is going to fail FAA regulation".
  - ximeng 7y ago
    Check the updated design for the built-in ladders - not saying it definitely will work, but it might be possible
  - 7y ago
jjeaff 7y ago
Is this actually going to happen or just a proposal? I can't imagine this is going to pass safety standards. You can't even have your bag sticking out in the aisle or a less than able bodied person sitting in the exit row. Imagine 20 ladders jutting out into the row as passenger frantically exit an aircraft in an emergency.
- alkonaut 7y ago
  These are premium economy so 10% of the seats on a 777 or so. This means you can easily avoid any of these at exit rows. Even if these are a huge success, you’d maybe see it on 25% of a cabin. For safety, it would seem that in order to work you’d just need to show you can evacuate in 90 seconds. Whether that means ladders must be locked in when in an emergency, or that the ladders can be used but the fact you don’t have multiple people in each row makes up for the ladders blocking some space. I’m guessing it’s the former.
- DarthGhandi 7y ago
  Find it utterly bizarre the dozens of comments here about a designer who obviously put a lot of effort in didn't consider the very basics and HN commentators are so enlightened/knowledgeable they can point it out in 15 seconds. How about this counterpoint: the manufacturer knows exactly about the emergency requirements of an airplane and that's included in the design. An average size male need to half turn sideways going down an economy aisle already. When not in use these aisles would be a joy due to the buffer space, for both those in transit and those sitting. The rampant Dunning-Kruger that exists on this forum is honestly quite concerning some days. Take a step back and think whether this company has not dealt with this problem? The onus of proof is on all the commentators saying otherwise.
  - jjeaff 7y ago
    I was merely asking. But it is not uncommon at all to see marketing drawings like this that have not and have no intention of becoming a reality and so do not go through any kind of safety vetting process. In other words, in my case, it's not a matter of thinking I know better than some experts. It's that I question whether this has been vetted by any experts at all. It would not be the first time.
entee 7y ago
I can’t imagine that with stacked seating and ladders that come out and block the aisle that you could evacuate a plane in 90 seconds or less. That’s the standard for the FAA: https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/trafficandcommuting/first-of-their-kind-tests-are-aimed-at-setting-new-standards-for-airplane-seats/2019/11/28/55bcdd3a-0ae4-11ea-97ac-a7ccc8dd1ebc_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/trafficandcommuting/fir...
- jaynetics 7y ago
  Another safety issue seems to be that people would always have to wear a seatbelt in the upper row, otherwise unexpected turbulence could lead to falls and bad injuries.
  - alkonaut 7y ago
    Turbulence that bad would be the kind that causes injuries in normal seats too (by banging heads in the celing for example). Its more common and dangerous than people think and that's why we are instructed to always wear the seatbelt when seated. Cabin staff couldn't really give more than that advice to people in top seats, but perhaps people would believe that warning in this case because they can see the danger.
- raldi 7y ago
  It's not meant to fill the whole plane, just a few premium economy rows.
- alkonaut 7y ago
  If you look at a modern long haul cabin like a BA 777 [1] or the new SAS A350 [2], you'll se that the number of "economy plus" seats is quite small. It's 3 rows (18 seats) on the BA plane, and 4 rows (24 seats) on the SAS plane. It's well under 10% so even the evacuation time for the whole plane isn't going to be severely affected by the seat change in maybe 10% or 20% of the seats. There would be no emergency exit windows in this section, for example. It would be say 30 people of which half(?) would be on the upper level. So say 15 people out of 280 on a full A350. It's not nothing, but the speed of disembark in reality will be more dependent on the age of the people in economy than on whether 15 people will need to climb down from the top shelf. Obviously the idea behind making economy plus more attractive like this is to be able to sell more of it and charge more for it, so it may be that airlines want to install this on maybe 25% of a cabin, at which point it might start affecting evacuation etc. But if it's a simple swap in current economy-plus sections it wouldn't be a big issue because of how few seats that is. [1] https://www.seatguru.com/airlines/British_Airways/British_Airways_Boeing_777-200B_2.php https://www.seatguru.com/airlines/British_Airways/British_Ai... [2] https://www.seatguru.com/airlines/SAS_Airlines/SAS_Airlines_Airbus_A350-900.php https://www.seatguru.com/airlines/SAS_Airlines/SAS_Airlines_...
anon4lol 7y ago
LOL. Twice the passengers; same number of restrooms. I wonder if the extra airline profits will cover the possible payout of a lawsuit where a mother's lap baby twists out of her arms and plonks six feet down onto the hard aluminum floor. I can't wait for the first flyertalk post asking how many air miles they should get as compensation for being urinated on by a passenger overhead, or dealing with a gassy passenger overhead. Too funny.
- alkonaut 7y ago
  It’s not twice the number of passengers it’s the same amount of passengers as today’s premium economy? Is the article really that cryptic?
gshdg 7y ago
If this gets adopted, I give it <10 years before someone has the bright idea to return seat size to current values while doubling capacity by adding the second story.
gok 7y ago
Realistically—if this ever gets approved by regulators—airlines will just sell this as business class.
fortran77 7y ago
One thing that would really help is to charge oversized passengers more than right-sized passengers, and have separate seating areas. One of the most uncomfortable things about flying coach is having to sit next to an oversized person.
simonebrunozzi 7y ago
It looks a terrible design to me. I'd rather go for minimal changes to economy seats to improve the "low hanging fruit" problems that humans have when traveling. An example? Staggered seats to avoid "elbowing" or "shouldering" - common problem in the US where people are "bigger" than elsewhere, compared to e.g. Asia. Who am I? A CS engineer with ~1,000 flights in the last 12 years, ~97% in economy, all over the world except Antartica. My comment here is simply based on some common sense. No specific skillset.
- Trias11 7y ago
  "elbowing" or "shouldering" could be eliminated by small vertical separators. These doesn't need to be big - just something separating elbow space and shoulder space to prevent spilling one passenger's body over to another's space.
olliej 7y ago
How can this possibly work with the (immensely sensible) FAA complete evacuation time rules? It’s already challenging to get people evacuated in a sensible amount of time without people having to use ladders. The ladders make leaving the seat harder as it is, and then you have people going against the evacuation flow (they’re blocking the aisles while they climb down).
aaron695 7y ago
Has there ever been a newspaper article "New seat design" that has actually ended up with a new seat design in production? If there a list of these weekly stories? Out their idea, anyone can design seats including aircraft manufactures, so if it works they will just do it themselves, except they know what regulations to follow and what passengers will actually want. Same with the monthly better boarding stories.
eternalny1 7y ago
If this doesn't require widening the aisle, then a ladder in it is in foul of thousands of airline safety regulations. If they need widen the aisle, there goes the cost savings for seat capacity, or narrower seats.

163 points by nikhizzle 7y ago

This doesn't look like an improvement - I'd feel even more closed in with this configuration. If you're in a bottom seat, you've got someone's, well, bottom, right in your face - not a very appealing prospect. They also don't recline, which will make sleeping impossible or very difficult on long haul flights. I also wonder about this from a safety perspective in the even of an evacuation - I imagine you'd have panicked passengers in the top seats jumping down onto those below. And finally, even if these seats have a bigger pitch (more leg room) as a concept, airlines will simply cram more in, while keeping the same, horrible pitch of 30-32". That's not a problem with any particular design, of course, but it's what any airline is unfortunately going to do.

tzs 7y ago
> They also don't recline, which will make sleeping impossible or very difficult on long haul flights None of the static images show it, but at the end of the video it shows that there is space on the window side so that you can actually lie down across you seat with your legs going into that space.
- GordonS 7y ago
  Ah, OK, I hadn't watched the video - then it might actually be a real improvement.
gruez 7y ago
>If you're in a bottom seat, you've got someone's, well, bottom, right in your face - not a very appealing prospect. Is this really an issue when there's a solid steel floor + seat that separates someone's ass from your face?
seanmcdirmid 7y ago
This is a New Zealand airliner, so it is specifically designed for long haul experiences. You can sleep actually, the seat doesn’t recline, but you can lay down at an angle. As for safety, I imagine they could just run simulations and then get it validated worth a working prototype. For the final point, again, its a New Zealand airliner, so they have different constraints at work. Everything is just very far away.
- lozenge 7y ago
  Is it an airliner or just a startup trying to partner with an airliner? As somebody who sleeps facing right (and occasionally left) I don't see how this would be more comfortable than a reclining seat.
  - seanmcdirmid 7y ago
    Have you ever tried sleeping on a 15 hour long haul? Reclining seats don’t really work anymore and something lie flat is really appreciated. Most of this seat innovation is coming out of New Zealand for that reason, Air NZ even has a cuddle class (by three seats for two people, get an extension to turn it into a two person bed).
wdb 7y ago
Personally, this could be a brilliant idea. I am a person that struggles to sleep on planes due my length (6"7) and basically never sleep on flights. Especially, when the person decided to recline their seat the whole flight. Which I find really rude to do on a 12 hour flight. Normally I end up sleeping most of the day when I arrive at my destination. I slept for 24 hours after not sleeping for 32 hours (stopover plus too windy to land) when I flown to NZ.

speedgoose 7y ago

This is seems like a good idea but it's way too dangerous.

karles 7y ago
It's all fun and games until someone spills their hot coffee from the upper level.
- bengerbil 7y ago
  Coffee? That's not so bad. I'd be worried about it raining vomit. Its already bad enough when fluids start flowing along the floor, hitting the coats and smaller bags stowed below seats.

dannyw 7y ago

Pretty much all the margins of a flight come from business class. If you fly economy class, your value to <Airline> comes from walking past business class and maybe being upsold.

gamblor956 7y ago
This is no longer true, as many companies have downgraded employee travel to premium or basic economy. Many airlines don't even have a business section anymore, and the business fare just confers an earlier boarding priority.
- flyinglizard 7y ago
  You won’t find any major international carrier without a proper business class. Business is so good that it essentially killed first class on all but few routes. Ticket prices reflects this, with business class around 5x the cost of economy and premium economy splits them in the middle.
  - mlthoughts2018 7y ago
    Most international flight businesses class experiences are just economy class with very slightly more legroom, earlier boarding, guaranteed use of overhead bins to avoid gate checking bags, and sometimes a really low-quality free alcoholic drink. 5 or 6 years ago it was different and business class had a separate section with much roomier seats with more storage, upgraded entertainment, meals and alcohol options, and for large enough flights sometimes even a separate entrance. You are right that ticket prices can be 5x economy (probably more like 2x or 3x usually, 5x on crowded flights). But these higher prices are only for the “slightly more legroom and early bin access” tier. The quality has gone down while the prices keep shooting up. I’ve also noticed that when I paid for business class flights before, if any delays or issues came up for the flight, I would get comprehensive and immediate customer assistance to rectify it, usually even free transfers to more expensive flights or very generous hotel and meal vouchers, no questions asked. In the last two years I’ve had several issues with flight cancellations or delays and business class fares confer no advantage. No customer support, no free upgrades or transfers, and you have to set your dignity aside and act like a crazy angry person if you want even the smallest concession from the airline on hotel or meal vouchers - and this has been consistent across every major international airline.

brenden2 7y ago

Interesting, but airlines aren't going to invest in upgrading their planes unless they can raise prices (and get more money). Thus, the best case scenario is that this becomes the new business class or something. The success of low-cost carriers like Spirit have shown that people prefer cheap tickets over better service or more comfort. Maybe they'll take it to an extreme and start stacking the current seats without increasing the amount of personal space.

soared 7y ago
Correct - the article lists these as premium economy. It may make sense for an airline to replace 15% of sets with these and charge more. I would certainly pay another $100 for one of these on a 12+ hour flight (as would my employer).
- GordonS 7y ago
  Premium economy is not typically another $100 - it's generally 2-4x the cost of economy.
  - axaxs 7y ago
    My biggest "problem" with premium economy is simply that it's always full. My flights are always a week out or less, and every single time it's completely full, leaving me with some near lav middle seat. It's like I want to give them money, but can't.
    - GordonS 7y ago
      I don't fly regularly any more, but I did for several years (mostly long haul), and I found the same thing - even if economy was only half-full, premium economy was almost always full. A side effect also meant it was almost impossible to use airline points to upgrade from economy, since the number of "reward" seats is very limited anyway, and always seems to be "zero" on popular routes. At the time, I always wished they would increase their premium capacity at the expense of losing some economy seats, which I figured would have reduced the cost of premium economy a bit too.

Simulacra 7y ago

There are clear disability concerns here.

gruez 7y ago
Why would there be if you're on the bottom level?
- axaxs 7y ago
  LOL you innocent thing. The bottom level is going to sell out immediately, to people who don't require or need it. Look at how many front row or exit seats are taken by short people. I'm not faulting them, it's a nice seat. But as someone over 6'5 with knee problems, I curse them silently in my head every time. Same will happen here.
  - gruez 7y ago
    > The bottom level is going to sell out immediately, to people who don't require or need it. Look at how many front row or exit seats are taken by short people. This is easily solved by the market. Either charge a premium for being able to reserve the bottom seat, or auction them off. > But as someone over 6'5 with knee problems, I curse them silently in my head every time. Same will happen here. Were those exit seats simply not available because they've been booked, or because you weren't willing to pay the premium?
    - axaxs 7y ago
      Sure there exist solutions, but my point was, airlines don't do that today. I'd love to be able to auction on a front row aisle seat! To your second question, booked of course. My entire point was they'll sell any seat to any person, first come first serve. The bottom would always sell out first, regardless of those who are physically able or not to even sit on top.
      - caymanjim 7y ago

remarkEon 7y ago

FTA: >Will Airlines Buy It? >Mr. O’Neill says that because the seats are stacked, airlines will not forfeit capacity. The same number of seats in today’s wide-body cabins can be accommodated using Zephyr, so it should not impact an airline’s bottom line. Mr. O’Neill explained, “The best part of this seat: it has NO heavy mechanical/electronic components. The entire seat has only 2 moving pieces inside, so the weight and direct maintenance costs for the airline are significantly reduced! Using advanced composite materials, we can build this seat at less than 50kg per unit.” This doesn't really answer the question though, right? The real question is if airlines would be willing to invest in the R&D to have stacked seating at all. Personally I'd be fine with it, but I can see a lot of people having problems with it - to say nothing of how expensive it would be to redesign the cabin.

deleted 7y ago
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whoisjuan 7y ago
I see airlines buying this, but not to redesign their economy cabin layout, but instead to increase the capacity of their premium cabin. This would never be used in an economy cabin. The whole point of economy is that at times is so uncomfortable that you have moments where you consider upgrading. If they change this to improve economy, people wouldn’t have a reason for upgrading to an upper cabin.
- dogma1138 7y ago
  Might be even a bit more cynical they’ll push it as a premium economy option and shrink the economy class even further. I might have a strong case of selection bias but on nearly every 3-4 class config flight I’ve been on in the past 5 years had business me premium economy classes fully seated whilst economy was 60-80% full. Business travel is now economy premium by default and nearly everyone else upgrades at the airport. It seems that charging people $400 during booking then $100 at the checkin twice for upgrades is psychologically easier than charging them $600 when booking.
  - 7y ago

ThePowerOfFuet 7y ago

Is there a link which doesn't use a cookie wall?

Scene_Cast2 7y ago

This got announced in tandem with a bunk bed design - see Air New Zealand's skynest. You get more comfy bunk beds, but can't really sit. Would be good for overnight long hauls, I think.

kmonsen 7y ago
I love the skynest, thanks for the info! Here is a link explaining the concept: https://www.cnn.com/travel/article/air-new-zealand-economy-sleeping-pods/index.html https://www.cnn.com/travel/article/air-new-zealand-economy-s... It’s a bit limited, i wish they just fill the plane with them.
nikhizzle 7y ago
The skynest is being proposed as an additional service you can book (not sure if it will be paid or free). So you will have your normal seat, and then get a certain number of hours in the skynest.

vanniv 7y ago

The headline here is quite misleading. This seat is intended to compete with premium economy seats, not with economy. These seats produce the same cabin density at today's premium economy, while trying to offer a business-class-lite experience. Airlines might buy these, because if they can differentiate premium economy a bit more from regular economy, they might be able to sell more of it. Most airlines are installing only 25-30 seats in their premium economy classes, even on big birds like 777-300. If this makes the class more appealing, they may be able to install 40 seats or more instead. The fact that they are stacked, and that they don't lie flat, will keep them sufficiently distinct from true business class not to cannibalize business class sales. But, these seats won't leave room for overhead lockers. The seats have an amount of small-item storage that will feel extremely generous in Premium Economy, but without the lockers, there's no storage for bigger bags. This is also not an unsolvable problem, but airlines are exceptionally risk-averse and change-averse, so it'll take some real convincing. And then there's the accessibility and safety issues with the ladders to resolve and the question of how people will feel about the low ceiling clearance (will it feel premium? especially to people who aren't regular travelers) I do hope some airline tries it. There is a ton of room to make air travel different, but airlines are all very fearful, staid entities. For the most part, airlines consider themselves bold if they buy the same Recaro seat as every other airline, but in unique color or fabric combination.

hkmurakami 7y ago
Regarding overhead bin space, I think carriers and their onboard staff can adapt by using some of the overhead space in the front rows of economy class as needed, by handling PE passengers’ luggage for them, if this means added margins. The staff already partakes in similar activities when overhead space is limited and/or the passenger needs physical assistance. Given trends in economy class and how carry-on suitcase traffic jams are at times causing flight delays, I can see a future where carryon suitcases are no longer permitted for economy class passengers. We’re already on this slippery slope.
- vanniv 7y ago
  Yes, that is one possible solution. One of the overhead lockers makers is already demoing a locker with weight sensors and colored lights intended to be part of a reservation system, where premium passengers or those paying a fee would get reserved space in specific locker locations. Of course, enforcement is hard. Airlines moving toward "basic economy" without access to lockers is becoming a thing -- and this can be enforced by making them board last and in a separate group, so the agents can check for big/multiple bags, and if a "basic" passenger does manage to cheat and find space, since they're last, they're not taking the space from a "paying customer" Airlines are moving toward an increasingly price-continuity model, where you can buy a ticket at whatever price feels acceptable to you, and there will always be another enhancement of upgrade available at a modest cost, pushing you to spend more to feel less discomfort.

earthboundkid 7y ago

Deregulation was a mistake. It turns out that flight paths are a scarce resource, and race to the bottom results in planes that are miserable to fly in. Reregulate the prices, add a carbon tax, and bring back in flight meals.

refurb 7y ago
If by “race to the bottom” you mean making flying more affordable for everyone, then I agree. Tickets are a fraction of what they were in the 70’s due to deregulation. And in terms of comfort, based on how full flights are, it seem like airlines have struck the right comfort versus price balance.
- caymanjim 7y ago
  If by "balance" you mean that they found the maximum amount of pain they can inflict before mob violence breaks out.
  - dodobirdlord 7y ago
    Lower prices and less space per person means more people get to fly. And it's not like air travel is a high-profit industry. Regulating airlines to force them to raise prices and provide more space per customer is obviously evil by any sensible definition. I'm not even some sort of free-market zealot. Forcing an important product to become more exclusionary via regulation to improve the quality for non-marginal users is bad policy and also morally wrong. Raising airfare means that people on the margin are not going to be able to travel to see their dying relatives, visit family on holidays, travel for vacation, etc.
    - earthboundkid 7y ago
      Or maybe people won't move as far from their relatives in the first place. You can't just assume that more flying is better. Flying has complicated effects on society. It also has an effect on the environment, and the evidence there is overwhelming that it is a negative effect.

ben1040 7y ago

In a worst case scenario event, I’m not sure I want to have to evacuate from a smoke filled cabin and have a ladder involved in the process. Seems like a risk for falls/breaks/sprains if you’re trying to peace out of the plane quickly.

mlthoughts2018 7y ago
Agreed. With ladders protruding into the walkway, it’s a hazard for the person descending and everyone else behind them in the cabin, and if it’s on both sides of the aircraft, just think of the potential blockages turning regular coach class behind this section into a potential deathtrap. I think the only serious answer to this issue is to reduce the number of seats everywhere on all flights, raise prices heavily, and let the high prices and scarcity of seating dissuade people from flying except in extreme cases when it’s worth the money. Especially finding ways to force businesses to do this, and simply refactor to use teleconferencing, regional offices, etc., and stop having commercial business activities that require flights.
sushid 7y ago
I'd take that chance any day for a much more comfortable flight. Very rarely do you even have the chance to escape when something is wrong with your plane while it's in the air.

CamelCaseName 7y ago

I feel like this is missing something very important -- weight distribution. Premium economy in my limited experience has been closer to the front. Even if you shift it towards the center, you suddenly have a section of the plane that's far heavier than the rest. (Not to mention higher) The article was really quite brief, but I'd love to learn how that issue would be addressed.

deleted 7y ago
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notahacker 7y ago
The claimed weight is 50kg per unit - more than a modern aircraft seat but not dramatically so to the extent it's likely to unbalance anything - and they seat the same number of passengers per metre of cabin. The bigger question is how on earth they expect to get an airline safety certification for something involving passengers sitting high above the cabin floor and accessing the aisle by sliding out ladder in the middle of it
- caymanjim 7y ago
  Trains have bunks and ladders and move around a whole lot more violently than planes.
  - dev_tty01 7y ago
    Sorry, I have to disagree here. Trains do not make multi-meter sudden vertical movements. At any rate, the concern is about egress in an emergency. In a train, every window is an emergency exit. In a plane everyone has to go down the aisle to the nearest exit. The ladders are in the aisle during use and will inhibit that process. They could of course disable the ladders during an emergency so people would have to jump or climb down, but that would certainly lead to injuries and other mishaps that would also inhibit the escape process. Hard to see the FAA certifying this unless the aisles are made wider. That would reduce overall packing density, so there goes airline's interest in the approach. It is beautiful in concept. Who wouldn't want to get horizontal during that redeye back to the east coast or the long haul to Japan? Its just hard to see the profitable and safe path to adoption.

dawnerd 7y ago

Hard pass. Just looks way more uncomfortable for everyone. Way better solution is what’s already being rolled out, optional bunk beds below deck.

sombremesa 7y ago

I can see myself (to say nothing of the elderly) falling off the stairs on long haul journeys after waking up and needing to go to the bathroom. I can see endless instances of people spilling their hot drinks and food on the stewardess as it's being handed to them. This seems like a downgrade from economy, where at least you can comfortably walk down the aisle and not get inadvertently kicked in the head.

seanmcdirmid 7y ago
Reminds me of a hard sleeper bunk on an overnight train. Actually, much better than that considering you can still sit if you want.

Retric 7y ago

Any numbers on how this impacts evacuation in an emergency?

ximeng 7y ago

This appears to be a concept design by an industrial designer. It's a pitch to airliners. https://vimeo.com/394558118 https://vimeo.com/394558118 shows (from 00:33) how it works in more detail. Ladder pulls out from between the seats (although see http://www.zephyrseat.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/Zephyr-Product-Architecture.png http://www.zephyrseat.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/Zephyr-... for newer built-in ladder design), and arm rest holds upper chair passengers in place. The cushion that completes the bed appears to fold out from just below tray table. Luggage goes to upper right of seat, so is securely stored and accessible during flight, a win versus traditional overhead lockers. Seat appears to be a little lower than normal. It looks like there is some additional storage space to the right of the footwell. Main issues I see are slightly awkward banana shaped sleeping position, and the safety issue for evacuating top deck. The updated built-in ladder design might be sufficient for able-bodied passengers to evacuate quickly enough. This would be much more attractive than existing premium economy to me and would compete well with business. The main differentiator of business that interests me is the lie-flat bed; the enhanced service and food / beverages, lounge access, and priority boarding and luggage delivery is less important. More details at http://www.zephyrseat.com/ http://www.zephyrseat.com/, a few additional videos here http://www.zephyrseat.com/about/ http://www.zephyrseat.com/about/ and further pictures here http://www.zephyrseat.com/work/ http://www.zephyrseat.com/work/ An alternative flat bed in a premium economy cabin with half the density is described here https://thepointsguy.com/news/new-design-premium-economy-flat-bed/ https://thepointsguy.com/news/new-design-premium-economy-fla...

TheRealPomax 7y ago
Just evacuating the top deck? Because the moment a single ladder is in the aisle, no one can move anymore, so it's really a matter of "even having a single one is going to fail FAA regulation".
- ximeng 7y ago
  Check the updated design for the built-in ladders - not saying it definitely will work, but it might be possible
- 7y ago

jjeaff 7y ago

Is this actually going to happen or just a proposal? I can't imagine this is going to pass safety standards. You can't even have your bag sticking out in the aisle or a less than able bodied person sitting in the exit row. Imagine 20 ladders jutting out into the row as passenger frantically exit an aircraft in an emergency.

alkonaut 7y ago
These are premium economy so 10% of the seats on a 777 or so. This means you can easily avoid any of these at exit rows. Even if these are a huge success, you’d maybe see it on 25% of a cabin. For safety, it would seem that in order to work you’d just need to show you can evacuate in 90 seconds. Whether that means ladders must be locked in when in an emergency, or that the ladders can be used but the fact you don’t have multiple people in each row makes up for the ladders blocking some space. I’m guessing it’s the former.
DarthGhandi 7y ago
Find it utterly bizarre the dozens of comments here about a designer who obviously put a lot of effort in didn't consider the very basics and HN commentators are so enlightened/knowledgeable they can point it out in 15 seconds. How about this counterpoint: the manufacturer knows exactly about the emergency requirements of an airplane and that's included in the design. An average size male need to half turn sideways going down an economy aisle already. When not in use these aisles would be a joy due to the buffer space, for both those in transit and those sitting. The rampant Dunning-Kruger that exists on this forum is honestly quite concerning some days. Take a step back and think whether this company has not dealt with this problem? The onus of proof is on all the commentators saying otherwise.
- jjeaff 7y ago
  I was merely asking. But it is not uncommon at all to see marketing drawings like this that have not and have no intention of becoming a reality and so do not go through any kind of safety vetting process. In other words, in my case, it's not a matter of thinking I know better than some experts. It's that I question whether this has been vetted by any experts at all. It would not be the first time.

entee 7y ago

I can’t imagine that with stacked seating and ladders that come out and block the aisle that you could evacuate a plane in 90 seconds or less. That’s the standard for the FAA: https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/trafficandcommuting/first-of-their-kind-tests-are-aimed-at-setting-new-standards-for-airplane-seats/2019/11/28/55bcdd3a-0ae4-11ea-97ac-a7ccc8dd1ebc_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/trafficandcommuting/fir...

jaynetics 7y ago
Another safety issue seems to be that people would always have to wear a seatbelt in the upper row, otherwise unexpected turbulence could lead to falls and bad injuries.
- alkonaut 7y ago
  Turbulence that bad would be the kind that causes injuries in normal seats too (by banging heads in the celing for example). Its more common and dangerous than people think and that's why we are instructed to always wear the seatbelt when seated. Cabin staff couldn't really give more than that advice to people in top seats, but perhaps people would believe that warning in this case because they can see the danger.
raldi 7y ago
It's not meant to fill the whole plane, just a few premium economy rows.
alkonaut 7y ago
If you look at a modern long haul cabin like a BA 777 [1] or the new SAS A350 [2], you'll se that the number of "economy plus" seats is quite small. It's 3 rows (18 seats) on the BA plane, and 4 rows (24 seats) on the SAS plane. It's well under 10% so even the evacuation time for the whole plane isn't going to be severely affected by the seat change in maybe 10% or 20% of the seats. There would be no emergency exit windows in this section, for example. It would be say 30 people of which half(?) would be on the upper level. So say 15 people out of 280 on a full A350. It's not nothing, but the speed of disembark in reality will be more dependent on the age of the people in economy than on whether 15 people will need to climb down from the top shelf. Obviously the idea behind making economy plus more attractive like this is to be able to sell more of it and charge more for it, so it may be that airlines want to install this on maybe 25% of a cabin, at which point it might start affecting evacuation etc. But if it's a simple swap in current economy-plus sections it wouldn't be a big issue because of how few seats that is. [1] https://www.seatguru.com/airlines/British_Airways/British_Airways_Boeing_777-200B_2.php https://www.seatguru.com/airlines/British_Airways/British_Ai... [2] https://www.seatguru.com/airlines/SAS_Airlines/SAS_Airlines_Airbus_A350-900.php https://www.seatguru.com/airlines/SAS_Airlines/SAS_Airlines_...

anon4lol 7y ago

LOL. Twice the passengers; same number of restrooms. I wonder if the extra airline profits will cover the possible payout of a lawsuit where a mother's lap baby twists out of her arms and plonks six feet down onto the hard aluminum floor. I can't wait for the first flyertalk post asking how many air miles they should get as compensation for being urinated on by a passenger overhead, or dealing with a gassy passenger overhead. Too funny.

alkonaut 7y ago
It’s not twice the number of passengers it’s the same amount of passengers as today’s premium economy? Is the article really that cryptic?

gshdg 7y ago

If this gets adopted, I give it <10 years before someone has the bright idea to return seat size to current values while doubling capacity by adding the second story.

gok 7y ago

Realistically—if this ever gets approved by regulators—airlines will just sell this as business class.

fortran77 7y ago

One thing that would really help is to charge oversized passengers more than right-sized passengers, and have separate seating areas. One of the most uncomfortable things about flying coach is having to sit next to an oversized person.

simonebrunozzi 7y ago

It looks a terrible design to me. I'd rather go for minimal changes to economy seats to improve the "low hanging fruit" problems that humans have when traveling. An example? Staggered seats to avoid "elbowing" or "shouldering" - common problem in the US where people are "bigger" than elsewhere, compared to e.g. Asia. Who am I? A CS engineer with ~1,000 flights in the last 12 years, ~97% in economy, all over the world except Antartica. My comment here is simply based on some common sense. No specific skillset.

Trias11 7y ago
"elbowing" or "shouldering" could be eliminated by small vertical separators. These doesn't need to be big - just something separating elbow space and shoulder space to prevent spilling one passenger's body over to another's space.

olliej 7y ago

How can this possibly work with the (immensely sensible) FAA complete evacuation time rules? It’s already challenging to get people evacuated in a sensible amount of time without people having to use ladders. The ladders make leaving the seat harder as it is, and then you have people going against the evacuation flow (they’re blocking the aisles while they climb down).

aaron695 7y ago

Has there ever been a newspaper article "New seat design" that has actually ended up with a new seat design in production? If there a list of these weekly stories? Out their idea, anyone can design seats including aircraft manufactures, so if it works they will just do it themselves, except they know what regulations to follow and what passengers will actually want. Same with the monthly better boarding stories.

eternalny1 7y ago

If this doesn't require widening the aisle, then a ladder in it is in foul of thousands of airline safety regulations. If they need widen the aisle, there goes the cost savings for seat capacity, or narrower seats.