7 ms·

As a Dutchie blunders like the one you mention are so stupifying... Takes you a ten minute visit to NL to figure out why you need to separate modalities consist

by brnt 7y ago

As a Dutchie blunders like the one you mention are so stupifying... Takes you a ten minute visit to NL to figure out why you need to separate modalities consistently, yet even as close as Germany and France cities are designed so obviously by people who never ever bike.

ChuckNorris89 7y ago
Same in Austria, we simply grew accustomed to bikes sharing the road with cars, busses and trams which I'm sure would be terrifying to someone from NL. The problem is, after the post war boom, the cities were planned for cars and now there's simply no space left for cycling lanes unless we ban cars which as much as I wish for will never happen in my lifetime.
- abyssin 7y ago
  Why do you think it will never happen? It did happen and is happening in several places, like Brussels at the moment.
  - ghaff 7y ago
    I was in Brussels a few weeks ago. And, while the work is still in progress, my reaction was that the area near the Bourse was much more inviting than in times past. I've actually been sort of negative on Brussels previously and I didn't feel that to the same degree this year.
- Symbiote 7y ago
  Don't be too pessimistic. London has seen big improvements in the last few years [1]. It's still early -- many journeys won't join up, so they're less appealing for many people -- but I was surprised at the improvements last time I visited. They've removed car lanes on some fairly major roads, and successfully ignored protests from taxi drivers etc. [1] https://ecf.com/news-and-events/news/evolution-cycle-superhighways-london https://ecf.com/news-and-events/news/evolution-cycle-superhi...
- Quequau 7y ago
  I live in Graz and I'm hard of hearing. Hearing aids make locating where some kinds of sounds come from difficult, so I miss a lot of acoustic cues that pedestrians use to navigate their way through busy places. I've been run down once by a bicyclist and once by a skateboarder while I was walking on mixed use pathways. The skateboarder took a harder fall than I did, still helped me up, and sincerely apologized. I fractured my wrist in my fall when the bicyclist hit me and not only did they not stop, they yelled at me as they cycled away. Anyway, I too would support limiting the use of cars as well as on street parking in city centres and other similar zones.
  - close04 7y ago
    Bikes shouldn't share the lane with pedestrians any more than they should share it with cars. In an ideal world they would look more like Danish ones, with all 3 separated by at least a small kerb. This helps pedestrians, cyclists, and drivers alike. Cycling in Denmark was the best cycling experience I ever had relative to the way bike lanes are designed (definitely not related to the cyclists that were sometimes falling like bowling pins when the huge crowd was starting to move at a green light). Getting used to some bad compromise hardly makes it good.
    - ghaff 7y ago
      There's (literally) one street in a nearby city that, during a redesign a few years back, basically embedded a bike lane in the sidewalk. It's sort of a hazard. It's moderately busy for both pedestrians and bikes and, given that this is an extremely atypical configuration, pedestrians are simply not used to looking out for bikes zipping down this bike lane (sometimes even in the direction that they're supposed to be traveling on a given side and maybe with lights on at night). I'm there often enough that I'm careful but I've still come closer to being hit a couple of times as a pedestrian than I'd like.
      - AndyMcConachie 7y ago
        The Rue de la Loi is Brussels is notorious for this. They removed a lane of traffic a few years ago and added a bike lane at the same level as the sidewalk. Incredibly dangerous to pedestrians and cyclists. https://www.google.com/maps/@50.8445626,4.3736092,3a,75y,270h,90t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s4PMJ5RMPUx3HiPI67uQNcA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192 https://www.google.com/maps/@50.8445626,4.3736092,3a,75y,270...
- fit2rule 7y ago
  Vienna has a few roads recently been closed off to cars, and there are more coming. I'd say the cities of Austria appear to be paying attention to the advantages of this approach, generally a little more these days ..
- adrianN 7y ago
  In most cities it would be enough to ban roadside parking on larger roads to get enough space for safe bike lanes. That's very different from banning cars.
- dr_dshiv 7y ago
  Car-focused infrastructure planning was intense in NL too -- separate bike lanes were a very late addition (after the famous "stop murdering our children" campaign against pedestrian deaths)
- AndyMcConachie 7y ago
  I'm a Dutchie who's also spent time in Salzburg and the percentage of people riding bikes is different. If Salzburg had to support the scale of bicycles that Utrecht does it would require a radical redesign of the roads in Salzburg. Can't speak for other Austrian cities other than Salzburg, though.
IshKebab 7y ago
Yes, I saw a video recently talking about how stupid it is to use the common term "vulnerable road users". It lumps cyclists and pedestrians together even though their needs are very different. "We'll just put all the vulnerable road users off to the side here. Cyclists don't mind if they have to cross a road at every single junction right?"
swiley 7y ago
IMO: you don’t to see that, you just need to have ever driven a car with other cars on the road to understand why vehicles going different speeds shouldn’t share the same lanes.
- u801e 7y ago
  Which is why drivers typically change lanes to pass. Unfortunately, most bike paths are rather narrow and preclude that possibility when you get stuck behind a slower cyclist or pedestrian.
jiofih 7y ago
The curb is a hazard to cyclists, more so than a crash with inattentive pedestrians. The majority of Dutch cycle lanes are level with the sidewalk and how often do you hear of accidents (not caused by mopeds)?
- callmeal 7y ago
  A crash is hazardous to inattentive pedestrians more so than a cyclist who is better protected (helmet/gear). What to do, what to do?
  - jiofih 7y ago
    Cyclists in NL do not wear any protective gear.
- ghaff 7y ago
  It may be worth noting that there are so many bicycles in Dutch cities that, as a pedestrian, you learn very quickly that you have to be every bit as aware of them (if not more so) than you are of cars. It's mostly a pretty different situation that the occasional bike bombing down an unseparated lane on a sidewalk. It can work OK when you have wide paths that have lots of different types of users on them. It's less good when you have fairly narrow sidewalks.
- Symbiote 7y ago
  > The majority of Dutch cycle lanes are level with the sidewalk That doesn't fit with my memories of visiting the Netherlands, or a quick Streetview-tour of The Hague. https://www.google.com/maps/@52.0645825,4.2251355,3a,75y,172.42h,96.53t/data=!3m10!1e1!3m8!1s-fuY7lddUbRUcIBbDxJkuA!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo1.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3D-fuY7lddUbRUcIBbDxJkuA%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D78.9247%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192!9m2!1b1!2i15 https://www.google.com/maps/@52.0645825,4.2251355,3a,75y,172...
  - jiofih 7y ago
    That is considered “level” - pedestrians will wander into it anyway (mostly tourists) since there is no perceivable barrier unless there is enough traffic.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
asdff 7y ago
You don't have to go as far as the netherlands. On the santa monica bike path people absentmindedly stumble into it, imagining it to be a sidewalk, and cause chaos when 80 rental bikes and 15 electric scooters begin to pile up and all attempt to merge and pass the wandering geriatric in the path at once.

by brnt 7y ago

ChuckNorris89 7y ago

Same in Austria, we simply grew accustomed to bikes sharing the road with cars, busses and trams which I'm sure would be terrifying to someone from NL. The problem is, after the post war boom, the cities were planned for cars and now there's simply no space left for cycling lanes unless we ban cars which as much as I wish for will never happen in my lifetime.

abyssin 7y ago
Why do you think it will never happen? It did happen and is happening in several places, like Brussels at the moment.
- ghaff 7y ago
  I was in Brussels a few weeks ago. And, while the work is still in progress, my reaction was that the area near the Bourse was much more inviting than in times past. I've actually been sort of negative on Brussels previously and I didn't feel that to the same degree this year.
Symbiote 7y ago
Don't be too pessimistic. London has seen big improvements in the last few years [1]. It's still early -- many journeys won't join up, so they're less appealing for many people -- but I was surprised at the improvements last time I visited. They've removed car lanes on some fairly major roads, and successfully ignored protests from taxi drivers etc. [1] https://ecf.com/news-and-events/news/evolution-cycle-superhighways-london https://ecf.com/news-and-events/news/evolution-cycle-superhi...
Quequau 7y ago
I live in Graz and I'm hard of hearing. Hearing aids make locating where some kinds of sounds come from difficult, so I miss a lot of acoustic cues that pedestrians use to navigate their way through busy places. I've been run down once by a bicyclist and once by a skateboarder while I was walking on mixed use pathways. The skateboarder took a harder fall than I did, still helped me up, and sincerely apologized. I fractured my wrist in my fall when the bicyclist hit me and not only did they not stop, they yelled at me as they cycled away. Anyway, I too would support limiting the use of cars as well as on street parking in city centres and other similar zones.
- close04 7y ago
  Bikes shouldn't share the lane with pedestrians any more than they should share it with cars. In an ideal world they would look more like Danish ones, with all 3 separated by at least a small kerb. This helps pedestrians, cyclists, and drivers alike. Cycling in Denmark was the best cycling experience I ever had relative to the way bike lanes are designed (definitely not related to the cyclists that were sometimes falling like bowling pins when the huge crowd was starting to move at a green light). Getting used to some bad compromise hardly makes it good.
  - ghaff 7y ago
    There's (literally) one street in a nearby city that, during a redesign a few years back, basically embedded a bike lane in the sidewalk. It's sort of a hazard. It's moderately busy for both pedestrians and bikes and, given that this is an extremely atypical configuration, pedestrians are simply not used to looking out for bikes zipping down this bike lane (sometimes even in the direction that they're supposed to be traveling on a given side and maybe with lights on at night). I'm there often enough that I'm careful but I've still come closer to being hit a couple of times as a pedestrian than I'd like.
    - AndyMcConachie 7y ago
      The Rue de la Loi is Brussels is notorious for this. They removed a lane of traffic a few years ago and added a bike lane at the same level as the sidewalk. Incredibly dangerous to pedestrians and cyclists. https://www.google.com/maps/@50.8445626,4.3736092,3a,75y,270h,90t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s4PMJ5RMPUx3HiPI67uQNcA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192 https://www.google.com/maps/@50.8445626,4.3736092,3a,75y,270...
fit2rule 7y ago
Vienna has a few roads recently been closed off to cars, and there are more coming. I'd say the cities of Austria appear to be paying attention to the advantages of this approach, generally a little more these days ..
adrianN 7y ago
In most cities it would be enough to ban roadside parking on larger roads to get enough space for safe bike lanes. That's very different from banning cars.
dr_dshiv 7y ago
Car-focused infrastructure planning was intense in NL too -- separate bike lanes were a very late addition (after the famous "stop murdering our children" campaign against pedestrian deaths)
AndyMcConachie 7y ago
I'm a Dutchie who's also spent time in Salzburg and the percentage of people riding bikes is different. If Salzburg had to support the scale of bicycles that Utrecht does it would require a radical redesign of the roads in Salzburg. Can't speak for other Austrian cities other than Salzburg, though.

IshKebab 7y ago

Yes, I saw a video recently talking about how stupid it is to use the common term "vulnerable road users". It lumps cyclists and pedestrians together even though their needs are very different. "We'll just put all the vulnerable road users off to the side here. Cyclists don't mind if they have to cross a road at every single junction right?"

swiley 7y ago

IMO: you don’t to see that, you just need to have ever driven a car with other cars on the road to understand why vehicles going different speeds shouldn’t share the same lanes.

u801e 7y ago
Which is why drivers typically change lanes to pass. Unfortunately, most bike paths are rather narrow and preclude that possibility when you get stuck behind a slower cyclist or pedestrian.

jiofih 7y ago

The curb is a hazard to cyclists, more so than a crash with inattentive pedestrians. The majority of Dutch cycle lanes are level with the sidewalk and how often do you hear of accidents (not caused by mopeds)?

callmeal 7y ago
A crash is hazardous to inattentive pedestrians more so than a cyclist who is better protected (helmet/gear). What to do, what to do?
- jiofih 7y ago
  Cyclists in NL do not wear any protective gear.
ghaff 7y ago
It may be worth noting that there are so many bicycles in Dutch cities that, as a pedestrian, you learn very quickly that you have to be every bit as aware of them (if not more so) than you are of cars. It's mostly a pretty different situation that the occasional bike bombing down an unseparated lane on a sidewalk. It can work OK when you have wide paths that have lots of different types of users on them. It's less good when you have fairly narrow sidewalks.
Symbiote 7y ago
> The majority of Dutch cycle lanes are level with the sidewalk That doesn't fit with my memories of visiting the Netherlands, or a quick Streetview-tour of The Hague. https://www.google.com/maps/@52.0645825,4.2251355,3a,75y,172.42h,96.53t/data=!3m10!1e1!3m8!1s-fuY7lddUbRUcIBbDxJkuA!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo1.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3D-fuY7lddUbRUcIBbDxJkuA%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D78.9247%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192!9m2!1b1!2i15 https://www.google.com/maps/@52.0645825,4.2251355,3a,75y,172...
- jiofih 7y ago
  That is considered “level” - pedestrians will wander into it anyway (mostly tourists) since there is no perceivable barrier unless there is enough traffic.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

asdff 7y ago

You don't have to go as far as the netherlands. On the santa monica bike path people absentmindedly stumble into it, imagining it to be a sidewalk, and cause chaos when 80 rental bikes and 15 electric scooters begin to pile up and all attempt to merge and pass the wandering geriatric in the path at once.