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The amount of misinformation on e-cigarettes/vaping nicotine has been absolutely infuriating. I went from smoking a pack a week, which was very likely to give

The amount of misinformation on e-cigarettes/vaping nicotine has been absolutely infuriating. I went from smoking a pack a week, which was very likely to give me lung cancer at some point, to vaping nicotine. The latter is very unlikely to give one lung cancer and there have been no reported cases of lung cancer linked solely to vaping. Furthermore, the whole debacle with THC vaping juice containing a vitamin E acetate that resulted in several deaths was reported in an absolutely disgusting manner. THC and vitamin E acetate were rarely mentioned in these reports. It was usually reported as "vaping mysteriously causing deaths" and even associated with companies like Juul who don't deal with THC at all. The irony that we've gone from "Reefer Madness" to "Nicotine Vaping Madness" when black market THC pods were straight up killing people is so unfortunate. Even NPR reported incredibly questionably on this. Full disclosure - I don't think kids should be vaping or smoking, but there is no proof that vaping nicotine causes anywhere near as much damage as smoking cigarettes. I also have no problem with smoking marijuana in moderation (and perhaps less so for developing minds), but won't be touching any THC vape pods until it's clear that no one is using Vitamin E acetate in their juice.

wnevets 7y ago
>The amount of misinformation on e-cigarettes/vaping nicotine has been absolutely infuriating. I wonder if tobacco companies are behind most of the misinformation about vaping. While I'm sure most if not all of them have e-cigarette product lines, the margins have to be terrible compared actual cigarettes. Folks into vaping aren't buying their nicotine and flavors from these companies.
- ShamelessC 7y ago
  I've considered this. There's also a huge existing industry and lobbyists whose existence depend solely on the notion that smoking is bad. If everyone stops smoking and starts vaping, they've got nothing to do anymore, no one to get donations or funding from. They're incentivized to create a new boogyman to fight against (e-cigarettes) in order to remain relevant. I'm thinking of organizations like Truth, D.A.R.E., that sort of thing. That's all a bit conspiratorial though and I have no evidence to support it.
- mrmrcoleman 7y ago
  Big tobacco are investing heavily, so I doubt it: https://www.investopedia.com/news/which-company-behind-popular-ecigarette-juul/ https://www.investopedia.com/news/which-company-behind-popul...
  - wnevets 7y ago
    Like I mentioned in my post I dont doubt they have skin in the e-cig game. However the music industry is also heavily invested in online streaming but I'm sure they would all love to go to the days of $20 CDs.
    - samdunham 7y ago
      Exactly. The big tobacco companies, while playing in the e-cig space, would MUCH rather see it go away. They completely own the tobacco market. They have a never ending stream of competitors in the e-cig space.
- dr_dshiv 7y ago
  Profit margins are terrible compared to regular cigarettes. A pack can be manufactured for $0.06. You have a built in customer base with huge profit margins and massive brand loyalty. While tobacco bought into ecigs, they can't keep up with tech. As soon as smoking is technology, then the brands can be disrupted. Better to kill off vaping.
  - stan_rogers 7y ago
    The closed systems that "Big Tobacco" are into - the stuff that sells at corner stores and gas stations, with prefilled pods/cartomizers - is incredibly high-profit. I'd look at the tobacco industry if the push was towards closed systems, but they seem to be largely singled out as the enemy. There are two better places to look: the pharma industry and their collection of minimally-successful smoking cessation products; and governments that are looking at enormous revenue loss, especially those that have already spent funds from the Master Settlement Agreement. (It may be worth noting, as well, that the loudest anti-smoking orgs are also getting their funding from the MSA. Don't get me wrong, I'd like to see combustible tobacco disappear, but there are people of the like of Stanton Glantz who've rather enjoyed the funding, and who have demonstrably lied in their opposition to vaping.)
whoisjuan 7y ago
Also, wasn't the THC illness related to a specific type of vape pen sold in the dark market? They called them "Dank Vapes" and I believe they were being promoted in some sketchy Instagram accounts. Some more information here: https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2019/09/27/765151187/many-vaping-illnesses-linked-to-black-market-dank-vapes-or-other-thc-products https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2019/09/27/7651511...
- ShamelessC 7y ago
  I'm not aware of the specifics but my general understanding is that there were at least a few black market sellers involved with that debacle. Basically unqualified "street chemists" saying "yo, if we add some Vitamin E to this solution it'll be fire!" Sounds like these "Dank Vapes" were one of the bigger offenders though.
- mjayhn 7y ago
  Basically what was (and still is) happening is people are buying wholesale packaging (carts and boxes) off of Ebay and one of those Aliexpress-like Chinese sites (I can't remember the name right now) and filling the carts with some low end THC (usually pesticide filled) and then a bunch of fillers (vitamin e, etc) and selling them for $30-60 as $X brand. They'll usually tell you they got them from CO or whatever is near by when in reality they either have no idea where they originated or they're making them at home with god knows what. They get them in bulk for stupid cheap, often with various names like Dank Vapes (which actually is a real company but IIRC they passed someones pesticide lab test but were still labeled low quality) or whatever else you can imagine, there's a /r/fakecartridges subreddit. Edit: I should mention, Dank Vapes is one of the most common counterfeit brands to buy from these wholesalers I mentioned. That's an immediate red flag on a cart. So.. at this point I just wouldn't trust any carts unless you're buying them from a REGULATED shop and they're a well known brand or making them yourself. I had no idea CA/CO and I assume WA allowed unregulated/unlicensed stores or items to be sold but that's also a thing. They'll can contain stuff like pg (propylene glycol), k2, pesticides, vitamin-e which damages your lungs, etc and who knows what else, their goal is usually to cut it down to a smooth moving and clear gold THC oil. I've seen some of these go through basically an arms race where dealers want you to keep coming back so they spike them with stuff that gets you more "high" - k2, etc. You can basically drive through any major downtown and see the effects of people on k2 "spice" which is a generic term now because the original ingredient, JWH-018 was banned in the USA a few years ago so now even "k2" is some umbrella term for just random chemicals you're inhaling to get tossed. Lots of addicts are using this stuff and when you see one passed out and covered in puke while going to lunch downtown often they've smoked some random "k2" variant. It used to be a somewhat decent chemical for people who didn't want to pop drug tests (Military, etc), it was literally a synthetic cannabinoid. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JWH-018 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JWH-018 People have been flocking to use carts instead of flower because they're just super easy to deal with. You can smoke them just about anywhere, bars, bathrooms, etc and most people wouldn't even notice. Hopefully this isn't a scary level of detail. Anyone who is doing this stuff already knows the process, hopefully this educates people who are STILL buying these random cartridges and they stop buying them. Do NOT buy what you don't know. edit: There are people who make legit carts at home, I don't want to sound like nobody does that.
chongli 7y ago
The reason there was an uproar is that there's been a huge surge in vaping by kids. People have been working tirelessly, for decades, to lower the stats on smoking among teens and when they see vaping spread through high schools like wildfire you can see why they'd be pissed off.
- hoorayimhelping 7y ago
  >The reason there was an uproar is that there's been a huge surge in vaping by kids... vaping spread through high schools like wildfire. The article directly contradicts this statement and says it's a myth (number 5). >Our latest report found no evidence so far to support the concern that e-cigarettes are a route into smoking among young people. UK surveys show that young people are experimenting with e-cigarettes, but regular use is rare and confined almost entirely to those who already smoke. Meanwhile, smoking rates among young people in the UK continue to decline.
  - slg 7y ago
    The article is denying that e-cig leads to traditional smoking. That isn't the same as e-cig usage going up among young people which is virtually undeniable. That also means the comparisons of e-cig being safer than cigarettes is less important for this group since they were unlikely to smoke without the existence of e-cigarettes.
    - ShamelessC 7y ago
      I don't know what the facts are regarding whether e-cigarettes are some kind of "gateway" to real ones. It doesn't seem realistic to me but it's the kind of thing that should be studied properly before jumping to conclusions. Having said that, the concept does seem very strange to me as someone who used to smoke and switched to vaping because it's better in every way. It tastes better (with so much more variety in flavors), it's not as harsh on your throat and it doesn't leave an embarrassing odor on your body that non-smokers will judge you for. The only reasonable conclusion I personally could come to is that people are more likely to switch from smoking to vaping and very rarely the other way around. Again, this isn't scientific. Also, kids shouldn't vape or smoke. Period. _But_, if they do vape and get addicted to nicotine at a young age, I personally find it preposterous that they would switch to cigarettes for their nicotine in large numbers.
monocasa 7y ago
To be fair, Juul is a spinoff of one of the largest marijuana vape companies (Pax), so it's not a total non sequitur.
clumsysmurf 7y ago
Without looking, I often see negative findings about vaping. In the past few weeks alone we have: "Vaping changes oral microbiome, increasing risk for infection" https://medicalxpress.com/news/2020-02-vaping-oral-microbiome-infection.html https://medicalxpress.com/news/2020-02-vaping-oral-microbiom... "Vapers show chemical changes in their genome linked to cancer" https://medicalxpress.com/news/2020-02-vapers-chemical-genome-linked-cancer.html https://medicalxpress.com/news/2020-02-vapers-chemical-genom...
Engineering-MD 7y ago
To be fair, while I agree that vaping is with current evidence probably better than smoking, given the relative novelty of vaping and lag in cancer I think we won’t know if there is a risk of lung cancer with any certainty for a decade or more (unless anyone can point out some evidence otherwise which I’d be grateful for).

wnevets 7y ago

>The amount of misinformation on e-cigarettes/vaping nicotine has been absolutely infuriating. I wonder if tobacco companies are behind most of the misinformation about vaping. While I'm sure most if not all of them have e-cigarette product lines, the margins have to be terrible compared actual cigarettes. Folks into vaping aren't buying their nicotine and flavors from these companies.

ShamelessC 7y ago
I've considered this. There's also a huge existing industry and lobbyists whose existence depend solely on the notion that smoking is bad. If everyone stops smoking and starts vaping, they've got nothing to do anymore, no one to get donations or funding from. They're incentivized to create a new boogyman to fight against (e-cigarettes) in order to remain relevant. I'm thinking of organizations like Truth, D.A.R.E., that sort of thing. That's all a bit conspiratorial though and I have no evidence to support it.
mrmrcoleman 7y ago
Big tobacco are investing heavily, so I doubt it: https://www.investopedia.com/news/which-company-behind-popular-ecigarette-juul/ https://www.investopedia.com/news/which-company-behind-popul...
- wnevets 7y ago
  Like I mentioned in my post I dont doubt they have skin in the e-cig game. However the music industry is also heavily invested in online streaming but I'm sure they would all love to go to the days of $20 CDs.
  - samdunham 7y ago
    Exactly. The big tobacco companies, while playing in the e-cig space, would MUCH rather see it go away. They completely own the tobacco market. They have a never ending stream of competitors in the e-cig space.
dr_dshiv 7y ago
Profit margins are terrible compared to regular cigarettes. A pack can be manufactured for $0.06. You have a built in customer base with huge profit margins and massive brand loyalty. While tobacco bought into ecigs, they can't keep up with tech. As soon as smoking is technology, then the brands can be disrupted. Better to kill off vaping.
- stan_rogers 7y ago
  The closed systems that "Big Tobacco" are into - the stuff that sells at corner stores and gas stations, with prefilled pods/cartomizers - is incredibly high-profit. I'd look at the tobacco industry if the push was towards closed systems, but they seem to be largely singled out as the enemy. There are two better places to look: the pharma industry and their collection of minimally-successful smoking cessation products; and governments that are looking at enormous revenue loss, especially those that have already spent funds from the Master Settlement Agreement. (It may be worth noting, as well, that the loudest anti-smoking orgs are also getting their funding from the MSA. Don't get me wrong, I'd like to see combustible tobacco disappear, but there are people of the like of Stanton Glantz who've rather enjoyed the funding, and who have demonstrably lied in their opposition to vaping.)

whoisjuan 7y ago

Also, wasn't the THC illness related to a specific type of vape pen sold in the dark market? They called them "Dank Vapes" and I believe they were being promoted in some sketchy Instagram accounts. Some more information here: https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2019/09/27/765151187/many-vaping-illnesses-linked-to-black-market-dank-vapes-or-other-thc-products https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2019/09/27/7651511...

ShamelessC 7y ago
I'm not aware of the specifics but my general understanding is that there were at least a few black market sellers involved with that debacle. Basically unqualified "street chemists" saying "yo, if we add some Vitamin E to this solution it'll be fire!" Sounds like these "Dank Vapes" were one of the bigger offenders though.
mjayhn 7y ago
Basically what was (and still is) happening is people are buying wholesale packaging (carts and boxes) off of Ebay and one of those Aliexpress-like Chinese sites (I can't remember the name right now) and filling the carts with some low end THC (usually pesticide filled) and then a bunch of fillers (vitamin e, etc) and selling them for $30-60 as $X brand. They'll usually tell you they got them from CO or whatever is near by when in reality they either have no idea where they originated or they're making them at home with god knows what. They get them in bulk for stupid cheap, often with various names like Dank Vapes (which actually is a real company but IIRC they passed someones pesticide lab test but were still labeled low quality) or whatever else you can imagine, there's a /r/fakecartridges subreddit. Edit: I should mention, Dank Vapes is one of the most common counterfeit brands to buy from these wholesalers I mentioned. That's an immediate red flag on a cart. So.. at this point I just wouldn't trust any carts unless you're buying them from a REGULATED shop and they're a well known brand or making them yourself. I had no idea CA/CO and I assume WA allowed unregulated/unlicensed stores or items to be sold but that's also a thing. They'll can contain stuff like pg (propylene glycol), k2, pesticides, vitamin-e which damages your lungs, etc and who knows what else, their goal is usually to cut it down to a smooth moving and clear gold THC oil. I've seen some of these go through basically an arms race where dealers want you to keep coming back so they spike them with stuff that gets you more "high" - k2, etc. You can basically drive through any major downtown and see the effects of people on k2 "spice" which is a generic term now because the original ingredient, JWH-018 was banned in the USA a few years ago so now even "k2" is some umbrella term for just random chemicals you're inhaling to get tossed. Lots of addicts are using this stuff and when you see one passed out and covered in puke while going to lunch downtown often they've smoked some random "k2" variant. It used to be a somewhat decent chemical for people who didn't want to pop drug tests (Military, etc), it was literally a synthetic cannabinoid. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JWH-018 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JWH-018 People have been flocking to use carts instead of flower because they're just super easy to deal with. You can smoke them just about anywhere, bars, bathrooms, etc and most people wouldn't even notice. Hopefully this isn't a scary level of detail. Anyone who is doing this stuff already knows the process, hopefully this educates people who are STILL buying these random cartridges and they stop buying them. Do NOT buy what you don't know. edit: There are people who make legit carts at home, I don't want to sound like nobody does that.

chongli 7y ago

The reason there was an uproar is that there's been a huge surge in vaping by kids. People have been working tirelessly, for decades, to lower the stats on smoking among teens and when they see vaping spread through high schools like wildfire you can see why they'd be pissed off.

hoorayimhelping 7y ago
>The reason there was an uproar is that there's been a huge surge in vaping by kids... vaping spread through high schools like wildfire. The article directly contradicts this statement and says it's a myth (number 5). >Our latest report found no evidence so far to support the concern that e-cigarettes are a route into smoking among young people. UK surveys show that young people are experimenting with e-cigarettes, but regular use is rare and confined almost entirely to those who already smoke. Meanwhile, smoking rates among young people in the UK continue to decline.
- slg 7y ago
  The article is denying that e-cig leads to traditional smoking. That isn't the same as e-cig usage going up among young people which is virtually undeniable. That also means the comparisons of e-cig being safer than cigarettes is less important for this group since they were unlikely to smoke without the existence of e-cigarettes.
  - ShamelessC 7y ago
    I don't know what the facts are regarding whether e-cigarettes are some kind of "gateway" to real ones. It doesn't seem realistic to me but it's the kind of thing that should be studied properly before jumping to conclusions. Having said that, the concept does seem very strange to me as someone who used to smoke and switched to vaping because it's better in every way. It tastes better (with so much more variety in flavors), it's not as harsh on your throat and it doesn't leave an embarrassing odor on your body that non-smokers will judge you for. The only reasonable conclusion I personally could come to is that people are more likely to switch from smoking to vaping and very rarely the other way around. Again, this isn't scientific. Also, kids shouldn't vape or smoke. Period. _But_, if they do vape and get addicted to nicotine at a young age, I personally find it preposterous that they would switch to cigarettes for their nicotine in large numbers.

monocasa 7y ago

To be fair, Juul is a spinoff of one of the largest marijuana vape companies (Pax), so it's not a total non sequitur.

clumsysmurf 7y ago

Without looking, I often see negative findings about vaping. In the past few weeks alone we have: "Vaping changes oral microbiome, increasing risk for infection" https://medicalxpress.com/news/2020-02-vaping-oral-microbiome-infection.html https://medicalxpress.com/news/2020-02-vaping-oral-microbiom... "Vapers show chemical changes in their genome linked to cancer" https://medicalxpress.com/news/2020-02-vapers-chemical-genome-linked-cancer.html https://medicalxpress.com/news/2020-02-vapers-chemical-genom...

Engineering-MD 7y ago

To be fair, while I agree that vaping is with current evidence probably better than smoking, given the relative novelty of vaping and lag in cancer I think we won’t know if there is a risk of lung cancer with any certainty for a decade or more (unless anyone can point out some evidence otherwise which I’d be grateful for).