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If Germany didn't invade then the USSR would attack first (and WW2 would be over sooner, probably with larger part of Europe under Soviet control). Both powers

by vl 7y ago

If Germany didn't invade then the USSR would attack first (and WW2 would be over sooner, probably with larger part of Europe under Soviet control). Both powers had attack plans, Germans executed theirs sooner. Some historians claim that Germans got ahead if Soviet attack just by few weeks.

jandrese 7y ago
There's also the point that Germany absolutely needed the oil fields to keep their war machine running. I'm skeptical on the USSR executing on a plan to attack Germany only two weeks later given how disorganized they were in the face of the German attack. The Russian army isn't something you can move across the country in a couple of weeks.
- bzbarsky 7y ago
  The argument as I've seen it presented was that a large part of the army was already moved up close to the border and in attack positions, and not set up for defensive operations. Which is why, the argument goes, there were so many soldiers to surround and cut off. I'm not endorsing the argument, note; I haven't looked into this enough to have anything resembling a useful opinion.
  - gdy 7y ago
    "I haven't looked into this enough" And yet you rushed to disseminate it.
    - squiggleblaz 7y ago
      You have to rush to disseminate it. If you don't, the topic drops off the front page and eventually it gets locked. Hacker News has many pros, but it doesn't exactly facilitate slow, careful and thorough discussion. (Old fashioned mailing lists might've I guess, but I'm not aware of any contemporary platforms that do.)
    - bzbarsky 7y ago
      No, I commented why the counterargument given is not actually a counterargument against the thing it claims to be arguing about.
      - gdy 7y ago
        Fair enough
  - vl 7y ago
    This is absolutely funny how balanced unopinionated comment providing additional information gets downvoted. If this is not monoculture then I don’t know what is.
anticodon 7y ago
There's exactly zero evidence of such plans. It's a new western attempt to rewrite history again and make USSR even more "evil". Make people repeat the same lie 10,000 times and they'll start believing it.
- QuesnayJr 7y ago
  I don't think a version of history where the USSR attacks Nazi Germany unprovoked is one that makes the USSR look "evil".
- asdkjh345 7y ago
  There is plenty of evidence, and it is not new or western. This claim was made in the 1980s, by Soviet defectors. https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/700262.Ice_Breaker https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/700262.Ice_Breaker
  - anticodon 7y ago
    Ah, Suvorov. Even bigger liar than Solzhenitsyn.
    - asdkjh345 7y ago
      Possibly, although as I mentioned he's not alone in his claims, he does have a fair bit of evidence, and he is most certainly not western nor is his claim new.
gdy 7y ago
"the USSR would attack first" [Citation needed]
- vl 7y ago
  Use your favorite search engine and type “evidence that USSR was going to attack Germany”.
  - gdy 7y ago
    And I'll find Suvorov's books. Not the kind of source I'm waiting for.

by vl 7y ago

jandrese 7y ago

There's also the point that Germany absolutely needed the oil fields to keep their war machine running. I'm skeptical on the USSR executing on a plan to attack Germany only two weeks later given how disorganized they were in the face of the German attack. The Russian army isn't something you can move across the country in a couple of weeks.

bzbarsky 7y ago
The argument as I've seen it presented was that a large part of the army was already moved up close to the border and in attack positions, and not set up for defensive operations. Which is why, the argument goes, there were so many soldiers to surround and cut off. I'm not endorsing the argument, note; I haven't looked into this enough to have anything resembling a useful opinion.
- gdy 7y ago
  "I haven't looked into this enough" And yet you rushed to disseminate it.
  - squiggleblaz 7y ago
    You have to rush to disseminate it. If you don't, the topic drops off the front page and eventually it gets locked. Hacker News has many pros, but it doesn't exactly facilitate slow, careful and thorough discussion. (Old fashioned mailing lists might've I guess, but I'm not aware of any contemporary platforms that do.)
  - bzbarsky 7y ago
    No, I commented why the counterargument given is not actually a counterargument against the thing it claims to be arguing about.
    - gdy 7y ago
      Fair enough
- vl 7y ago
  This is absolutely funny how balanced unopinionated comment providing additional information gets downvoted. If this is not monoculture then I don’t know what is.

anticodon 7y ago

There's exactly zero evidence of such plans. It's a new western attempt to rewrite history again and make USSR even more "evil". Make people repeat the same lie 10,000 times and they'll start believing it.

QuesnayJr 7y ago
I don't think a version of history where the USSR attacks Nazi Germany unprovoked is one that makes the USSR look "evil".
asdkjh345 7y ago
There is plenty of evidence, and it is not new or western. This claim was made in the 1980s, by Soviet defectors. https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/700262.Ice_Breaker https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/700262.Ice_Breaker
- anticodon 7y ago
  Ah, Suvorov. Even bigger liar than Solzhenitsyn.
  - asdkjh345 7y ago
    Possibly, although as I mentioned he's not alone in his claims, he does have a fair bit of evidence, and he is most certainly not western nor is his claim new.

gdy 7y ago

"the USSR would attack first" [Citation needed]

vl 7y ago
Use your favorite search engine and type “evidence that USSR was going to attack Germany”.
- gdy 7y ago
  And I'll find Suvorov's books. Not the kind of source I'm waiting for.