9 ms·

I'm supprised they have not developed their own or at least, bankrolled the development of one via grants. Though it would be good if there was an open source

by Zenst 7y ago

I'm supprised they have not developed their own or at least, bankrolled the development of one via grants. Though it would be good if there was an open source communications platform that would allow the public to engage with politicians in a formal and constructive way. Alas, so much disparity in solutions that it often irks me. https://ec.europa.eu/digital-single-market/en/projects https://ec.europa.eu/digital-single-market/en/projects Be great if the interface was better for that site, though google didn't find anything of note.

fmajid 7y ago
This is for communications to outsiders, who can't be expected to have an EU-internal app installed on their devices. Signal is reasonably widespread, and probably the best such messaging platform out there, although it has serious issues like the requirement for a phone number.
- heartbeats 7y ago
  So why couldn't the EU fund the development of a Signal fork that doesn't need phone numbers?
  - 317070 7y ago
    We had 14 standards. With glorious government funding we make one standard to replace them all. We will have 15 standards. Forking a piece of software whose market moat is 100% network effects is not easy.
  - cpach 7y ago
    In theory, they could. But IMHO it would not be wise to overestimate the EU’s competence when it comes to purchasing software projects and writing a sane requirement specification. As a citizen within EU I would rather see them donate money to the Signal Technology Foundation instead. OTOH that could be controversial, so perhaps it would be better if citizens and companies would donate directly instead.
    - imtringued 7y ago
      Perhaps they could establish a satellite office in the EU with developers that are officially [0] hired by the EU but work for Signal? That way there could be a purely EU owned fork of Signal. [0] Signal conducts the hiring and interviews, EU pays the salary
  - growse 7y ago
    Why would anyone trust a fork of Signal?
  - Anderkent 7y ago
    Why wouldn't EU bureaucrats want to use their phone numbers as the identity?
  - IAmEveryone 7y ago
    The EU's budget is (was) just 4% of the US' budget. That's still 148 billion Euro, but the comparison might show why the EU isn't quite as keen to "invest in <x>" as people sometimes seem to think. (Although one might consider these suggestions a reflection of the EU's connection with dreaming big in people's minds) The EU's structure is also a bit different than that of nation states, with cabinet members and parliament rather limited in their ability to make spending decisions. Anything serious needs approval by the council, i. e. the heads of state. And just now is probably a bad time for new expenditures, as Brexit will severely cut into revenue.
- pergadad 7y ago
  I've read it requires a phone number so that it does not need to collect or store any (other) data on users.
  - Avamander 7y ago
    It also very shadily holds that number hostage, meaning you are forced to wait seven days after uninstalling the app in order to be able to unregister your number from signal. If you don't you'll just not get messages from people on Signal. My opinion of them is quite low thanks to the iMessage-tier bullshit.
    - tapoxi 7y ago
      This certainly isn't the case with any version I've used. It's just Settings -> Delete Account, and its a large, red, very visible button.
      - Avamander 7y ago
        This certainly is the case when you don't have the app any more.
deugtniet 7y ago
France developed their own matrix protocol based network called tchap. Great idea for a nation that wants to stay independent in an increasingly american/chinese tech dependent world.
- Zenst 7y ago
  Ah yes, I'd forgotten about that - https://medium.com/@fs0c131y/tchap-the-super-not-secure-app-of-the-french-government-84b31517d144 https://medium.com/@fs0c131y/tchap-the-super-not-secure-app-...
  - maxmouchet 7y ago
    To be fair, the vulnerability was fixed quickly. And in the end it improved the security of Matrix and the governement application. I prefer this to a closed-source application developed internally, without communication on security vulnerabilities.
    - Zenst 7y ago
      Yes, does cover that in the link and from my perspective - ruddy good response time upon that and well handled. I can think of many comparable situations in other countries (some EU ones as well) in which the person finding the issue would of very easily been locked up.
      - Arathorn 7y ago
        To be clear, the vulnerability was with the specific server configuration for the French Matrix deployment (authing people based on email domain), and not a flaw in Matrix itself. We're not aware of anyone else running in that config. https://matrix.org/blog/2019/04/18/security-update-sydent-1-0-2 https://matrix.org/blog/2019/04/18/security-update-sydent-1-... had the details. The actual bug was thanks to a long-standing bug in python's standard email.utils library, which finally got fixed: https://bugs.python.org/issue34155 https://bugs.python.org/issue34155, combined with insufficiently-defensive coding and testing on my side. (I wrote the auth code in question).
xmdx 7y ago
Why reinvent the wheel? Signal does the job, doesn't store data, not even metadata, and can be used immediately.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- Zenst 7y ago
  It's a wheel that they do not have any control over, from source, hosting and distribution.
  - proactivesvcs 7y ago
    But for an entity like the EU they could have complete control over the lot, with relative ease. The client, server and protocol are all open.
    - simias 7y ago
      Is the server really open? I was under the impression that it was not. That's my only issue with Signal honestly, you can't rehost/fork easily if you're unhappy with the way the project is going.
      - Forbo 7y ago
        https://github.com/signalapp/Signal-Server https://github.com/signalapp/Signal-Server
      - tialaramex 7y ago
        Forking Signal isn't practical for the same reason Forking the UN wouldn't be practical. Network effect. But the code is right there for you to read it and re-use it, you just won't get far building your own network with one user and demanding everybody else switch over.
- dependenttypes 7y ago
  > doesn't store data, not even metadata Isn't that just a promise? Also, even then, it is based on your contacts, which are seen by google.
tgsovlerkhgsel 7y ago
While I'm _surprised_ that they didn't choose that approach, I'm glad they decided to do something sensible instead. Developing a custom app would mean throwing tax money into a black hole, generating an inferior product that nobody would use (among other things due to the complete lack of network effect). Supporting an existing, good open-source product (and possibly spending grant money on _that_) makes a lot more sense, and is a practical solution.

by Zenst 7y ago

fmajid 7y ago

This is for communications to outsiders, who can't be expected to have an EU-internal app installed on their devices. Signal is reasonably widespread, and probably the best such messaging platform out there, although it has serious issues like the requirement for a phone number.

heartbeats 7y ago
So why couldn't the EU fund the development of a Signal fork that doesn't need phone numbers?
- 317070 7y ago
  We had 14 standards. With glorious government funding we make one standard to replace them all. We will have 15 standards. Forking a piece of software whose market moat is 100% network effects is not easy.
- cpach 7y ago
  In theory, they could. But IMHO it would not be wise to overestimate the EU’s competence when it comes to purchasing software projects and writing a sane requirement specification. As a citizen within EU I would rather see them donate money to the Signal Technology Foundation instead. OTOH that could be controversial, so perhaps it would be better if citizens and companies would donate directly instead.
  - imtringued 7y ago
    Perhaps they could establish a satellite office in the EU with developers that are officially [0] hired by the EU but work for Signal? That way there could be a purely EU owned fork of Signal. [0] Signal conducts the hiring and interviews, EU pays the salary
- growse 7y ago
  Why would anyone trust a fork of Signal?
- Anderkent 7y ago
  Why wouldn't EU bureaucrats want to use their phone numbers as the identity?
- IAmEveryone 7y ago
  The EU's budget is (was) just 4% of the US' budget. That's still 148 billion Euro, but the comparison might show why the EU isn't quite as keen to "invest in <x>" as people sometimes seem to think. (Although one might consider these suggestions a reflection of the EU's connection with dreaming big in people's minds) The EU's structure is also a bit different than that of nation states, with cabinet members and parliament rather limited in their ability to make spending decisions. Anything serious needs approval by the council, i. e. the heads of state. And just now is probably a bad time for new expenditures, as Brexit will severely cut into revenue.
pergadad 7y ago
I've read it requires a phone number so that it does not need to collect or store any (other) data on users.
- Avamander 7y ago
  It also very shadily holds that number hostage, meaning you are forced to wait seven days after uninstalling the app in order to be able to unregister your number from signal. If you don't you'll just not get messages from people on Signal. My opinion of them is quite low thanks to the iMessage-tier bullshit.
  - tapoxi 7y ago
    This certainly isn't the case with any version I've used. It's just Settings -> Delete Account, and its a large, red, very visible button.
    - Avamander 7y ago
      This certainly is the case when you don't have the app any more.

deugtniet 7y ago

France developed their own matrix protocol based network called tchap. Great idea for a nation that wants to stay independent in an increasingly american/chinese tech dependent world.

Zenst 7y ago
Ah yes, I'd forgotten about that - https://medium.com/@fs0c131y/tchap-the-super-not-secure-app-of-the-french-government-84b31517d144 https://medium.com/@fs0c131y/tchap-the-super-not-secure-app-...
- maxmouchet 7y ago
  To be fair, the vulnerability was fixed quickly. And in the end it improved the security of Matrix and the governement application. I prefer this to a closed-source application developed internally, without communication on security vulnerabilities.
  - Zenst 7y ago
    Yes, does cover that in the link and from my perspective - ruddy good response time upon that and well handled. I can think of many comparable situations in other countries (some EU ones as well) in which the person finding the issue would of very easily been locked up.
    - Arathorn 7y ago
      To be clear, the vulnerability was with the specific server configuration for the French Matrix deployment (authing people based on email domain), and not a flaw in Matrix itself. We're not aware of anyone else running in that config. https://matrix.org/blog/2019/04/18/security-update-sydent-1-0-2 https://matrix.org/blog/2019/04/18/security-update-sydent-1-... had the details. The actual bug was thanks to a long-standing bug in python's standard email.utils library, which finally got fixed: https://bugs.python.org/issue34155 https://bugs.python.org/issue34155, combined with insufficiently-defensive coding and testing on my side. (I wrote the auth code in question).

xmdx 7y ago

Why reinvent the wheel? Signal does the job, doesn't store data, not even metadata, and can be used immediately.

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
Zenst 7y ago
It's a wheel that they do not have any control over, from source, hosting and distribution.
- proactivesvcs 7y ago
  But for an entity like the EU they could have complete control over the lot, with relative ease. The client, server and protocol are all open.
  - simias 7y ago
    Is the server really open? I was under the impression that it was not. That's my only issue with Signal honestly, you can't rehost/fork easily if you're unhappy with the way the project is going.
    - Forbo 7y ago
      https://github.com/signalapp/Signal-Server https://github.com/signalapp/Signal-Server
    - tialaramex 7y ago
      Forking Signal isn't practical for the same reason Forking the UN wouldn't be practical. Network effect. But the code is right there for you to read it and re-use it, you just won't get far building your own network with one user and demanding everybody else switch over.
dependenttypes 7y ago
> doesn't store data, not even metadata Isn't that just a promise? Also, even then, it is based on your contacts, which are seen by google.

tgsovlerkhgsel 7y ago

While I'm _surprised_ that they didn't choose that approach, I'm glad they decided to do something sensible instead. Developing a custom app would mean throwing tax money into a black hole, generating an inferior product that nobody would use (among other things due to the complete lack of network effect). Supporting an existing, good open-source product (and possibly spending grant money on _that_) makes a lot more sense, and is a practical solution.