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I’ve always thought that this is going to hit illegal immigrants hardest. Rents on the low end are going to rise by $1000/month, and those without the subsidy

by jmpman 7y ago

I’ve always thought that this is going to hit illegal immigrants hardest. Rents on the low end are going to rise by $1000/month, and those without the subsidy aren’t going to be able to compete. Or California could provide $1000/month to illegal immigrants, but I doubt that would pass even in California.

ethanbond 7y ago
Great that landlords will ultimately get this as a windfall and normal people will see no improvement in lifestyle eh?
adolph 7y ago
Well, the bill just says resident so maybe Oregonians can take a cash vacation. http://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billCompareClient.xhtml?bill_id=201920200AB2712&showamends=false http://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billCompareClient.xh...
DougN7 7y ago
It’s like nobody understands supply and demand
- daenz 7y ago
  Everyday people honestly don't understand why prices are what they are. I've had a number of conversations with people and they truly believe that prices are arbitrarily set based on how much owners want to screw customers over. It's easier to think about that way.
  - speedplane 7y ago
    > Everyday people honestly don't understand why prices are what they are. I've had a number of conversations with people and they truly believe that prices are arbitrarily set based on how much owners want to screw customers over. Generally, a company will charge the highest price they can get away with, irrespective of the cost it took to produce the good or service. Prices only approach the cost of production when there is strong competition among industry players. Basic tactics like branding, consolidation, and lack of transparency in an industry help subvert competition.
    - imtringued 7y ago
      >Generally, a company will charge the highest price they can get away with, irrespective of the cost it took to produce the good or service. That's not what those "everyday" people think. They think the company can increase the prices beyond the breaking point arbitrarily and always get away with it. That same logic is then used to prevent new competitors from entering because they charge above market rate during their first few years. For some reason they never think about what happens once the suppliers are begging for customers because there is too much competition.
- speedplane 7y ago
  > It’s like nobody understands supply and demand Folks that use supply and demand principles to argue against UBI don't seem to understand themselves. If everyone is given $1,000/mo, it does not necessarily follow that living costs will also increase by $1000/mo. For that to happen, the additional $1000/mo would need to actually increase everyone's demand for services, which is generally not the case. Having more money generally does not make you want something more, it just makes it easier to afford it. If more people can afford something and start purchasing it in greater numbers, then yes, the price will increase, but they are also getting something the thing of value in return. Put another way, giving everyone $1000 will likely increase prices, but the increased prices will be less than $1000.
  - erik_seaberg 7y ago
    Supply and demand break down where increasing supply is practically illegal. As long as there's a severe shortage of housing, landlords can demand as much as the top nth percentile of renters are able to pay, because there is no competing landlord who will take a lower price. If this somehow doesn't drain California dry, it'll be interesting if this enables lots of frustrated marginally-employed people to move to areas with vacant housing (and no jobs, but so what?)
cheez 7y ago
The advantage of $1000 unconditional is that they can move to a city with a lower cost of living. And who cares about illegal immigrants in this regard... They're there illegally
- foogazi 7y ago
  > The advantage of $1000 unconditional is that they can move to a city with a lower cost of living. Only if it’s still in California If loving to LCOL is beneficial why can’t they do that now?
  - cheez 7y ago
    Presumably they have no money
dragonwriter 7y ago
> I’ve always thought that this is going to hit illegal immigrants hardest. That might be an argument if it were a UBI, but this is not a UBI, and it is just going to hit the poor in general the hardest. > Rents on the low end are going to rise by $1000/month Even if they would with an actual UBI (which is a whole different debate), they won't with this plan [0], which (bizarrely, as its author calls it a UBI) leaves out essentially the entirety of the poor plus the transitionally unemployed (that is, it leaves out anyone receiving benefits under Medi-Cal, CalWORKS, CalFresh, or, weirdly, Unemployment Insurance.) Medi-Cal alone covers roughly the poorest 1/4 of Californians (10.8 million of 39.6 million in 2018.) Unemployment Insurance is the weirdest exclusion, because it makes the bite of transitional unemployment deeper by $1,000/mo. Why anyone thinks that's even a remotely sane idea is beyond me. Funded with a VAT (which has essentially the same regressive characteristics as sales tax) this is basically the opposite of a UBI, its an upward redistribution from the poor and unemployed to the comfortable and employed. The problem is not that it will drive low-end housing prices up, its that both the VAT and the not-all-universal Basic Income pieces will drive up prices on goods across the board (but not, except weakly indirectly, low-income housing.) http://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billTextClient.xhtml?bill_id=201920200AB2712 http://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billTextClient.xhtml...

by jmpman 7y ago

ethanbond 7y ago

Great that landlords will ultimately get this as a windfall and normal people will see no improvement in lifestyle eh?

adolph 7y ago

Well, the bill just says resident so maybe Oregonians can take a cash vacation. http://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billCompareClient.xhtml?bill_id=201920200AB2712&showamends=false http://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billCompareClient.xh...

DougN7 7y ago

It’s like nobody understands supply and demand

daenz 7y ago
Everyday people honestly don't understand why prices are what they are. I've had a number of conversations with people and they truly believe that prices are arbitrarily set based on how much owners want to screw customers over. It's easier to think about that way.
- speedplane 7y ago
  > Everyday people honestly don't understand why prices are what they are. I've had a number of conversations with people and they truly believe that prices are arbitrarily set based on how much owners want to screw customers over. Generally, a company will charge the highest price they can get away with, irrespective of the cost it took to produce the good or service. Prices only approach the cost of production when there is strong competition among industry players. Basic tactics like branding, consolidation, and lack of transparency in an industry help subvert competition.
  - imtringued 7y ago
    >Generally, a company will charge the highest price they can get away with, irrespective of the cost it took to produce the good or service. That's not what those "everyday" people think. They think the company can increase the prices beyond the breaking point arbitrarily and always get away with it. That same logic is then used to prevent new competitors from entering because they charge above market rate during their first few years. For some reason they never think about what happens once the suppliers are begging for customers because there is too much competition.
speedplane 7y ago
> It’s like nobody understands supply and demand Folks that use supply and demand principles to argue against UBI don't seem to understand themselves. If everyone is given $1,000/mo, it does not necessarily follow that living costs will also increase by $1000/mo. For that to happen, the additional $1000/mo would need to actually increase everyone's demand for services, which is generally not the case. Having more money generally does not make you want something more, it just makes it easier to afford it. If more people can afford something and start purchasing it in greater numbers, then yes, the price will increase, but they are also getting something the thing of value in return. Put another way, giving everyone $1000 will likely increase prices, but the increased prices will be less than $1000.
- erik_seaberg 7y ago
  Supply and demand break down where increasing supply is practically illegal. As long as there's a severe shortage of housing, landlords can demand as much as the top nth percentile of renters are able to pay, because there is no competing landlord who will take a lower price. If this somehow doesn't drain California dry, it'll be interesting if this enables lots of frustrated marginally-employed people to move to areas with vacant housing (and no jobs, but so what?)

cheez 7y ago

The advantage of $1000 unconditional is that they can move to a city with a lower cost of living. And who cares about illegal immigrants in this regard... They're there illegally

foogazi 7y ago
> The advantage of $1000 unconditional is that they can move to a city with a lower cost of living. Only if it’s still in California If loving to LCOL is beneficial why can’t they do that now?
- cheez 7y ago
  Presumably they have no money

dragonwriter 7y ago

> I’ve always thought that this is going to hit illegal immigrants hardest. That might be an argument if it were a UBI, but this is not a UBI, and it is just going to hit the poor in general the hardest. > Rents on the low end are going to rise by $1000/month Even if they would with an actual UBI (which is a whole different debate), they won't with this plan [0], which (bizarrely, as its author calls it a UBI) leaves out essentially the entirety of the poor plus the transitionally unemployed (that is, it leaves out anyone receiving benefits under Medi-Cal, CalWORKS, CalFresh, or, weirdly, Unemployment Insurance.) Medi-Cal alone covers roughly the poorest 1/4 of Californians (10.8 million of 39.6 million in 2018.) Unemployment Insurance is the weirdest exclusion, because it makes the bite of transitional unemployment deeper by $1,000/mo. Why anyone thinks that's even a remotely sane idea is beyond me. Funded with a VAT (which has essentially the same regressive characteristics as sales tax) this is basically the opposite of a UBI, its an upward redistribution from the poor and unemployed to the comfortable and employed. The problem is not that it will drive low-end housing prices up, its that both the VAT and the not-all-universal Basic Income pieces will drive up prices on goods across the board (but not, except weakly indirectly, low-income housing.) http://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billTextClient.xhtml?bill_id=201920200AB2712 http://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billTextClient.xhtml...