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I find that students routinely divide instead of multiplying, especially if they are asked to solve for something and then calculate the result. For example, $

I find that students routinely divide instead of multiplying, especially if they are asked to solve for something and then calculate the result. For example, $f=ma$ gets transformed to $a=fm$ instead of $f/m$, yielding a large error unless $m$ happens to be near 1kg. Checking units is good way to check for incorrect formulae, but I've found that students who mix up division and multiplication are also uncomfortable with units. The use of calculators cannot explain lack of understanding of units, so I think the problem is more basic. I've known school teachers, and am somewhat familiar with curriculum. Both are basically fine, and neither explains the problems I see with students in university. It seems to me that the root problem is that students are never told, in serious terms, that getting the right answers is important. The way we signal importance is with grades. Students who have received passing grades for incorrect work through many years of school can hardly be expected to show attention to detail in university. America (et al.) may be throwing away a generation of talent, by pursuing what seems to be a policy of unconditional approval. Luckily, there is some hope: my foreign-trained students hand in correct work, with appropriate digits and units. Quite often, they also show how they have checked the work. I don't think it's because their first language was French, or German, or Mandarin; I think it is because they went to schools where learning was still the focus, as opposed to the congratulation for simply being, not accomplishing.

CraigJPerry 7y ago
It’s interesting that it’s been common to see this exact same opinion (a lack of conscientiousness on the part of students) expressed in Germany about German education over the past 10+ years yet you cite German students as a good example. In Germany it’s commonly stated that things were better previously and that there’s a ongoing decline. My understanding in the German case is that it’s not supported in any measures of student attainment - grades, earnings after 10 years etc.
- radiator 7y ago
  It is not necessarily a contradiction, it is possible that German education is now clearly worse than 10 or 20 years ago, but still not as bad as the current situation in grandparent's country.
  - sitkack 7y ago
    Perhaps all are true as you said, and that this is civilization's path towards always using the calculator for any calculation and uncritically trusting the output.
  - golem14 7y ago
    I think it’s regression to the mean. Parents with lots of education see their kids struggling and don’t understand that they themselves were positive outliers back then.
    - lonelappde 7y ago
      Also that rich kids think riches come for free. Boondocks to boardroom in 3 generations, and three generations back. Rags to riches to rags. Shirtsleeves to shirtsleeves. Clogs to clogs. Rice fields to Rice fields.
- firethief 7y ago
  > It’s interesting that it’s been common to see this exact same opinion (a lack of conscientiousness on the part of students) expressed in Germany about German education over the past 10+ years yet you cite German students as a good example. That fits the Dunning-Kruger effect. They are better than others at what they've been paying attention to improving. Not sure how to square that with their perception of decline though; maybe others who haven't been paying attention to the issue have declined worse, or just started out worse.
- lonelappde 7y ago
  It's well known around the world for quite a long time that kids today are lazy and stupid unlike their parents.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
jjeaff 7y ago
>I think it is because they went to schools where learning was still the focus Are you sure that's the case? Or is it perhaps because selection bias is bringing you only the smartest and best foreign students. I went to a public university. The criteria to get accepted was much lower for Americans. Foreign students had multiple layers of competitive selectivity they had to make it through before matriculating there.
- lonelappde 7y ago
  Or be willing to pay full price tuition and hire homework assistants and exam standins.
baud147258 7y ago
I don't think it's an issue of the focus on grading/getting the right answers, more a lack of focus, when teaching units, on getting coherent results, in regards of the units: for example not multiplying a distance and a time to get a speed and so on.
- grawprog 7y ago
  >in regards of the units: for example not multiplying a distance and a time to get a speed and so on. From my own personal experience it was exactly units like velocity d/t and pressure m/a or things like volume d^3 that I made the most mistakes on while I learned. Especially when it came to having to convert between different units within an equation. The only thing that really helped was practical experience working with real world units and geometries. I think one of my bigger problems was being unable to clearly visualize what it was the units actually represented. It wasn't until I started having to calculate distances, speeds and areas on maps, culvert diameters and volumes, water pressure through tunnels and actual 'real things' that I really started to understand and stopped making errors with units. But it took quite a while and it was only after 5 years or so at my last job of working with units and measurements every single day that I really became very comfortable with working with them.
lonelappde 7y ago
Your stereotypes are clouding your judgement. One could just as well/poorly say that the Mandarin students do well because they are rewarded for cheating all through school and continue to do so in college.

CraigJPerry 7y ago

It’s interesting that it’s been common to see this exact same opinion (a lack of conscientiousness on the part of students) expressed in Germany about German education over the past 10+ years yet you cite German students as a good example. In Germany it’s commonly stated that things were better previously and that there’s a ongoing decline. My understanding in the German case is that it’s not supported in any measures of student attainment - grades, earnings after 10 years etc.

radiator 7y ago
It is not necessarily a contradiction, it is possible that German education is now clearly worse than 10 or 20 years ago, but still not as bad as the current situation in grandparent's country.
- sitkack 7y ago
  Perhaps all are true as you said, and that this is civilization's path towards always using the calculator for any calculation and uncritically trusting the output.
- golem14 7y ago
  I think it’s regression to the mean. Parents with lots of education see their kids struggling and don’t understand that they themselves were positive outliers back then.
  - lonelappde 7y ago
    Also that rich kids think riches come for free. Boondocks to boardroom in 3 generations, and three generations back. Rags to riches to rags. Shirtsleeves to shirtsleeves. Clogs to clogs. Rice fields to Rice fields.
firethief 7y ago
> It’s interesting that it’s been common to see this exact same opinion (a lack of conscientiousness on the part of students) expressed in Germany about German education over the past 10+ years yet you cite German students as a good example. That fits the Dunning-Kruger effect. They are better than others at what they've been paying attention to improving. Not sure how to square that with their perception of decline though; maybe others who haven't been paying attention to the issue have declined worse, or just started out worse.
lonelappde 7y ago
It's well known around the world for quite a long time that kids today are lazy and stupid unlike their parents.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]

jjeaff 7y ago

>I think it is because they went to schools where learning was still the focus Are you sure that's the case? Or is it perhaps because selection bias is bringing you only the smartest and best foreign students. I went to a public university. The criteria to get accepted was much lower for Americans. Foreign students had multiple layers of competitive selectivity they had to make it through before matriculating there.

lonelappde 7y ago
Or be willing to pay full price tuition and hire homework assistants and exam standins.

baud147258 7y ago

I don't think it's an issue of the focus on grading/getting the right answers, more a lack of focus, when teaching units, on getting coherent results, in regards of the units: for example not multiplying a distance and a time to get a speed and so on.

grawprog 7y ago
>in regards of the units: for example not multiplying a distance and a time to get a speed and so on. From my own personal experience it was exactly units like velocity d/t and pressure m/a or things like volume d^3 that I made the most mistakes on while I learned. Especially when it came to having to convert between different units within an equation. The only thing that really helped was practical experience working with real world units and geometries. I think one of my bigger problems was being unable to clearly visualize what it was the units actually represented. It wasn't until I started having to calculate distances, speeds and areas on maps, culvert diameters and volumes, water pressure through tunnels and actual 'real things' that I really started to understand and stopped making errors with units. But it took quite a while and it was only after 5 years or so at my last job of working with units and measurements every single day that I really became very comfortable with working with them.

lonelappde 7y ago

Your stereotypes are clouding your judgement. One could just as well/poorly say that the Mandarin students do well because they are rewarded for cheating all through school and continue to do so in college.