4 ms·

If your goal is to optimize for equality of outcome then the only solution which works is a random lottery. Make the application process multifaceted and what y

If your goal is to optimize for equality of outcome then the only solution which works is a random lottery. Make the application process multifaceted and what you described happens. Make the application process all about one exam and you get what happens at magnet high schools in the US where 70%+ of students are middle class+ Asians and the rest are middle class+ White people. Throwing more resources / time at an application process and education in general will always yield an advantage no matter what you do.

barry-cotter 7y ago
> Make the application process all about one exam and you get what happens at magnet high schools in the US where 70%+ of students are middle class+ Asians and the rest are middle class+ White people. 37% of the students at Stuyvesant are eligible for free lunches. 9% are eligible for reduced price lunches[1]. Given those results it seems obvious that Stuyvesant’s students are poorer than average for New York. On a separate note fuck equality of outcome. Harrison Bergeron is not a goal to be aimed for. [1] https://data.nysed.gov/studenteducator.php?year=2018&instid=800000046741 https://data.nysed.gov/studenteducator.php?year=2018&instid=...
- Thriptic 7y ago
  I stand corrected, thanks
- charlesu 7y ago
  Lunch is free for all students. But when it wasn't, 75% of NYC students are eligible for free or reduced lunch. Stuyvesant students are better off than the average NYC public school. The proposed changes would consider class rank in addition to a standardized test. How is that in any way a form of equality of outcome? Is class rank random?
marcinzm 7y ago
>middle class+ Asians No, they're generally poor Asians who studied hard. Asians have the highest poverty rate in NYC. edit: Private school is where those who can afford it send their kids. edit2: I do find it interesting how discrimination and, I'd call it, racism against Asians is tolerated so much just because they're actually getting their kids out of poverty. Punish those who achieve the wanted goal, eh?
- charlesu 7y ago
  Can you cite a study that shows that Asians have the highest poverty rate in NYC. I'd be interested to see that. As for discrimination against Asians, what are you referring to exactly?
  - SpicyLemonZest 7y ago
    The city government's official site has lots of breakdowns on it[1]. Picking "Total NYC Population", "Race/Ethnicity", "Poverty" shows that Asian poverty has been the highest since 2007. The idea that an admissions policy is unacceptable if it admits too many Asians is, I assume, the discrimination being referred to. https://www1.nyc.gov/site/opportunity/poverty-in-nyc/data-tool.page https://www1.nyc.gov/site/opportunity/poverty-in-nyc/data-to...
  - TuringNYC 7y ago
    >> As for discrimination against Asians, what are you referring to exactly? This is widespread in NYC. Notice how convenient it is to "democratize" the Science High School exam procedure (where Asians took the most seats) while conveniently avoiding the democratizing of other things (where Asians did not do well.) For Example - Bard High School and other Private-ish public schools continue to go by the old system. Asians are under represented, and the city conveniently chose not to democratize this. For a more extreme example, what about about sports teams at NYC high schools. Asians are massively under-represented in basketball and other teams, why aren't these democratized for equal representation? Why stop at students. Have you noticed how few NYC school principals are Asians? Why aren't these jobs democratized for equal representation? Same for a host of cushy BoE jobs/titles/positions which offer lifetime benefits -- why arent these opened up to Asians? Basically, when Asians do well, the system is changed to demand equal representation. In places Asians dont do well, the system is kept as is.
    - charlesu 7y ago
      NYC wants to change to admissions process from being based on a single standardized test to being based on middle school class rank plus a standardized test. Under the current system, some middle schools send a lot of students, some send a few, and many send zero. Including class rank into the admissions criteria would change that. The change would probably increase the representation of black and Latino students at schools like Stuyvesant while maintaining an objective measure of merit: class rank. This change might help desegregate NYCs public schools by giving white and Asian parents a reason to send their kid to a majority black or Latino school. It could make middle schools more diverse as well. How would we use this same form of selection to increase Asian representation on high school basketball teams? It's already a de facto class rank system: each high school's basketball team is made of its best players. What's your proposal?

barry-cotter 7y ago

> Make the application process all about one exam and you get what happens at magnet high schools in the US where 70%+ of students are middle class+ Asians and the rest are middle class+ White people. 37% of the students at Stuyvesant are eligible for free lunches. 9% are eligible for reduced price lunches[1]. Given those results it seems obvious that Stuyvesant’s students are poorer than average for New York. On a separate note fuck equality of outcome. Harrison Bergeron is not a goal to be aimed for. [1] https://data.nysed.gov/studenteducator.php?year=2018&instid=800000046741 https://data.nysed.gov/studenteducator.php?year=2018&instid=...

Thriptic 7y ago
I stand corrected, thanks
charlesu 7y ago
Lunch is free for all students. But when it wasn't, 75% of NYC students are eligible for free or reduced lunch. Stuyvesant students are better off than the average NYC public school. The proposed changes would consider class rank in addition to a standardized test. How is that in any way a form of equality of outcome? Is class rank random?

marcinzm 7y ago

>middle class+ Asians No, they're generally poor Asians who studied hard. Asians have the highest poverty rate in NYC. edit: Private school is where those who can afford it send their kids. edit2: I do find it interesting how discrimination and, I'd call it, racism against Asians is tolerated so much just because they're actually getting their kids out of poverty. Punish those who achieve the wanted goal, eh?

charlesu 7y ago
Can you cite a study that shows that Asians have the highest poverty rate in NYC. I'd be interested to see that. As for discrimination against Asians, what are you referring to exactly?
- SpicyLemonZest 7y ago
  The city government's official site has lots of breakdowns on it[1]. Picking "Total NYC Population", "Race/Ethnicity", "Poverty" shows that Asian poverty has been the highest since 2007. The idea that an admissions policy is unacceptable if it admits too many Asians is, I assume, the discrimination being referred to. https://www1.nyc.gov/site/opportunity/poverty-in-nyc/data-tool.page https://www1.nyc.gov/site/opportunity/poverty-in-nyc/data-to...
- TuringNYC 7y ago
  >> As for discrimination against Asians, what are you referring to exactly? This is widespread in NYC. Notice how convenient it is to "democratize" the Science High School exam procedure (where Asians took the most seats) while conveniently avoiding the democratizing of other things (where Asians did not do well.) For Example - Bard High School and other Private-ish public schools continue to go by the old system. Asians are under represented, and the city conveniently chose not to democratize this. For a more extreme example, what about about sports teams at NYC high schools. Asians are massively under-represented in basketball and other teams, why aren't these democratized for equal representation? Why stop at students. Have you noticed how few NYC school principals are Asians? Why aren't these jobs democratized for equal representation? Same for a host of cushy BoE jobs/titles/positions which offer lifetime benefits -- why arent these opened up to Asians? Basically, when Asians do well, the system is changed to demand equal representation. In places Asians dont do well, the system is kept as is.
  - charlesu 7y ago
    NYC wants to change to admissions process from being based on a single standardized test to being based on middle school class rank plus a standardized test. Under the current system, some middle schools send a lot of students, some send a few, and many send zero. Including class rank into the admissions criteria would change that. The change would probably increase the representation of black and Latino students at schools like Stuyvesant while maintaining an objective measure of merit: class rank. This change might help desegregate NYCs public schools by giving white and Asian parents a reason to send their kid to a majority black or Latino school. It could make middle schools more diverse as well. How would we use this same form of selection to increase Asian representation on high school basketball teams? It's already a de facto class rank system: each high school's basketball team is made of its best players. What's your proposal?