4 ms·

Isn’t that great for the middle and upper classes? Instead of having to compete in one single fair competition they have all the advantages of more money, a gre

Isn’t that great for the middle and upper classes? Instead of having to compete in one single fair competition they have all the advantages of more money, a greater professional network and more cultural capital. If Little Abdul’s SAT results are mediocre we can get him an essay coach, send him to Costa Rica for a summer to teach the poor and arrange an internship in his uncle’s lab at the hospital.

Thriptic 7y ago
If your goal is to optimize for equality of outcome then the only solution which works is a random lottery. Make the application process multifaceted and what you described happens. Make the application process all about one exam and you get what happens at magnet high schools in the US where 70%+ of students are middle class+ Asians and the rest are middle class+ White people. Throwing more resources / time at an application process and education in general will always yield an advantage no matter what you do.
- barry-cotter 7y ago
  > Make the application process all about one exam and you get what happens at magnet high schools in the US where 70%+ of students are middle class+ Asians and the rest are middle class+ White people. 37% of the students at Stuyvesant are eligible for free lunches. 9% are eligible for reduced price lunches[1]. Given those results it seems obvious that Stuyvesant’s students are poorer than average for New York. On a separate note fuck equality of outcome. Harrison Bergeron is not a goal to be aimed for. [1] https://data.nysed.gov/studenteducator.php?year=2018&instid=800000046741 https://data.nysed.gov/studenteducator.php?year=2018&instid=...
  - Thriptic 7y ago
    I stand corrected, thanks
  - charlesu 7y ago
    Lunch is free for all students. But when it wasn't, 75% of NYC students are eligible for free or reduced lunch. Stuyvesant students are better off than the average NYC public school. The proposed changes would consider class rank in addition to a standardized test. How is that in any way a form of equality of outcome? Is class rank random?
- marcinzm 7y ago
  >middle class+ Asians No, they're generally poor Asians who studied hard. Asians have the highest poverty rate in NYC. edit: Private school is where those who can afford it send their kids. edit2: I do find it interesting how discrimination and, I'd call it, racism against Asians is tolerated so much just because they're actually getting their kids out of poverty. Punish those who achieve the wanted goal, eh?
  - charlesu 7y ago
    Can you cite a study that shows that Asians have the highest poverty rate in NYC. I'd be interested to see that. As for discrimination against Asians, what are you referring to exactly?
    - SpicyLemonZest 7y ago
      The city government's official site has lots of breakdowns on it[1]. Picking "Total NYC Population", "Race/Ethnicity", "Poverty" shows that Asian poverty has been the highest since 2007. The idea that an admissions policy is unacceptable if it admits too many Asians is, I assume, the discrimination being referred to. https://www1.nyc.gov/site/opportunity/poverty-in-nyc/data-tool.page https://www1.nyc.gov/site/opportunity/poverty-in-nyc/data-to...
    - TuringNYC 7y ago
      >> As for discrimination against Asians, what are you referring to exactly? This is widespread in NYC. Notice how convenient it is to "democratize" the Science High School exam procedure (where Asians took the most seats) while conveniently avoiding the democratizing of other things (where Asians did not do well.) For Example - Bard High School and other Private-ish public schools continue to go by the old system. Asians are under represented, and the city conveniently chose not to democratize this. For a more extreme example, what about about sports teams at NYC high schools. Asians are massively under-represented in basketball and other teams, why aren't these democratized for equal representation? Why stop at students. Have you noticed how few NYC school principals are Asians? Why aren't these jobs democratized for equal representation? Same for a host of cushy BoE jobs/titles/positions which offer lifetime benefits -- why arent these opened up to Asians? Basically, when Asians do well, the system is changed to demand equal representation. In places Asians dont do well, the system is kept as is.
marcinzm 7y ago
If it's a test then they'll pay for private test tutors and potentially just cheat. On the other hand the homeless kid working two illegal jobs to put food on the table won't have much time to study at all but would have a great essay topic.
unishark 7y ago
Sports are extra curricular activities. And recommendations are a way for a struggling student to get a second chance after grades and test scores. The privelidged would presumably have those covered either way thanks to tutors and a stable household or whatever. However when it comes to selective schools in particular, if gifted poor and lower middle class students are being edged out by wealthy kids with average-to-above-average abilities, thanks to parental connections and "working the system", then I totally agree with you there. Though I don't know that your list of advantages are things I think of as "middle class".
partingshots 7y ago
It’s far easier to game a test than it is to game your life. In a test only world, the fact that you have to work while going to school in order to support your family, etc. have zero impact on your outcome, even though these are huge considerations. To be able to still succeed while overcoming great adversity or challenge, is an extremely strong correlator to future success and potential. While a test will completely miss out on this indicator, a holistic review of the student can capture this. A country that chooses to use a single exam as the determinator wipes out a vast majority of their effective potential, as scores of future prodigies born into circumstances that they had no choice in are grinded away. In this way, there is both a moral and pragmatic reason for reviewing students holistically. You simply miss out on too many people with great potential otherwise.
thaumasiotes 7y ago
> Isn’t that great for the middle and upper classes? Instead of having to compete in one single fair competition they have all the advantages of more money, a greater professional network and more cultural capital. Yes, this is why it's so common for the children of Chinese politicians to go to American universities.

Thriptic 7y ago

If your goal is to optimize for equality of outcome then the only solution which works is a random lottery. Make the application process multifaceted and what you described happens. Make the application process all about one exam and you get what happens at magnet high schools in the US where 70%+ of students are middle class+ Asians and the rest are middle class+ White people. Throwing more resources / time at an application process and education in general will always yield an advantage no matter what you do.

barry-cotter 7y ago
> Make the application process all about one exam and you get what happens at magnet high schools in the US where 70%+ of students are middle class+ Asians and the rest are middle class+ White people. 37% of the students at Stuyvesant are eligible for free lunches. 9% are eligible for reduced price lunches[1]. Given those results it seems obvious that Stuyvesant’s students are poorer than average for New York. On a separate note fuck equality of outcome. Harrison Bergeron is not a goal to be aimed for. [1] https://data.nysed.gov/studenteducator.php?year=2018&instid=800000046741 https://data.nysed.gov/studenteducator.php?year=2018&instid=...
- Thriptic 7y ago
  I stand corrected, thanks
- charlesu 7y ago
  Lunch is free for all students. But when it wasn't, 75% of NYC students are eligible for free or reduced lunch. Stuyvesant students are better off than the average NYC public school. The proposed changes would consider class rank in addition to a standardized test. How is that in any way a form of equality of outcome? Is class rank random?
marcinzm 7y ago
>middle class+ Asians No, they're generally poor Asians who studied hard. Asians have the highest poverty rate in NYC. edit: Private school is where those who can afford it send their kids. edit2: I do find it interesting how discrimination and, I'd call it, racism against Asians is tolerated so much just because they're actually getting their kids out of poverty. Punish those who achieve the wanted goal, eh?
- charlesu 7y ago
  Can you cite a study that shows that Asians have the highest poverty rate in NYC. I'd be interested to see that. As for discrimination against Asians, what are you referring to exactly?
  - SpicyLemonZest 7y ago
    The city government's official site has lots of breakdowns on it[1]. Picking "Total NYC Population", "Race/Ethnicity", "Poverty" shows that Asian poverty has been the highest since 2007. The idea that an admissions policy is unacceptable if it admits too many Asians is, I assume, the discrimination being referred to. https://www1.nyc.gov/site/opportunity/poverty-in-nyc/data-tool.page https://www1.nyc.gov/site/opportunity/poverty-in-nyc/data-to...
  - TuringNYC 7y ago
    >> As for discrimination against Asians, what are you referring to exactly? This is widespread in NYC. Notice how convenient it is to "democratize" the Science High School exam procedure (where Asians took the most seats) while conveniently avoiding the democratizing of other things (where Asians did not do well.) For Example - Bard High School and other Private-ish public schools continue to go by the old system. Asians are under represented, and the city conveniently chose not to democratize this. For a more extreme example, what about about sports teams at NYC high schools. Asians are massively under-represented in basketball and other teams, why aren't these democratized for equal representation? Why stop at students. Have you noticed how few NYC school principals are Asians? Why aren't these jobs democratized for equal representation? Same for a host of cushy BoE jobs/titles/positions which offer lifetime benefits -- why arent these opened up to Asians? Basically, when Asians do well, the system is changed to demand equal representation. In places Asians dont do well, the system is kept as is.

marcinzm 7y ago

If it's a test then they'll pay for private test tutors and potentially just cheat. On the other hand the homeless kid working two illegal jobs to put food on the table won't have much time to study at all but would have a great essay topic.

unishark 7y ago

Sports are extra curricular activities. And recommendations are a way for a struggling student to get a second chance after grades and test scores. The privelidged would presumably have those covered either way thanks to tutors and a stable household or whatever. However when it comes to selective schools in particular, if gifted poor and lower middle class students are being edged out by wealthy kids with average-to-above-average abilities, thanks to parental connections and "working the system", then I totally agree with you there. Though I don't know that your list of advantages are things I think of as "middle class".

partingshots 7y ago

It’s far easier to game a test than it is to game your life. In a test only world, the fact that you have to work while going to school in order to support your family, etc. have zero impact on your outcome, even though these are huge considerations. To be able to still succeed while overcoming great adversity or challenge, is an extremely strong correlator to future success and potential. While a test will completely miss out on this indicator, a holistic review of the student can capture this. A country that chooses to use a single exam as the determinator wipes out a vast majority of their effective potential, as scores of future prodigies born into circumstances that they had no choice in are grinded away. In this way, there is both a moral and pragmatic reason for reviewing students holistically. You simply miss out on too many people with great potential otherwise.

thaumasiotes 7y ago

> Isn’t that great for the middle and upper classes? Instead of having to compete in one single fair competition they have all the advantages of more money, a greater professional network and more cultural capital. Yes, this is why it's so common for the children of Chinese politicians to go to American universities.