7 ms·

How are American SATs different?

Reelin 7y ago
You can retake the SAT (and GRE, and MCAT, and ...) as many times as you'd like (and can afford, I suppose). Also, the amount of weight such exams are given varies greatly by the institution here. Edit: For the SAT in particular, most publish tables showing their historical admission rate as it correlates to the combination of high school GPA and SAT score.
- TingPing 7y ago
  You can even go to many colleges without the sat (nothing prestigious ofc)
  - unishark 7y ago
    Many top schools are no longer requiring test scores in fact. There is an argument that the test itself is somehow biased against under-represented groups. Also, less nobly, if a school makes test scores optional, their average test scores increase (which is a factor in rankings) since students will only submit them if they have good scores.
    - saagarjha 7y ago
      > Many top schools are no longer requiring test scores in fact. When I applied to college, there were a number of schools that has something that was “optional” but word on the street was that you’d have no hope of getting in without it. How “optional” are these, really?
      - iends 7y ago
        It’s probably like a lot of companies that offer remote work: if you have demonstrated already you are world class, they’ll make exceptions.
        saagarjha 7y ago
        FWIW, all the people I know who went to “world class” universities did all the “optional” things.
      - unishark 7y ago
        I have been on admissions committees and there is of course the possibility in your mind that students who did not submit scores probably had bad ones. I certainly prefer having scores. But when tests are optional, plenty people will also just want to save the $50 or whatever it costs to take the thing. Particularly from poorer families. So you can't be sure and hate to reject a super candidate on this reason alone. Also there's always some people in admissions who are adamantly anti-test anyway. They do look deeper into the high school's reputation and individual course grades to make up the missing info that the test would have provided.
- bobthepanda 7y ago
  It's also worth noting that the SATs are offered multiple times a year, which makes retaking them a lot easier. The big pressure cooker exams in Korea are once a year, so if you choose to retake it (and many do) you are set back for a year.
JumpCrisscross 7y ago
In addition to the SAT being optional and re-takeable, where one goes to school is less predictive of success in American society than e.g. Britain or Germany or Japan. (Not unpredictive. But a second-tier degree doesn’t bar one from high office or Fortune 500 executive suites.)
- barry-cotter 7y ago
  To a first, second and third approximation no one in Germany gives a crap what school you went to. Germany used to have élite universities like Heidelberg, and Tübingen. This was deliberately leveled into consistent mediocrity starting in the late 60s. One German university is basically as good as another.
currymj 7y ago
schools at different levels of selectivity informally have some kind of SAT percentile cutoff but it's not ever a hard requirement, or the only thing considered, and also you can get into a reasonable university with a mediocre SAT score.
marcinzm 7y ago
It's been 15 years since I went through the process but top universities required an application packet not an exam. The SAT and your grades were part of that but so were essays, extracurricular activities, letters of recommendation and so on. Some interviewed potential students as well. There were many ways to show potential excellence rather than a single one.
- barry-cotter 7y ago
  Isn’t that great for the middle and upper classes? Instead of having to compete in one single fair competition they have all the advantages of more money, a greater professional network and more cultural capital. If Little Abdul’s SAT results are mediocre we can get him an essay coach, send him to Costa Rica for a summer to teach the poor and arrange an internship in his uncle’s lab at the hospital.
  - Thriptic 7y ago
    If your goal is to optimize for equality of outcome then the only solution which works is a random lottery. Make the application process multifaceted and what you described happens. Make the application process all about one exam and you get what happens at magnet high schools in the US where 70%+ of students are middle class+ Asians and the rest are middle class+ White people. Throwing more resources / time at an application process and education in general will always yield an advantage no matter what you do.
    - barry-cotter 7y ago
      > Make the application process all about one exam and you get what happens at magnet high schools in the US where 70%+ of students are middle class+ Asians and the rest are middle class+ White people. 37% of the students at Stuyvesant are eligible for free lunches. 9% are eligible for reduced price lunches[1]. Given those results it seems obvious that Stuyvesant’s students are poorer than average for New York. On a separate note fuck equality of outcome. Harrison Bergeron is not a goal to be aimed for. [1] https://data.nysed.gov/studenteducator.php?year=2018&instid=800000046741 https://data.nysed.gov/studenteducator.php?year=2018&instid=...
lr4444lr 7y ago
The SAT doesn't track you for the kind of education you can get; at best, it's just one factor to rank you within schools of the same purpose. Also, they're more typically used as a floor to simply winnow out the lower end of the applicant pool that has virtually no chance of making it in so that the committees aren't wasting their time weighing applications that will almost certainly be rejected, not hard disqualify viable candidates.
aianus 7y ago
You don’t need to go to college at all to get a good job in America (at least in tech in SV, ymmv). Anecdotally Germany doesn’t have that culture, they really really care about those pieces of paper. I’ve even had a coworker in SV who was 15 and worked remotely at night after their high school classes and over the summer.

You can retake the SAT (and GRE, and MCAT, and ...) as many times as you'd like (and can afford, I suppose). Also, the amount of weight such exams are given varies greatly by the institution here. Edit: For the SAT in particular, most publish tables showing their historical admission rate as it correlates to the combination of high school GPA and SAT score.

TingPing 7y ago
You can even go to many colleges without the sat (nothing prestigious ofc)
- unishark 7y ago
  Many top schools are no longer requiring test scores in fact. There is an argument that the test itself is somehow biased against under-represented groups. Also, less nobly, if a school makes test scores optional, their average test scores increase (which is a factor in rankings) since students will only submit them if they have good scores.
  - saagarjha 7y ago
    > Many top schools are no longer requiring test scores in fact. When I applied to college, there were a number of schools that has something that was “optional” but word on the street was that you’d have no hope of getting in without it. How “optional” are these, really?
    - iends 7y ago
      It’s probably like a lot of companies that offer remote work: if you have demonstrated already you are world class, they’ll make exceptions.
      - saagarjha 7y ago
        FWIW, all the people I know who went to “world class” universities did all the “optional” things.
    - unishark 7y ago
      I have been on admissions committees and there is of course the possibility in your mind that students who did not submit scores probably had bad ones. I certainly prefer having scores. But when tests are optional, plenty people will also just want to save the $50 or whatever it costs to take the thing. Particularly from poorer families. So you can't be sure and hate to reject a super candidate on this reason alone. Also there's always some people in admissions who are adamantly anti-test anyway. They do look deeper into the high school's reputation and individual course grades to make up the missing info that the test would have provided.
bobthepanda 7y ago
It's also worth noting that the SATs are offered multiple times a year, which makes retaking them a lot easier. The big pressure cooker exams in Korea are once a year, so if you choose to retake it (and many do) you are set back for a year.

JumpCrisscross 7y ago

In addition to the SAT being optional and re-takeable, where one goes to school is less predictive of success in American society than e.g. Britain or Germany or Japan. (Not unpredictive. But a second-tier degree doesn’t bar one from high office or Fortune 500 executive suites.)

barry-cotter 7y ago
To a first, second and third approximation no one in Germany gives a crap what school you went to. Germany used to have élite universities like Heidelberg, and Tübingen. This was deliberately leveled into consistent mediocrity starting in the late 60s. One German university is basically as good as another.

currymj 7y ago

schools at different levels of selectivity informally have some kind of SAT percentile cutoff but it's not ever a hard requirement, or the only thing considered, and also you can get into a reasonable university with a mediocre SAT score.

marcinzm 7y ago

It's been 15 years since I went through the process but top universities required an application packet not an exam. The SAT and your grades were part of that but so were essays, extracurricular activities, letters of recommendation and so on. Some interviewed potential students as well. There were many ways to show potential excellence rather than a single one.

barry-cotter 7y ago
Isn’t that great for the middle and upper classes? Instead of having to compete in one single fair competition they have all the advantages of more money, a greater professional network and more cultural capital. If Little Abdul’s SAT results are mediocre we can get him an essay coach, send him to Costa Rica for a summer to teach the poor and arrange an internship in his uncle’s lab at the hospital.
- Thriptic 7y ago
  If your goal is to optimize for equality of outcome then the only solution which works is a random lottery. Make the application process multifaceted and what you described happens. Make the application process all about one exam and you get what happens at magnet high schools in the US where 70%+ of students are middle class+ Asians and the rest are middle class+ White people. Throwing more resources / time at an application process and education in general will always yield an advantage no matter what you do.
  - barry-cotter 7y ago
    > Make the application process all about one exam and you get what happens at magnet high schools in the US where 70%+ of students are middle class+ Asians and the rest are middle class+ White people. 37% of the students at Stuyvesant are eligible for free lunches. 9% are eligible for reduced price lunches[1]. Given those results it seems obvious that Stuyvesant’s students are poorer than average for New York. On a separate note fuck equality of outcome. Harrison Bergeron is not a goal to be aimed for. [1] https://data.nysed.gov/studenteducator.php?year=2018&instid=800000046741 https://data.nysed.gov/studenteducator.php?year=2018&instid=...

lr4444lr 7y ago

The SAT doesn't track you for the kind of education you can get; at best, it's just one factor to rank you within schools of the same purpose. Also, they're more typically used as a floor to simply winnow out the lower end of the applicant pool that has virtually no chance of making it in so that the committees aren't wasting their time weighing applications that will almost certainly be rejected, not hard disqualify viable candidates.

aianus 7y ago

You don’t need to go to college at all to get a good job in America (at least in tech in SV, ymmv). Anecdotally Germany doesn’t have that culture, they really really care about those pieces of paper. I’ve even had a coworker in SV who was 15 and worked remotely at night after their high school classes and over the summer.