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As the article notes, this is treating the symptom rather than the problem. When you have a system which dramatically favors graduates from top schools, entranc

As the article notes, this is treating the symptom rather than the problem. When you have a system which dramatically favors graduates from top schools, entrance criteria solely based on single exams, and punishment for single exam failures for life (ie if you don't do well on exam 1 you are effectively booted from the prestigious track forever), of course everyone is going to cram relentlessly for exams. If you send people home from cram schools, students will simply be forced to study at home. I'm not sure what the solution is for this (other than to create more slots at good schools or more good schools) but curfews certainly will not work.

trophycase 7y ago
Maybe, but it might be a nice wake up call that there is a problem.
esotericn 7y ago
It's not like the system is fundamentally better in other countries. In Britain there's a colossal effect from landing a place at a few good schools / universities. We mainly handle that by setting low expectations for most of the populace (e.g. the class system) and gate it by cost.
- umvi 7y ago
  People always criticize America for having expensive universities but I always thought it was horribly depressing when my German friends told me that their entire future was staked on a single exam. Do poorly and not only can you not get into college but you'll be a sanitation worker for the rest of your life (or similar).
  - barry-cotter 7y ago
    This is bullshit. Most courses in most universities are open admission if you have an Abitur. If you have an Abitur but you want to to a course that’s in high demand and your grades are insufficient you can get in if you’re willing to wait. I met a girl who competed a three year Physiotherapy apprenticeship while waiting to get into Medicine. If you didn’t go to Gymnasium (university prep school) you can get an Abitur in one year after graduating Realschule or you can get a Bachelor’s from a Fachhochschule and then a Master’s from a university. Germany streams more aggressively than the US but the idea that there are no second chances is a joke.
    - arrrg 7y ago
      If you have Abitur is the thing here. You have to have that (yeah, Realschule plus FH works, too, but that’s not exactly the same and also a whole thing). To say nothing of the absolute bonkers aggressive tracking that’s happening early on. It’s not a single test and might not seem as dramatic because of that, but if you actually think about it, it’s horrific. I think this seeming less dramatic (because it’s not a single test but rather something that happens to kids just entering puberty, long before they will ever think about going to university) makes it seem all nice and fair, but actually it’s horrible.
      - quelltext 7y ago
        I have a few friends from Germany who started out in Hauptschule and later had to work hard to get their Abitur after the fact. It's possible, though really hard. They tell me there are options to move on from Hauptschule to Realschule, etc. if that's really what you want and have the drive. The problem is the environment. Everyone around you isn't going to college, they're all going to work in some factory or as a salesclerk, and you're a nerd if you try to advance. One other factor here is I think that it's usually the parents who decide your future early on. Yes, there's recommendations by your school, but AFAIK this is not definite and can be overridden within reason. However, if the parents never get the Abitur or have many friends who did, they'll be intimidated, even if your grades are perfect and you got the recommendation to go on the university track. So often they put you in the same school track they took since they know what to expect. It hinders social mobility. On the other hand not everyone wants to go to college, not everyone wants to study and rather get their hands dirty in a job that doesn't require a degree. Forcing those who don't to stay in school (if there's a single track) till the end with a lot of struggling towards the end (and then the stigma of not completing would be bad as well) maybe graduating with bad grades... that doesn't sound ideal either.
      - tastroder 7y ago
        You can get your Abitur in adult life should you chose to do so, with little monetary loss. How is that an indication of a "horrible" / less fair system when compared to the American alternative? @sibling comment: While that's a negligible thing, most conflict when chosing the advanced school track over here arises from parents that prefer to send their kids to higher than recommended school tracks rather than lower ones. Plus, these days, the lower two tiers of advanced schools often take place within the same institution and allows students to relatively flexible switch to one appropriate for them.
  - Zenbit_UX 7y ago
    How are American SATs different?
    - Reelin 7y ago
      You can retake the SAT (and GRE, and MCAT, and ...) as many times as you'd like (and can afford, I suppose). Also, the amount of weight such exams are given varies greatly by the institution here. Edit: For the SAT in particular, most publish tables showing their historical admission rate as it correlates to the combination of high school GPA and SAT score.
      - TingPing 7y ago
        You can even go to many colleges without the sat (nothing prestigious ofc)
        unishark 7y ago
        Many top schools are no longer requiring test scores in fact. There is an argument that the test itself is somehow biased against under-represented groups. Also, less nobly, if a school makes test scores optional, their average test scores increase (which is a factor in rankings) since students will only submit them if they have good scores.
        saagarjha 7y ago
        > Many top schools are no longer requiring test scores in fact. When I applied to college, there were a number of schools that has something that was “optional” but word on the street was that you’d have no hope of getting in without it. How “optional” are these, really?
        iends 7y ago
        It’s probably like a lot of companies that offer remote work: if you have demonstrated already you are world class, they’ll make exceptions.
  - simion314 7y ago
    If you say fail the exam to enter a medical university you can try next year(or in a different city) but yeah if you prefer filtering by money rather then knowledge then what I can say is a very american way so I am not surprised. Here in Romania they made a mixed system, there are say 50 free sports and 50+ paid spots so if you have the money you can have an advantage over the poor people (hopefully there are no many competitors rich and smarter then you)
8bitsrule 7y ago
If these children only knew what they are losing to 'win', they could respond by failing exam 1. I can only begin to imagine the psychological future for SK. I'm already concerned for parents that would tolerate this hyper-rat-race.
knzhou 7y ago
Exams or not, there will be no fix as long as there is zero-sum competition for a scarce good. And in this case, there is necessarily scarcity because prestige is positional: "the top schools" will necessarily always be a small fraction of all schools. (Of course all of this also applies to western countries.)

trophycase 7y ago

Maybe, but it might be a nice wake up call that there is a problem.

esotericn 7y ago

It's not like the system is fundamentally better in other countries. In Britain there's a colossal effect from landing a place at a few good schools / universities. We mainly handle that by setting low expectations for most of the populace (e.g. the class system) and gate it by cost.

umvi 7y ago
People always criticize America for having expensive universities but I always thought it was horribly depressing when my German friends told me that their entire future was staked on a single exam. Do poorly and not only can you not get into college but you'll be a sanitation worker for the rest of your life (or similar).
- barry-cotter 7y ago
  This is bullshit. Most courses in most universities are open admission if you have an Abitur. If you have an Abitur but you want to to a course that’s in high demand and your grades are insufficient you can get in if you’re willing to wait. I met a girl who competed a three year Physiotherapy apprenticeship while waiting to get into Medicine. If you didn’t go to Gymnasium (university prep school) you can get an Abitur in one year after graduating Realschule or you can get a Bachelor’s from a Fachhochschule and then a Master’s from a university. Germany streams more aggressively than the US but the idea that there are no second chances is a joke.
  - arrrg 7y ago
    If you have Abitur is the thing here. You have to have that (yeah, Realschule plus FH works, too, but that’s not exactly the same and also a whole thing). To say nothing of the absolute bonkers aggressive tracking that’s happening early on. It’s not a single test and might not seem as dramatic because of that, but if you actually think about it, it’s horrific. I think this seeming less dramatic (because it’s not a single test but rather something that happens to kids just entering puberty, long before they will ever think about going to university) makes it seem all nice and fair, but actually it’s horrible.
    - quelltext 7y ago
      I have a few friends from Germany who started out in Hauptschule and later had to work hard to get their Abitur after the fact. It's possible, though really hard. They tell me there are options to move on from Hauptschule to Realschule, etc. if that's really what you want and have the drive. The problem is the environment. Everyone around you isn't going to college, they're all going to work in some factory or as a salesclerk, and you're a nerd if you try to advance. One other factor here is I think that it's usually the parents who decide your future early on. Yes, there's recommendations by your school, but AFAIK this is not definite and can be overridden within reason. However, if the parents never get the Abitur or have many friends who did, they'll be intimidated, even if your grades are perfect and you got the recommendation to go on the university track. So often they put you in the same school track they took since they know what to expect. It hinders social mobility. On the other hand not everyone wants to go to college, not everyone wants to study and rather get their hands dirty in a job that doesn't require a degree. Forcing those who don't to stay in school (if there's a single track) till the end with a lot of struggling towards the end (and then the stigma of not completing would be bad as well) maybe graduating with bad grades... that doesn't sound ideal either.
    - tastroder 7y ago
      You can get your Abitur in adult life should you chose to do so, with little monetary loss. How is that an indication of a "horrible" / less fair system when compared to the American alternative? @sibling comment: While that's a negligible thing, most conflict when chosing the advanced school track over here arises from parents that prefer to send their kids to higher than recommended school tracks rather than lower ones. Plus, these days, the lower two tiers of advanced schools often take place within the same institution and allows students to relatively flexible switch to one appropriate for them.
- Zenbit_UX 7y ago
  How are American SATs different?
  - Reelin 7y ago
    You can retake the SAT (and GRE, and MCAT, and ...) as many times as you'd like (and can afford, I suppose). Also, the amount of weight such exams are given varies greatly by the institution here. Edit: For the SAT in particular, most publish tables showing their historical admission rate as it correlates to the combination of high school GPA and SAT score.
    - TingPing 7y ago
      You can even go to many colleges without the sat (nothing prestigious ofc)
      - unishark 7y ago
        Many top schools are no longer requiring test scores in fact. There is an argument that the test itself is somehow biased against under-represented groups. Also, less nobly, if a school makes test scores optional, their average test scores increase (which is a factor in rankings) since students will only submit them if they have good scores.
        saagarjha 7y ago
        > Many top schools are no longer requiring test scores in fact. When I applied to college, there were a number of schools that has something that was “optional” but word on the street was that you’d have no hope of getting in without it. How “optional” are these, really?
        iends 7y ago
        It’s probably like a lot of companies that offer remote work: if you have demonstrated already you are world class, they’ll make exceptions.
- simion314 7y ago
  If you say fail the exam to enter a medical university you can try next year(or in a different city) but yeah if you prefer filtering by money rather then knowledge then what I can say is a very american way so I am not surprised. Here in Romania they made a mixed system, there are say 50 free sports and 50+ paid spots so if you have the money you can have an advantage over the poor people (hopefully there are no many competitors rich and smarter then you)

8bitsrule 7y ago

If these children only knew what they are losing to 'win', they could respond by failing exam 1. I can only begin to imagine the psychological future for SK. I'm already concerned for parents that would tolerate this hyper-rat-race.

knzhou 7y ago

Exams or not, there will be no fix as long as there is zero-sum competition for a scarce good. And in this case, there is necessarily scarcity because prestige is positional: "the top schools" will necessarily always be a small fraction of all schools. (Of course all of this also applies to western countries.)