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I often hear people use that logic as a reason why software doesn't qualify as engineering

chrstphrknwtn 7y ago
Do you share the opinion that software doesn’t qualify as engineering? I’ve always thought it is a little bit of a stretch.
- lifeisstillgood 7y ago
  My view is software is literacy not engineering or science. It tends to make more sense for me. A book that starts out as a romance is just as hard to convert to a spy thriller half way through as a bridge and a tunnel (Ok not total effort but in terms of percentage of rework)
  - Noumenon72 7y ago
    I think you mean "literature".
    - lifeisstillgood 7y ago
      Yeah. I use the term software literacy a lot so my bad
- TheOtherHobbes 7y ago
  Engineering means using math to model your solution so the first time you build something it works to spec. Or at least it's close enough to only require minor changes, not a fresh redesign. It's essentially applied physics. Software is more like nailing things together in the hope they might work. ML has some modelling, and formal methods are available for mission critical projects. But the rest is mostly nail guns and glue. Engineers have never done themselves any favours with the "engineering" label. In many countries, especially English-speaking ones, the job doesn't get the respect it deserves. Most people have no idea what the job involves. They literally think it means someone with an oily rag who fixes cars and/or computers and/or drives big machines around to make bridges and tunnels and such - like a house builder, but on a bigger scale.
  - tsss 7y ago
    But how many mech/civil engineers actually do any math beyond napkin calculations in their day-to-day work? It's way too complicated and all the math is now done by computers. In fact I'd argue that outside of research more computer scientists are doing mechanical engineering math than actual mechanical engineers, because they have to write the CAD software that the latter use. At the end of the day the vast majority of mechanical, civil, electrical engineers and computer scientists work on stuff that doesn't require math at all.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - JoeCamel 7y ago
    * "Engineering is the use of scientific principles to design and build machines, structures, and other items" * Mathematics isn't only about calculation and applied physics. When you write a simple algorithm and convince yourself with a logical argument about its correctness, time complexity, etc. that is math too. You also do calculations when you design various systems (latency, throughput, etc.) * I know a dozen mechanical, structural, and electrical engineers. They almost never model anything from first mathematical principles, they use well known tools and methods they learned. Their "nail guns and glue". Actually I think most of them don't understand math/physics behind it very deeply. So even if those methods are underpinned with mathematics and physics, it's abstracted away most of the time which is good for practical purposes. Even in "user-interface programming", I often had to use math, algorithms, etc. In other parts of software engineering I used it much more.
    - billfruit 7y ago
      Even most mechanical/civil engineers use very simplified models than is used by physicists. Engineers usually use Newtonian mechanics in its elementary formulation, and is not usual for them to be familiar with Lagrangian/Hamilton/Variational formulations.
  - arvinsim 7y ago
    That's thereason why I always call myself a Software Developer. It allows me to explain what I do as opposed to the baggage laden "engineer" title.
- meagain3 7y ago
  Real engineers in north America must write technical and ethical exams, have at least 4 years of continuous and proved experience before they can call themselves engineers. Is indeed sad that people with no knowledge of thermodynamics or strength of materials can call themselves engineers as well...
  - 1234_UUUU_99 7y ago
    I guess you're making the distinction between professional and non-professional engineers? There's not really the class divide in engineering fields that you're suggesting. I have a brother who is an ME, designs power plants (the building sized ones) and is not "professional". I asked him about it and he said it wouldn't change his role or his salary, so he never bothered going through the process. IIRC there's one person on the team who is, for whatever formalities are required.
    - amelius 7y ago
      > IIRC there's one person on the team who is, for whatever formalities are required. Is that person making more money? Because I've heard stories that these people do, because they are especially valuable to the company.
  - BlueTemplar 7y ago
    Huh, I had no idea... So the other people are literally amateur engineers?
  - ClumsyPilot 7y ago
    Yes, I had the option of becoming professionally accredited if I I'd the 4 year instead of the 3 year programm, but its relevance is kinda limited
- billfruit 7y ago
  May be software programmers work is more similar to how mathematicians work, rather than of engineers, though with a more imperative, procedural bent.
- Rury 7y ago
  I always thought engineering was simply applied math and science. You're not researching and testing new theory explaining the nature behind how phenomena work, or developing new mathematical techniques, that's for scientists and mathematicians. Rather engineers take their work, and apply it to invent things and solve problems. As so, I'd consider software development can qualify as engineering. If you're taking the work of computer scientists and mathematicians (or any other science fields) and applying it to software, it fits the definition. If you're just laying code to a given spec without much more thought, then you're just a programmer/developer...
cameronbrown 7y ago
It can be in some circumstances.. I think that the engineering mindset (adherence to the scientific method, evidence based decisions, planning for the future etc..) is one that is definitely shared by both groups at least. But you can absolutely get away with building software without proper engineering standards. It's not so easy to build bridges that way.
- klowner 7y ago
  Too many companies taking a "McMansion" approach to software and we wonder why everything is constantly broken.
- 1234_UUUU_99 7y ago
  > It's not so easy to build bridges that way. I'd wager that it is but the stakes for failure are too high to wing it (hopefully). Imagine: We want to build a bridge that spans N meters. We don't know how to do it but we can go look at an existing bridge and copy it. We might not understand metallurgy / physics that well, but we talk to suppliers and ask for "steel of this shape and size". Ditto cables, concrete and everything else. Probably, provided we're not scaling up or changing the design too much, it would work just fine.
- radicalbyte 7y ago
  You have cowboy builders in the "engineering" area too. For some reason in software we seem to be more accepting of it.
  - cameronbrown 7y ago
    For most non-engineers (either kind), engineering is just a means to an end, i.e. don't care about the finer details as long as it works. When software goes wrong, the effects are more often than not, intangible. When mechanical engineering or electrical engineering goes wrong, people can die. Software can obviously kill people too, it just happens less. Then industry practices revert to the mean due to cost cutting.

Do you share the opinion that software doesn’t qualify as engineering? I’ve always thought it is a little bit of a stretch.

lifeisstillgood 7y ago
My view is software is literacy not engineering or science. It tends to make more sense for me. A book that starts out as a romance is just as hard to convert to a spy thriller half way through as a bridge and a tunnel (Ok not total effort but in terms of percentage of rework)
- Noumenon72 7y ago
  I think you mean "literature".
  - lifeisstillgood 7y ago
    Yeah. I use the term software literacy a lot so my bad
TheOtherHobbes 7y ago
Engineering means using math to model your solution so the first time you build something it works to spec. Or at least it's close enough to only require minor changes, not a fresh redesign. It's essentially applied physics. Software is more like nailing things together in the hope they might work. ML has some modelling, and formal methods are available for mission critical projects. But the rest is mostly nail guns and glue. Engineers have never done themselves any favours with the "engineering" label. In many countries, especially English-speaking ones, the job doesn't get the respect it deserves. Most people have no idea what the job involves. They literally think it means someone with an oily rag who fixes cars and/or computers and/or drives big machines around to make bridges and tunnels and such - like a house builder, but on a bigger scale.
- tsss 7y ago
  But how many mech/civil engineers actually do any math beyond napkin calculations in their day-to-day work? It's way too complicated and all the math is now done by computers. In fact I'd argue that outside of research more computer scientists are doing mechanical engineering math than actual mechanical engineers, because they have to write the CAD software that the latter use. At the end of the day the vast majority of mechanical, civil, electrical engineers and computer scientists work on stuff that doesn't require math at all.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- JoeCamel 7y ago
  * "Engineering is the use of scientific principles to design and build machines, structures, and other items" * Mathematics isn't only about calculation and applied physics. When you write a simple algorithm and convince yourself with a logical argument about its correctness, time complexity, etc. that is math too. You also do calculations when you design various systems (latency, throughput, etc.) * I know a dozen mechanical, structural, and electrical engineers. They almost never model anything from first mathematical principles, they use well known tools and methods they learned. Their "nail guns and glue". Actually I think most of them don't understand math/physics behind it very deeply. So even if those methods are underpinned with mathematics and physics, it's abstracted away most of the time which is good for practical purposes. Even in "user-interface programming", I often had to use math, algorithms, etc. In other parts of software engineering I used it much more.
  - billfruit 7y ago
    Even most mechanical/civil engineers use very simplified models than is used by physicists. Engineers usually use Newtonian mechanics in its elementary formulation, and is not usual for them to be familiar with Lagrangian/Hamilton/Variational formulations.
- arvinsim 7y ago
  That's thereason why I always call myself a Software Developer. It allows me to explain what I do as opposed to the baggage laden "engineer" title.
meagain3 7y ago
Real engineers in north America must write technical and ethical exams, have at least 4 years of continuous and proved experience before they can call themselves engineers. Is indeed sad that people with no knowledge of thermodynamics or strength of materials can call themselves engineers as well...
- 1234_UUUU_99 7y ago
  I guess you're making the distinction between professional and non-professional engineers? There's not really the class divide in engineering fields that you're suggesting. I have a brother who is an ME, designs power plants (the building sized ones) and is not "professional". I asked him about it and he said it wouldn't change his role or his salary, so he never bothered going through the process. IIRC there's one person on the team who is, for whatever formalities are required.
  - amelius 7y ago
    > IIRC there's one person on the team who is, for whatever formalities are required. Is that person making more money? Because I've heard stories that these people do, because they are especially valuable to the company.
- BlueTemplar 7y ago
  Huh, I had no idea... So the other people are literally amateur engineers?
- ClumsyPilot 7y ago
  Yes, I had the option of becoming professionally accredited if I I'd the 4 year instead of the 3 year programm, but its relevance is kinda limited
billfruit 7y ago
May be software programmers work is more similar to how mathematicians work, rather than of engineers, though with a more imperative, procedural bent.
Rury 7y ago
I always thought engineering was simply applied math and science. You're not researching and testing new theory explaining the nature behind how phenomena work, or developing new mathematical techniques, that's for scientists and mathematicians. Rather engineers take their work, and apply it to invent things and solve problems. As so, I'd consider software development can qualify as engineering. If you're taking the work of computer scientists and mathematicians (or any other science fields) and applying it to software, it fits the definition. If you're just laying code to a given spec without much more thought, then you're just a programmer/developer...

cameronbrown 7y ago

It can be in some circumstances.. I think that the engineering mindset (adherence to the scientific method, evidence based decisions, planning for the future etc..) is one that is definitely shared by both groups at least. But you can absolutely get away with building software without proper engineering standards. It's not so easy to build bridges that way.

klowner 7y ago
Too many companies taking a "McMansion" approach to software and we wonder why everything is constantly broken.
1234_UUUU_99 7y ago
> It's not so easy to build bridges that way. I'd wager that it is but the stakes for failure are too high to wing it (hopefully). Imagine: We want to build a bridge that spans N meters. We don't know how to do it but we can go look at an existing bridge and copy it. We might not understand metallurgy / physics that well, but we talk to suppliers and ask for "steel of this shape and size". Ditto cables, concrete and everything else. Probably, provided we're not scaling up or changing the design too much, it would work just fine.
radicalbyte 7y ago
You have cowboy builders in the "engineering" area too. For some reason in software we seem to be more accepting of it.
- cameronbrown 7y ago
  For most non-engineers (either kind), engineering is just a means to an end, i.e. don't care about the finer details as long as it works. When software goes wrong, the effects are more often than not, intangible. When mechanical engineering or electrical engineering goes wrong, people can die. Software can obviously kill people too, it just happens less. Then industry practices revert to the mean due to cost cutting.