5 ms·

I grew up in a country that joined the EU and boomed afterwards. We had the same crisis and probably even worse austerity measures than Greece after the 2008 cr

I grew up in a country that joined the EU and boomed afterwards. We had the same crisis and probably even worse austerity measures than Greece after the 2008 crisis and some politicians are still in a tough spot until this day. In all aspects, Greece was in much better shape before the 2008 crisis than Lithuania. Now Lithuania has a higher GDP per capita than Greece. How did that happen? But never once, anyone in public considered on "asking on forgiving on our debts". It really makes me wonder the audacity of the people that claim it's the Eurogroups fault that they have lent money to Greece. It really makes a difference, when people own up to their future.

leto_ii 7y ago
> Greece was in much better shape before the 2008 crisis than Lithuania. Now Lithuania has a higher GDP per capita than Greece Shouldn't this actually make you wonder whether the Greek austerity was a good idea? > It really makes a difference, when people own up to their future. Why do you think it makes sense to hold millions accountable directly for the corrupt dealings of a few members of a country's elite (and of a few foreign bankers, politicians etc.)?
- tasubotadas 7y ago
  >Why do you think it makes sense to hold millions accountable directly for the corrupt dealings of a few members of a country's elite (and of a few foreign bankers, politicians etc.)? That's how democracy works. If you are not happy with your current government, elect the one you are happy with. Over time, I've found that the elected government really does represent the general population.
  - leto_ii 7y ago
    In representative democracies people don't really have much control over the day to day operations of the government. They are also often deliberately kept in the dark about the decisions being made. Even if they had the necessary information available, it would be almost impossible to keep up with everything since people have other more important things to do to e.g. work. > Over time, I've found that the elected government really does represent the general population. I don't know where this happens, but if/when it does it's more of a fortunate accident than the default outcome.
    - kriberg 7y ago
      Should the population of other countries be held accountable for Greeks disinterest in their own democracy?
      - atmosx 7y ago
        It's not like other countries are not affected, all over Europe alt-right is thriving because of austerity. The EU is disintegrating. Greece is the weakest link. So, what you call "Greeks disinterest in their own democracy" I call "canary".
      - odshoifsdhfs 7y ago
        No, but the banks that had no problem lending the money and collecting the interest, yes. That is the whole purpose of interest. Or you are telling me that the banks that lent billions, knew even less than the greek citizens?
        kriberg 7y ago
        No doubt, both lenders and borrowers must share blame. This is a sovereign nation though, it should be expected to operate with sound fiscal policies and banks shouldn't base lending on political programs. Lest we let banks regulate policy through their willingness to lend money. That's the situation we did get in the end though, with austerity through blackmail. Greeks are now furious at the German government for protecting their financial institutions from collapse. While it might be more apt to be furious at those whom voted for policies not fiscally sound. So what is the way forward? Certainly not what the IMF suggested at the time, as they as much have admitted to. But is Varoufakis pointlessly relegislating that decision or is he trying to sell a book?
hardlianotion 7y ago
Varoufakis, as far as I remember, was not asking for debt forgiveness.
mempko 7y ago
Counterexample. After WW2 Germany asked US and other creditors to forgive it's debts because otherwise they won't be able to grow their economy and were at risk of further becoming under the influence of the USSR. You know what the creditors did? They forgave Germany's debts. So the question is, when Greece made the same argument to Germany, that it can't grow their economy under austerity, why did the Germans refuse to forgive its debts? You blame the Greek people but it was the German and French banks that lent Greece the money. Why didn't the banks do their du-diligence and refuse to give the loans? So when Greece got the bailout money, that money went straight back into the German and French banks and left the Greek people holding the bag.

leto_ii 7y ago

> Greece was in much better shape before the 2008 crisis than Lithuania. Now Lithuania has a higher GDP per capita than Greece Shouldn't this actually make you wonder whether the Greek austerity was a good idea? > It really makes a difference, when people own up to their future. Why do you think it makes sense to hold millions accountable directly for the corrupt dealings of a few members of a country's elite (and of a few foreign bankers, politicians etc.)?

tasubotadas 7y ago
>Why do you think it makes sense to hold millions accountable directly for the corrupt dealings of a few members of a country's elite (and of a few foreign bankers, politicians etc.)? That's how democracy works. If you are not happy with your current government, elect the one you are happy with. Over time, I've found that the elected government really does represent the general population.
- leto_ii 7y ago
  In representative democracies people don't really have much control over the day to day operations of the government. They are also often deliberately kept in the dark about the decisions being made. Even if they had the necessary information available, it would be almost impossible to keep up with everything since people have other more important things to do to e.g. work. > Over time, I've found that the elected government really does represent the general population. I don't know where this happens, but if/when it does it's more of a fortunate accident than the default outcome.
  - kriberg 7y ago
    Should the population of other countries be held accountable for Greeks disinterest in their own democracy?
    - atmosx 7y ago
      It's not like other countries are not affected, all over Europe alt-right is thriving because of austerity. The EU is disintegrating. Greece is the weakest link. So, what you call "Greeks disinterest in their own democracy" I call "canary".
    - odshoifsdhfs 7y ago
      No, but the banks that had no problem lending the money and collecting the interest, yes. That is the whole purpose of interest. Or you are telling me that the banks that lent billions, knew even less than the greek citizens?
      - kriberg 7y ago
        No doubt, both lenders and borrowers must share blame. This is a sovereign nation though, it should be expected to operate with sound fiscal policies and banks shouldn't base lending on political programs. Lest we let banks regulate policy through their willingness to lend money. That's the situation we did get in the end though, with austerity through blackmail. Greeks are now furious at the German government for protecting their financial institutions from collapse. While it might be more apt to be furious at those whom voted for policies not fiscally sound. So what is the way forward? Certainly not what the IMF suggested at the time, as they as much have admitted to. But is Varoufakis pointlessly relegislating that decision or is he trying to sell a book?

hardlianotion 7y ago

Varoufakis, as far as I remember, was not asking for debt forgiveness.

mempko 7y ago

Counterexample. After WW2 Germany asked US and other creditors to forgive it's debts because otherwise they won't be able to grow their economy and were at risk of further becoming under the influence of the USSR. You know what the creditors did? They forgave Germany's debts. So the question is, when Greece made the same argument to Germany, that it can't grow their economy under austerity, why did the Germans refuse to forgive its debts? You blame the Greek people but it was the German and French banks that lent Greece the money. Why didn't the banks do their du-diligence and refuse to give the loans? So when Greece got the bailout money, that money went straight back into the German and French banks and left the Greek people holding the bag.