7 ms·

what happened afterwards to Greece is also pretty shitty

tasubotadas 7y ago
What happened? It's a success story. I get that people do not like the fact that they can't retire now at 55yo or that they had to privatize a few big national companies, but I think it's a perfect example where the doctor knows better than the patient what's best for them.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- jokoon 7y ago
  Amputating a limb or surviving chemotherapy is hardly a success story, especially when the operation is hardly over yet. What happened to greece was a disaster. Of course it required to be handled by adults, and they did what was necessary. But the whole thing is hardly "a success story".
- odshoifsdhfs 7y ago
  do you live in greece by chance? I don't, but the friends I have there don't consider it a success story. Maybe it is nice they got a surplus now (after 10 years!) but during those 10 years a lot of suffering and pain to their population. Even the IMF has admitted it was a bad prescription (1) [1] https://www.bbc.com/news/business-22791248 https://www.bbc.com/news/business-22791248
- alexsideris 7y ago
  > It's a success story. Haha! That was a good one.
  - Ygg2 7y ago
    Hey man, it was a success story. For Germany. First their banks are salvaged. Then they get infusion of cheap Greek labor. It's a win-win.
- jnmandal 7y ago
  Na malaka
  - tasubotadas 7y ago
    That's very mature of you.
    - jnmandal 7y ago
      Like your positive characterization of millions of peoples' economic misfortune wasnt cheap and childish? Reading your insensitive comment probably ruined a few Greeks' day. I think you can handle a little Hellenic criticism.
- cm2187 7y ago
  Or a dog who doesn't understand why the vet tortures him!
  - hardlianotion 7y ago
    That's just an insult.
    - cm2187 7y ago
      No it's an analogy for a population who didn't see fit to pay their taxes, have a functioning state, who thought it was a good idea to adopt a foreign currency when it didn't make sense economically, and doesn't understand why they are forced to make economic sacrifices to correct the situation. I think the accusation of ignorance is kinder than the alternative ("let's not pay our taxes, the germans will pay for us").
      - dependenttypes 7y ago
        > who didn't see fit to pay their taxes With all the corruption going around I would not blame them. (even without it I would not blame them regardless. There are many people all over the world -including me- who consider taxes thievery) Anyway, please do correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't it only the rich/rich companies that did that? Similarly to how Amazon, Google, or Apple for example pay almost no tax. > who thought it was a good idea to adopt a foreign currency when it didn't make sense economically Do you have a citation for this? As far as I know the Greek population was not asked about it.
        cm2187 7y ago
        As far as I am aware, tax fraud was (and probably still is) endemic in Greece. If you like to think it is just Amazon not paying its taxes, believe what you want. If you go see a doctor in Greece he will ask for cash. What do you mean the population wasn't asked? It's a democracy. The population elects polititians that vote laws and make decisions. Like in almost every country and for almost every topic. If the greeks didn't care about what their polititians did, good for them. But they aren't children. They are a sovereign democracy. They own the consequences.
- wfn 7y ago
  What success story. The structural effects of the austerity which everyone including IMF admits was much too hard on GDP will be felt, and Greece will be screwed for many years to come. See for example wiki article, e.g. section "Effects of applied programmes on the severity of the debt crisis and the IMF's apology": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_government-debt_crisis#Effects_of_applied_programmes_on_the_severity_of_the_debt_crisis_and_the_IMF's_apology https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_government-debt_crisis#E...
- sykick 7y ago
  My understanding of the situation is that German and French banks flooded Greece with easy credit. And as it always happens under such circumstances people/corporations/governments borrowed heavily and when the crisis hit in 2009 they couldn’t repay. All of the so called bailouts have been aimed at making sure French and German banks didn’t suffer and the ones who did suffer have been the Greek people with the exception of the ruling class. Loans are a two party relationship and people tend to view the borrower more harshly than the lender. Lenders tend to get bailed out and somehow aren’t viewed negatively for their profligate lending. Why is it only the borrowers that suffer?
  - arethuza 7y ago
    Varoufakis also mentions in his books that German reparation payments to Greece after WW2 were conveniently cancelled by the Western allies when they needed (West) Germany onside to face the Soviets. https://www.euronews.com/2018/10/10/greece-to-renew-call-for-germany-to-pay-279-billion-in-wwii-reparations https://www.euronews.com/2018/10/10/greece-to-renew-call-for...
    - iSnow 7y ago
      Pretty much any and all reparations were cancelled for Western Germany and today's Germany by continuation. It was a mix of "we need Germany now" and the less than stellar experiences with reparations after WW I.
      - Aeolos 7y ago
        Outside the reparations question, Germany forced Greece to provide loans during the '40s occupation. Those loans are not reparations, were never cancelled and, due to continuity of government, are still owed by Germany to Greece. Debts must be paid after all.
  - xkemp 7y ago
    That's an extremely one-sided point-of-view. The net effect of the whole saga was Greece getting to spend a lot of money in the 90s and 2000s, and the stronger countries of the Eurogroup ending up paying for (at least part) of that. Focussing on these countries' motivation is somewhat useless speculation, and arguably unfair if you manage to twist it so far around the people paying end up as the bad guys, and the people spending as the victims. In any case: French and German banks could have absorbed a Greek default, although it would have been painful. Because these banks held only part of the debt[0], it would have always been cheaper to make them whole again and tell Greece to take a hike. Considering a decade has passed and some things happen, one might also want to reevaluate the motivations ascribed to, for example, Angela Merkel. Does she still strike people as incapable of aiming higher than just immediate parochial needs? [0]: around 30% IIRC, can't be bothered to look this stuff up again ten years later)
- lucianoq 7y ago
  Retirement age in Greece is today and was in 2011 higher than in Germany. Using some anecdotes and guess for aggregate data is bad induction. "privatize" means that today all the Greek airports are owned by German companies. Is it legit to suppose there was a slight conflict of interest between the "doctor" and the "patient"? I mean, would you trust your doctor if he gains on your death?
  - tasubotadas 7y ago
    Really? "Like many EU countries, the general retirement age in Greece is 65, although the actual average is about 61. However, the deeply fragmented system also provides for early retirement – as early as 55 for men and 50 for women – in many professions classified as unhealthy." 55 and 50! https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/greece-to-call-time-on-cushy-pension-deals-for-unhealthy-jobs-1978789.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/greece-to-ca...
    - leto_ii 7y ago
      Conveniently, Greece is just below Germany in the table, making for easy comparison: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retirement_age#Retirement_age_by_country_and_region https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retirement_age#Retirement_age_... Regarding early retirement, I'm sure this is the case in many "industrious" countries too. You probably don't want 65 year olds running around in combat boots with a machine gun and 20kg of supplies on their back.
      - kriberg 7y ago
        But Germany would afford a low retirement age, while Greece could not. It is an unfair comparison, as not all other facts are equal.
    - lucianoq 7y ago
      Average in 2011 was 61,9 yo for Greece and 61,5 yo for Germany. This is an average between all the jobs, classified unhealthy and not. But although it was less than Germany, let's say 60 or 59 or even 55: 1) lenders knew it, so it's also their fault on not weighting the risk well or not asking for an higher interest rate or avoiding giving them money at all. To check is their responsibility. 2) IMF decisions brought an increase in suicide rate and children mortality rate. Are the lenders allowed to bring death to the borrowers? Is this illegal for the mafia but allowed for IMF/ECB/EC?
- bobcostas55 7y ago
  Greek GDP is still 40% below 2008. Almost no serious reforms were passed. Greece did the largest default in history and somehow still ended up with 181% dept/gdp with absolutely nothing to show for it, the Troika just continued funding the kleptocracy.

What happened? It's a success story. I get that people do not like the fact that they can't retire now at 55yo or that they had to privatize a few big national companies, but I think it's a perfect example where the doctor knows better than the patient what's best for them.

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
jokoon 7y ago
Amputating a limb or surviving chemotherapy is hardly a success story, especially when the operation is hardly over yet. What happened to greece was a disaster. Of course it required to be handled by adults, and they did what was necessary. But the whole thing is hardly "a success story".
odshoifsdhfs 7y ago
do you live in greece by chance? I don't, but the friends I have there don't consider it a success story. Maybe it is nice they got a surplus now (after 10 years!) but during those 10 years a lot of suffering and pain to their population. Even the IMF has admitted it was a bad prescription (1) [1] https://www.bbc.com/news/business-22791248 https://www.bbc.com/news/business-22791248
alexsideris 7y ago
> It's a success story. Haha! That was a good one.
- Ygg2 7y ago
  Hey man, it was a success story. For Germany. First their banks are salvaged. Then they get infusion of cheap Greek labor. It's a win-win.
jnmandal 7y ago
Na malaka
- tasubotadas 7y ago
  That's very mature of you.
  - jnmandal 7y ago
    Like your positive characterization of millions of peoples' economic misfortune wasnt cheap and childish? Reading your insensitive comment probably ruined a few Greeks' day. I think you can handle a little Hellenic criticism.
cm2187 7y ago
Or a dog who doesn't understand why the vet tortures him!
- hardlianotion 7y ago
  That's just an insult.
  - cm2187 7y ago
    No it's an analogy for a population who didn't see fit to pay their taxes, have a functioning state, who thought it was a good idea to adopt a foreign currency when it didn't make sense economically, and doesn't understand why they are forced to make economic sacrifices to correct the situation. I think the accusation of ignorance is kinder than the alternative ("let's not pay our taxes, the germans will pay for us").
    - dependenttypes 7y ago
      > who didn't see fit to pay their taxes With all the corruption going around I would not blame them. (even without it I would not blame them regardless. There are many people all over the world -including me- who consider taxes thievery) Anyway, please do correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't it only the rich/rich companies that did that? Similarly to how Amazon, Google, or Apple for example pay almost no tax. > who thought it was a good idea to adopt a foreign currency when it didn't make sense economically Do you have a citation for this? As far as I know the Greek population was not asked about it.
      - cm2187 7y ago
        As far as I am aware, tax fraud was (and probably still is) endemic in Greece. If you like to think it is just Amazon not paying its taxes, believe what you want. If you go see a doctor in Greece he will ask for cash. What do you mean the population wasn't asked? It's a democracy. The population elects polititians that vote laws and make decisions. Like in almost every country and for almost every topic. If the greeks didn't care about what their polititians did, good for them. But they aren't children. They are a sovereign democracy. They own the consequences.
wfn 7y ago
What success story. The structural effects of the austerity which everyone including IMF admits was much too hard on GDP will be felt, and Greece will be screwed for many years to come. See for example wiki article, e.g. section "Effects of applied programmes on the severity of the debt crisis and the IMF's apology": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_government-debt_crisis#Effects_of_applied_programmes_on_the_severity_of_the_debt_crisis_and_the_IMF's_apology https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_government-debt_crisis#E...
sykick 7y ago
My understanding of the situation is that German and French banks flooded Greece with easy credit. And as it always happens under such circumstances people/corporations/governments borrowed heavily and when the crisis hit in 2009 they couldn’t repay. All of the so called bailouts have been aimed at making sure French and German banks didn’t suffer and the ones who did suffer have been the Greek people with the exception of the ruling class. Loans are a two party relationship and people tend to view the borrower more harshly than the lender. Lenders tend to get bailed out and somehow aren’t viewed negatively for their profligate lending. Why is it only the borrowers that suffer?
- arethuza 7y ago
  Varoufakis also mentions in his books that German reparation payments to Greece after WW2 were conveniently cancelled by the Western allies when they needed (West) Germany onside to face the Soviets. https://www.euronews.com/2018/10/10/greece-to-renew-call-for-germany-to-pay-279-billion-in-wwii-reparations https://www.euronews.com/2018/10/10/greece-to-renew-call-for...
  - iSnow 7y ago
    Pretty much any and all reparations were cancelled for Western Germany and today's Germany by continuation. It was a mix of "we need Germany now" and the less than stellar experiences with reparations after WW I.
    - Aeolos 7y ago
      Outside the reparations question, Germany forced Greece to provide loans during the '40s occupation. Those loans are not reparations, were never cancelled and, due to continuity of government, are still owed by Germany to Greece. Debts must be paid after all.
- xkemp 7y ago
  That's an extremely one-sided point-of-view. The net effect of the whole saga was Greece getting to spend a lot of money in the 90s and 2000s, and the stronger countries of the Eurogroup ending up paying for (at least part) of that. Focussing on these countries' motivation is somewhat useless speculation, and arguably unfair if you manage to twist it so far around the people paying end up as the bad guys, and the people spending as the victims. In any case: French and German banks could have absorbed a Greek default, although it would have been painful. Because these banks held only part of the debt[0], it would have always been cheaper to make them whole again and tell Greece to take a hike. Considering a decade has passed and some things happen, one might also want to reevaluate the motivations ascribed to, for example, Angela Merkel. Does she still strike people as incapable of aiming higher than just immediate parochial needs? [0]: around 30% IIRC, can't be bothered to look this stuff up again ten years later)
lucianoq 7y ago
Retirement age in Greece is today and was in 2011 higher than in Germany. Using some anecdotes and guess for aggregate data is bad induction. "privatize" means that today all the Greek airports are owned by German companies. Is it legit to suppose there was a slight conflict of interest between the "doctor" and the "patient"? I mean, would you trust your doctor if he gains on your death?
- tasubotadas 7y ago
  Really? "Like many EU countries, the general retirement age in Greece is 65, although the actual average is about 61. However, the deeply fragmented system also provides for early retirement – as early as 55 for men and 50 for women – in many professions classified as unhealthy." 55 and 50! https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/greece-to-call-time-on-cushy-pension-deals-for-unhealthy-jobs-1978789.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/greece-to-ca...
  - leto_ii 7y ago
    Conveniently, Greece is just below Germany in the table, making for easy comparison: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retirement_age#Retirement_age_by_country_and_region https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retirement_age#Retirement_age_... Regarding early retirement, I'm sure this is the case in many "industrious" countries too. You probably don't want 65 year olds running around in combat boots with a machine gun and 20kg of supplies on their back.
    - kriberg 7y ago
      But Germany would afford a low retirement age, while Greece could not. It is an unfair comparison, as not all other facts are equal.
  - lucianoq 7y ago
    Average in 2011 was 61,9 yo for Greece and 61,5 yo for Germany. This is an average between all the jobs, classified unhealthy and not. But although it was less than Germany, let's say 60 or 59 or even 55: 1) lenders knew it, so it's also their fault on not weighting the risk well or not asking for an higher interest rate or avoiding giving them money at all. To check is their responsibility. 2) IMF decisions brought an increase in suicide rate and children mortality rate. Are the lenders allowed to bring death to the borrowers? Is this illegal for the mafia but allowed for IMF/ECB/EC?
bobcostas55 7y ago
Greek GDP is still 40% below 2008. Almost no serious reforms were passed. Greece did the largest default in history and somehow still ended up with 181% dept/gdp with absolutely nothing to show for it, the Troika just continued funding the kleptocracy.