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I must remember this article the next time some Vim fanboi tries to mansplain to me why vim is better. (Note most seasoned vim users are not in this category...

I must remember this article the next time some Vim fanboi tries to mansplain to me why vim is better. (Note most seasoned vim users are not in this category... But will happily press an emacs user, which I'm not either). I've heard it all before and even done the side by side comparison tests... >15yrs ago. Ultimately, the results of Larry Tesler tests coincides with my own. Thankyou Mr Tesler for No Modes editors!

mc3 7y ago
I think the Vim way is to spend very little time in insert mode, so most of the time you don't have to think because you will be in the other mode. That said give me VSCode anytime!
- polyphonicist 7y ago
  VSCode has a plug-in for Vim keybindings. Does not emulate Vim entirely but good enough to feel at home. Gives you best of both worlds: IDE-like features of VSCode and ergonomic manipulation of code of Vim.
saagarjha 7y ago
> (Note most seasoned vim users are not in this category... But will happily press an emacs user, which I'm not either). I get hate from both sides by using nano :/
- taneq 7y ago
  nano, for when you don't care and just want to edit the damn text file. :D
  - saagarjha 7y ago
    Oh, no, I care very much: I go through great lengths to customize nano to my liking, to the point that I now inject code into it to construct my nanorc on-the-fly in memory for whichever version of nano it's running on: https://github.com/saagarjha/dotfiles/blob/master/fixnano.c https://github.com/saagarjha/dotfiles/blob/master/fixnano.c (did you know that newer versions of nano can format your code and check if it compiles, displaying errors inline?). If I need to edit files and don't have it available I rely on vi being standardized by POSIX: https://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/9699919799/utilities/vi.html https://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/9699919799/utilities/v...
    - taneq 7y ago
      Wow, nano has come a long way from when it was yet another pico (or at least that's how we used it in uni, clearly there's more to it). Also vi being POSIX is awesome, I didn't know that! :)
im3w1l 7y ago
Seemed for a long time everyone were burnt out on editor wars. But I kinda wish they would start again. Maybe competitions would be a good way of finding which is best. But what would the rules be?
- cmroanirgo 7y ago
  I think the world is too polarised to even realistically attempt. Tabs vs space? Auto indent? Supported languages? Colours? Terminal only? Size (file and app) constraints? This is even before we enter discussion on modal or not. I think it more realistic to understand that editors are like neighbourhoods. They come in all different shapes and sizes and each has their own vibe. Some will burn you, some you'll feel welcome in...
polyphonicist 7y ago
Actual quote from the article for context: > Modeless: Computer scientists when writing code typically worked in different modes; you might have an insert mode, a delete mode, or a replace mode. You would first select the mode, then select the point on the screen at which the action was to occur, then perform the action. Tesler, in user experiments, proved that modes were confusing for nonscientific users and championed the “modeless” interface. For non-technical users, sure modeless editing may be better. But for computer scientists, modeful editing may be better. The article mentions modeless editing to be better for no scientific users only, not necessarily for everyone.
- cmroanirgo 7y ago
  Lol. I didn't realise I wasn't technical - but then again my background's only in electronics thru 3d game dev & modelling (90's) thru finance thru embedded. I should probably quit. Also from the article: > “I really didn’t believe in it,” he said. “I thought cursor keys were much better. We literally took people off the streets who had never seen a computer. In three or four minutes they were happily editing away using cursor keys. At that point I was going to show them the mouse and prove that they could select text faster than with the cursor keys. Then I was going to show that they didn’t like it. “It backfired. Just because he thought a way was the way, Mr Tesler was willing to correct himself of his presuppositions based on real world testing.
  - sarakayakomzin 7y ago
    > Lol. I didn't realise I wasn't technical - but then again my background's only in electronics thru 3d game dev & modelling (90's) thru finance thru embedded. I should probably quit. yes, this statement is clearly about you specifically.
- TuringTest 7y ago
  > But for computer scientists, modeful editing may be better. The article mentions modeless editing to be better for no scientific users only, not necessarily for everyone. That's why they kept on investigating, and concluded that modes are bad for anyone; as long as they are human, using modes increase their rates of error. Jef Raskin went so far as to invent quasimodes, to get the benefits of modal interfaces without the burden on short-term memory. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mode_(user_interface)#Quasimodes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mode_(user_interface)#Quasimod...)

mc3 7y ago

I think the Vim way is to spend very little time in insert mode, so most of the time you don't have to think because you will be in the other mode. That said give me VSCode anytime!

polyphonicist 7y ago
VSCode has a plug-in for Vim keybindings. Does not emulate Vim entirely but good enough to feel at home. Gives you best of both worlds: IDE-like features of VSCode and ergonomic manipulation of code of Vim.

saagarjha 7y ago

> (Note most seasoned vim users are not in this category... But will happily press an emacs user, which I'm not either). I get hate from both sides by using nano :/

taneq 7y ago
nano, for when you don't care and just want to edit the damn text file. :D
- saagarjha 7y ago
  Oh, no, I care very much: I go through great lengths to customize nano to my liking, to the point that I now inject code into it to construct my nanorc on-the-fly in memory for whichever version of nano it's running on: https://github.com/saagarjha/dotfiles/blob/master/fixnano.c https://github.com/saagarjha/dotfiles/blob/master/fixnano.c (did you know that newer versions of nano can format your code and check if it compiles, displaying errors inline?). If I need to edit files and don't have it available I rely on vi being standardized by POSIX: https://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/9699919799/utilities/vi.html https://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/9699919799/utilities/v...
  - taneq 7y ago
    Wow, nano has come a long way from when it was yet another pico (or at least that's how we used it in uni, clearly there's more to it). Also vi being POSIX is awesome, I didn't know that! :)

im3w1l 7y ago

Seemed for a long time everyone were burnt out on editor wars. But I kinda wish they would start again. Maybe competitions would be a good way of finding which is best. But what would the rules be?

cmroanirgo 7y ago
I think the world is too polarised to even realistically attempt. Tabs vs space? Auto indent? Supported languages? Colours? Terminal only? Size (file and app) constraints? This is even before we enter discussion on modal or not. I think it more realistic to understand that editors are like neighbourhoods. They come in all different shapes and sizes and each has their own vibe. Some will burn you, some you'll feel welcome in...

polyphonicist 7y ago

Actual quote from the article for context: > Modeless: Computer scientists when writing code typically worked in different modes; you might have an insert mode, a delete mode, or a replace mode. You would first select the mode, then select the point on the screen at which the action was to occur, then perform the action. Tesler, in user experiments, proved that modes were confusing for nonscientific users and championed the “modeless” interface. For non-technical users, sure modeless editing may be better. But for computer scientists, modeful editing may be better. The article mentions modeless editing to be better for no scientific users only, not necessarily for everyone.

cmroanirgo 7y ago
Lol. I didn't realise I wasn't technical - but then again my background's only in electronics thru 3d game dev & modelling (90's) thru finance thru embedded. I should probably quit. Also from the article: > “I really didn’t believe in it,” he said. “I thought cursor keys were much better. We literally took people off the streets who had never seen a computer. In three or four minutes they were happily editing away using cursor keys. At that point I was going to show them the mouse and prove that they could select text faster than with the cursor keys. Then I was going to show that they didn’t like it. “It backfired. Just because he thought a way was the way, Mr Tesler was willing to correct himself of his presuppositions based on real world testing.
- sarakayakomzin 7y ago
  > Lol. I didn't realise I wasn't technical - but then again my background's only in electronics thru 3d game dev & modelling (90's) thru finance thru embedded. I should probably quit. yes, this statement is clearly about you specifically.
TuringTest 7y ago
> But for computer scientists, modeful editing may be better. The article mentions modeless editing to be better for no scientific users only, not necessarily for everyone. That's why they kept on investigating, and concluded that modes are bad for anyone; as long as they are human, using modes increase their rates of error. Jef Raskin went so far as to invent quasimodes, to get the benefits of modal interfaces without the burden on short-term memory. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mode_(user_interface)#Quasimodes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mode_(user_interface)#Quasimod...)