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I'm somewhat shocked that they do they not load those subsidies onto the electricity charge on consumers as a tax and mean those that use more, pay more. That'

by Zenst 7y ago

I'm somewhat shocked that they do they not load those subsidies onto the electricity charge on consumers as a tax and mean those that use more, pay more. That's what they do in the UK, though alas they loaded it onto the standing charge that is a flat rate per day for having a supply. Idealy it should be like personal TAX, you have a certain amount you get without being taxed, then after that you pay X amount until you use another threshold and then the tax upon the unit rate of energy is taxed more. That would be the ideal fair way of doing energy. Certainly would be a socially more acceptable way. Of course you can allocate people a higher initial rate they can use without paying tax upon the charge for things like disabilities, health needs etc. Again, be no simple solution, but working on something that sees it paid for fairly always works out best for all as above all, people love fairness. At least, that is how I'd like things done. But do remember, Germany recently went thru an anti nuclear phase and that forced many coal reactors to carry on longer, so they did need to compensate and a push on solar and wind power was a logical move. How that was subsidies and paid for was and is perhaps an avenue they need to address. All that said, much respect to the people of Germany for responsibly using energy. That has probably done way more than anything to help.

usrusr 7y ago
> alas they loaded it onto the standing charge that is a flat rate per day for having a supply. Not true, source: my electricity bill. A standing charge exists, but the vast majority of what we pay is per kWh. The part that you misunderstood, I think, is that the EEG is fixed per kWh and not per euro paid (just like most of our fuel taxes, even if crude doubles or halves in price our price at the pump only shifts a little). The article was quite misunderstable, bordering on wrong even, in that part because it reads as if market rate had any influence on German electricity bills and only the EEG charge was fixed. In reality, it's impossible for a households to get a contract that follows market rate, you always pay the same per kWh no matter if it's Sunday or Monday, windy or calm. The electricity spot market price is only relevant for utilities and for a few heavy industrial users with special contracts (the kind of heavy use where you'd be mandated to give the utility a heads up before increasing or dropping the load). This will have to change eventually, because load shift is so much mow efficient than storage, but it's difficult to implement because you can't really have both constant rate and variable rate in parallel due to an abundance of bad actors who would have both and ruin the pricing models by opportunistically switching between them.
- Zenst 7y ago
  Yes, thank you for your clarity - I did a bit of digging and found https://www.cleanenergywire.org/factsheets/what-german-households-pay-power https://www.cleanenergywire.org/factsheets/what-german-house... which does seem to clear up many aspects. I will say, the shift in electric cars and more so the iminante arrival of solid state lithium batteries, distributed and more so, local home storage will start to become and more open avenue. This would be great for flats that can not avail the installation of solar panels and also those that rent (more an aspect in Germany) which are limited. A battery tech that you don't have to worry about exploding and you can literally drive nails into and be safe, will be game changing (not advocating that people drive nails into batteries, more a way to explain how much safer they are). That level of safety will open up the home storage market more as well.
- slashdotdash 7y ago
  > In reality, it's impossible for a households to get a contract that follows market rate, you always pay the same per kWh no matter if it's Sunday or Monday, windy or calm. In the UK you can use the Agile tariff from Octopus Energy (https://octopus.energy/agile/ https://octopus.energy/agile/) which has half hourly dynamic pricing per electricity kWh. The next 24hrs worth of prices are released each day around 4pm and follow market cost. There’s a 12p/kWh surcharge between 4pm and 7pm during peak demand. Used in conjunction with a smart meter it bills per half hour usage and can go negative. Twice in the last two week’s it has gone below zero due to recent storms. It’s a great tariff if you have an electric car to charge in the early hours when prices are cheapest and can reduce usage during the peak three hours. A home battery would also help out as it could be charged during cheap periods and discharged when prices are too high.
  - Zenst 7y ago
    Thank you for that, very very useful and good to see the smart meters with some consumer benefits.
- eisa01 7y ago
  You can switch to Tibber to enjoy spot based pricing We have had that in the Nordics for ages, they are just about to launch in Germany
lispm 7y ago
> I'm somewhat shocked that they do they not load those subsidies onto the electricity charge on consumers as a tax German consumers pay 6.756 cents per kwh EEG tariff.
- Zenst 7y ago
  Aha, I have done a bit more digging into this after my post and found https://www.cleanenergywire.org/factsheets/what-german-households-pay-power https://www.cleanenergywire.org/factsheets/what-german-house... which seems to clear up much. Thank you for putting me on the right track.
raxxorrax 7y ago
> I'm somewhat shocked that they do they not load those subsidies onto the electricity charge on consumers as a tax They do both. The fixed amount is (officially) for infrastructure improvements, but there is an additional tax for consumption per kWh. > Of course you can allocate people a higher initial rate they can use without paying tax upon the charge for things like disabilities, health needs etc Probably too burocratic and inefficient in practice. Energy just has to be affordable for any household.

by Zenst 7y ago

usrusr 7y ago

> alas they loaded it onto the standing charge that is a flat rate per day for having a supply. Not true, source: my electricity bill. A standing charge exists, but the vast majority of what we pay is per kWh. The part that you misunderstood, I think, is that the EEG is fixed per kWh and not per euro paid (just like most of our fuel taxes, even if crude doubles or halves in price our price at the pump only shifts a little). The article was quite misunderstable, bordering on wrong even, in that part because it reads as if market rate had any influence on German electricity bills and only the EEG charge was fixed. In reality, it's impossible for a households to get a contract that follows market rate, you always pay the same per kWh no matter if it's Sunday or Monday, windy or calm. The electricity spot market price is only relevant for utilities and for a few heavy industrial users with special contracts (the kind of heavy use where you'd be mandated to give the utility a heads up before increasing or dropping the load). This will have to change eventually, because load shift is so much mow efficient than storage, but it's difficult to implement because you can't really have both constant rate and variable rate in parallel due to an abundance of bad actors who would have both and ruin the pricing models by opportunistically switching between them.

Zenst 7y ago
Yes, thank you for your clarity - I did a bit of digging and found https://www.cleanenergywire.org/factsheets/what-german-households-pay-power https://www.cleanenergywire.org/factsheets/what-german-house... which does seem to clear up many aspects. I will say, the shift in electric cars and more so the iminante arrival of solid state lithium batteries, distributed and more so, local home storage will start to become and more open avenue. This would be great for flats that can not avail the installation of solar panels and also those that rent (more an aspect in Germany) which are limited. A battery tech that you don't have to worry about exploding and you can literally drive nails into and be safe, will be game changing (not advocating that people drive nails into batteries, more a way to explain how much safer they are). That level of safety will open up the home storage market more as well.
slashdotdash 7y ago
> In reality, it's impossible for a households to get a contract that follows market rate, you always pay the same per kWh no matter if it's Sunday or Monday, windy or calm. In the UK you can use the Agile tariff from Octopus Energy (https://octopus.energy/agile/ https://octopus.energy/agile/) which has half hourly dynamic pricing per electricity kWh. The next 24hrs worth of prices are released each day around 4pm and follow market cost. There’s a 12p/kWh surcharge between 4pm and 7pm during peak demand. Used in conjunction with a smart meter it bills per half hour usage and can go negative. Twice in the last two week’s it has gone below zero due to recent storms. It’s a great tariff if you have an electric car to charge in the early hours when prices are cheapest and can reduce usage during the peak three hours. A home battery would also help out as it could be charged during cheap periods and discharged when prices are too high.
- Zenst 7y ago
  Thank you for that, very very useful and good to see the smart meters with some consumer benefits.
eisa01 7y ago
You can switch to Tibber to enjoy spot based pricing We have had that in the Nordics for ages, they are just about to launch in Germany

lispm 7y ago

> I'm somewhat shocked that they do they not load those subsidies onto the electricity charge on consumers as a tax German consumers pay 6.756 cents per kwh EEG tariff.

Zenst 7y ago
Aha, I have done a bit more digging into this after my post and found https://www.cleanenergywire.org/factsheets/what-german-households-pay-power https://www.cleanenergywire.org/factsheets/what-german-house... which seems to clear up much. Thank you for putting me on the right track.

raxxorrax 7y ago

> I'm somewhat shocked that they do they not load those subsidies onto the electricity charge on consumers as a tax They do both. The fixed amount is (officially) for infrastructure improvements, but there is an additional tax for consumption per kWh. > Of course you can allocate people a higher initial rate they can use without paying tax upon the charge for things like disabilities, health needs etc Probably too burocratic and inefficient in practice. Energy just has to be affordable for any household.