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> Primarily due to primary school start times, bussing schedules, and athletics. Not only that. Starting late also creates a problem for parents. Parents need

> Primarily due to primary school start times, bussing schedules, and athletics. Not only that. Starting late also creates a problem for parents. Parents need to go to work. If kids take bus, kids usually need to board on the school bus before parents leave home. If parents drive kids to school, then the late school start time will become totally unacceptable for many parents because of the conflict with their work start time.

germinalphrase 7y ago
Absolutely true. Cynics often jib that school is glorified daycare, but it’s very real that without schools many people would simply be unable to work. Inflexibility around parent work schedules is a significant factor in why later start times is difficult.
toohotatopic 7y ago
This is the primary reason for an early start. Primary school, bussing schedules and athletics can shift. This leaves the question: why does work start so early? If children benefit from sleeping longer, so should adults.
- Youden 7y ago
  > If children benefit from sleeping longer, so should adults. People at different ages require different amounts of sleep in order to be healthy. Adults require less than children [0]. Also, one of the big problems for teenagers (the subject of the article) is that their circadian rhythm is out of phase from adults, shifted later about 2 hours [1]. Early start times don't just reduce sleep, they're also just the wrong time of day. Telling a teen to wake up at 7am is like telling an adult to wake up at 5am. [0]: https://www.cdc.gov/features/sleep/index.html https://www.cdc.gov/features/sleep/index.html [1]: https://www.uclahealth.org/sleepcenter/sleep-and-teens https://www.uclahealth.org/sleepcenter/sleep-and-teens
  - James_Henry 7y ago
    It probably would be healthier for a lot of adults. They even find that because of set work start times, the average adult in the western edge of a time zone ends up sleeping less than the one in the eastern edge.
- testis321 7y ago
  > This leaves the question: why does work start so early? If children benefit from sleeping longer, so should adults. If you work 7-15h (3pm american), you still have some daylight time left at home, after work so you can do other, non-work stuff that requires daylight. If you sleep until 9 and work 10-18h, you get zero off-work daylight for most of the year.
commandlinefan 7y ago
Yeah, it’s a nice thought, but completely unworkable. I live 0.99 miles (seriously!) from my kids’ school. The minimum bus distance in 1 mile - so they won’t send buses to pick up my kids. That means that they have to walk 0.99 miles, sometimes in the rain, sometimes in the cold, across three fairly busy intersections, or I have to drive them. My commute is about an hour long (longer because I’m driving at the worst possible time), so I’m getting into work later than everybody else as it is.
- DiffEq 7y ago
  Is there a reason they can not walk to school? It doesn't really take long to walk a mile and it is very good for them mentally to get a walk in before and after school anyway. There may be times when inclement weather might make it a little miserable but proper clothes can address that in all but the most extreme cases. I grew up in MT and had to walk about a mile to my elementary school and almost a mile to my High School bus stop. I enjoyed those walks and the time to think it afforded.
  - commandlinefan 7y ago
    Well, if school didn't start until 9 AM, I'd have to, but I'd feel horrible about it.
    - bashinator 7y ago
      Do you live in a particularly dangerous area or something? I walked (later biked) a mile to school a few times a week starting some time in elementary school.
  - LaLaLand122 7y ago
    In my country there is no really the concept of the "school bus". Google Maps says I walked exactly 1.0 miles... climbing a mountain, because my school was in the freaking top of a mountain. In some parts climbs were so steep that nowadays there are escalators on the streets. I did that from 4 to 18 yo. It did never bother me, sometimes I literally did the whole way back running non-stop for fun, it was kind of like a roller coaster. But: - Weather was generally good - I obviously didn't walk alone when I was 4 yo. We don't even know the age of those kids. Maybe they will walk to school alone... when they are older.
James_Henry 7y ago
This is, nowadays, for most parents, because work and school schedules have fallen into a sort equilibrium. If school started later, many work places would be forced to be accommodating. The ones that wouldn't be forced are mostly already an issue for parents with kids in school.
chrisseaton 7y ago
> kids usually need to board on the school bus before parents leave home Why’s that?
- ydnaclementine 7y ago
  To ensure your single digit aged child reaches the bus. Good luck trying to explain what happened if they don’t. Pretty sure Otto Mann doesn’t know if you’re child is supposed to go to school today or not (scheduled absence), so the driver can’t know to expect your child or not
  - qball 7y ago
    >To ensure your single digit aged child reaches the bus. For what it's worth, this is a uniquely American problem; schoolchildren in Europe and Asia have no problems taking public transit while being single-digit age. Of course, those places haven't bowed to irrational paranoia like North American countries do, but the fact remains that the assumption that children aren't capable of getting to a bus stop safely is a falsehood that fortunately only North American societies have chosen to embrace. It's stupid, but taking that on requires people to stop listening to a certain loud minority, so it's hard to break, though some states (like Utah) have made legal inroads against them.
    - NeoBasilisk 7y ago
      Yeah, I used to walk to school when I was 7. It was only about 4 blocks away, and my mom told me to never deviate from the route she laid out for me, but it wasn't a bit deal.
    - selestify 7y ago
      Who is this loud minority that’s against young children walking alone?
      - crooked-v 7y ago
        Some quick examples: https://www.cnn.com/2014/07/31/living/florida-mom-arrested-son-park/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2014/07/31/living/florida-mom-arrested-s... https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2015/04/13/parents-investigated-letting-children-walk-alone/25700823/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2015/04/13/parent... https://people.com/parents/mom-investigated-dcfs-letting-daughter-walk-dog-alone-wilmette/ https://people.com/parents/mom-investigated-dcfs-letting-dau... https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2014/07/arrested-for-letting-a-9-year-old-play-at-the-park-alone/374436/ https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2014/07/arreste...
dragonsky67 7y ago
Hang on, Arn't we talking about High School students? Surely they are capable of getting themselves to the bus stop without mum or dad holding their hands?
- ngngngng 7y ago
  I was perfectly capable, but my parents weren't willing to let me transport myself anywhere until I was 18, then I was allowed to take the bus and I got a car. I'm determined to let my toddler be independent as he grows, but when I talk to other parents about this, most are convinced that if I let them out of my sight they'll be raped and murdered immediately.

germinalphrase 7y ago

Absolutely true. Cynics often jib that school is glorified daycare, but it’s very real that without schools many people would simply be unable to work. Inflexibility around parent work schedules is a significant factor in why later start times is difficult.

toohotatopic 7y ago

This is the primary reason for an early start. Primary school, bussing schedules and athletics can shift. This leaves the question: why does work start so early? If children benefit from sleeping longer, so should adults.

Youden 7y ago
> If children benefit from sleeping longer, so should adults. People at different ages require different amounts of sleep in order to be healthy. Adults require less than children [0]. Also, one of the big problems for teenagers (the subject of the article) is that their circadian rhythm is out of phase from adults, shifted later about 2 hours [1]. Early start times don't just reduce sleep, they're also just the wrong time of day. Telling a teen to wake up at 7am is like telling an adult to wake up at 5am. [0]: https://www.cdc.gov/features/sleep/index.html https://www.cdc.gov/features/sleep/index.html [1]: https://www.uclahealth.org/sleepcenter/sleep-and-teens https://www.uclahealth.org/sleepcenter/sleep-and-teens
- James_Henry 7y ago
  It probably would be healthier for a lot of adults. They even find that because of set work start times, the average adult in the western edge of a time zone ends up sleeping less than the one in the eastern edge.
testis321 7y ago
> This leaves the question: why does work start so early? If children benefit from sleeping longer, so should adults. If you work 7-15h (3pm american), you still have some daylight time left at home, after work so you can do other, non-work stuff that requires daylight. If you sleep until 9 and work 10-18h, you get zero off-work daylight for most of the year.

commandlinefan 7y ago

Yeah, it’s a nice thought, but completely unworkable. I live 0.99 miles (seriously!) from my kids’ school. The minimum bus distance in 1 mile - so they won’t send buses to pick up my kids. That means that they have to walk 0.99 miles, sometimes in the rain, sometimes in the cold, across three fairly busy intersections, or I have to drive them. My commute is about an hour long (longer because I’m driving at the worst possible time), so I’m getting into work later than everybody else as it is.

DiffEq 7y ago
Is there a reason they can not walk to school? It doesn't really take long to walk a mile and it is very good for them mentally to get a walk in before and after school anyway. There may be times when inclement weather might make it a little miserable but proper clothes can address that in all but the most extreme cases. I grew up in MT and had to walk about a mile to my elementary school and almost a mile to my High School bus stop. I enjoyed those walks and the time to think it afforded.
- commandlinefan 7y ago
  Well, if school didn't start until 9 AM, I'd have to, but I'd feel horrible about it.
  - bashinator 7y ago
    Do you live in a particularly dangerous area or something? I walked (later biked) a mile to school a few times a week starting some time in elementary school.
- LaLaLand122 7y ago
  In my country there is no really the concept of the "school bus". Google Maps says I walked exactly 1.0 miles... climbing a mountain, because my school was in the freaking top of a mountain. In some parts climbs were so steep that nowadays there are escalators on the streets. I did that from 4 to 18 yo. It did never bother me, sometimes I literally did the whole way back running non-stop for fun, it was kind of like a roller coaster. But: - Weather was generally good - I obviously didn't walk alone when I was 4 yo. We don't even know the age of those kids. Maybe they will walk to school alone... when they are older.

James_Henry 7y ago

This is, nowadays, for most parents, because work and school schedules have fallen into a sort equilibrium. If school started later, many work places would be forced to be accommodating. The ones that wouldn't be forced are mostly already an issue for parents with kids in school.

chrisseaton 7y ago

> kids usually need to board on the school bus before parents leave home Why’s that?

ydnaclementine 7y ago
To ensure your single digit aged child reaches the bus. Good luck trying to explain what happened if they don’t. Pretty sure Otto Mann doesn’t know if you’re child is supposed to go to school today or not (scheduled absence), so the driver can’t know to expect your child or not
- qball 7y ago
  >To ensure your single digit aged child reaches the bus. For what it's worth, this is a uniquely American problem; schoolchildren in Europe and Asia have no problems taking public transit while being single-digit age. Of course, those places haven't bowed to irrational paranoia like North American countries do, but the fact remains that the assumption that children aren't capable of getting to a bus stop safely is a falsehood that fortunately only North American societies have chosen to embrace. It's stupid, but taking that on requires people to stop listening to a certain loud minority, so it's hard to break, though some states (like Utah) have made legal inroads against them.
  - NeoBasilisk 7y ago
    Yeah, I used to walk to school when I was 7. It was only about 4 blocks away, and my mom told me to never deviate from the route she laid out for me, but it wasn't a bit deal.
  - selestify 7y ago
    Who is this loud minority that’s against young children walking alone?
    - crooked-v 7y ago
      Some quick examples: https://www.cnn.com/2014/07/31/living/florida-mom-arrested-son-park/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2014/07/31/living/florida-mom-arrested-s... https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2015/04/13/parents-investigated-letting-children-walk-alone/25700823/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2015/04/13/parent... https://people.com/parents/mom-investigated-dcfs-letting-daughter-walk-dog-alone-wilmette/ https://people.com/parents/mom-investigated-dcfs-letting-dau... https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2014/07/arrested-for-letting-a-9-year-old-play-at-the-park-alone/374436/ https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2014/07/arreste...

dragonsky67 7y ago

Hang on, Arn't we talking about High School students? Surely they are capable of getting themselves to the bus stop without mum or dad holding their hands?

ngngngng 7y ago
I was perfectly capable, but my parents weren't willing to let me transport myself anywhere until I was 18, then I was allowed to take the bus and I got a car. I'm determined to let my toddler be independent as he grows, but when I talk to other parents about this, most are convinced that if I let them out of my sight they'll be raped and murdered immediately.