8 ms·

I was part of the team that founded this, about 10 years ago if memory serves. I'm still loosely involved, though no longer at Google. Inconsolata was one of th

I was part of the team that founded this, about 10 years ago if memory serves. I'm still loosely involved, though no longer at Google. Inconsolata was one of the 20 fonts for the original launch, and we're now in the process of launching it as a variable font, with both width and weight axes. I'm also getting funding from them for Rust-based font tools. Feel free to AMA, though no guarantees I'll have good answers.

dt3ft 7y ago
Was this created in order to track users across different sites or because google wanted to make the world a better place? :)
- raphlinus 7y ago
  The latter.
  - BiteCode_dev 7y ago
    Do you think it's still used for the latter rather than the former now?
    - raphlinus 7y ago
      Heh, that's a better question. I have no reason to believe that Google Fonts are being used to track users, but I don't have hard evidence on this either way. I am deeply concerned about the way the modern Internet is turning into a surveillance machine and its potential for abuse, but if I were evil, I'd probably go after much lower hanging fruit than fonts.
      - BiteCode_dev 7y ago
        Thanks for this honest answer.
      - OrgNet 7y ago
        either way, loading fonts from google for every website is a stupid idea... it is why an extension like decentraleyes is a good idea (because most website don't think about the consequences).
    - ThePhysicist 7y ago
      I think Google might have better ways to track people. Fonts are also cached by CDNs and the local browser so I’m not sure if they provide good tracking data (they get loaded only for the first page visit for example and popular fonts like Open Sans are probably already in your cache when you open a page). If you’re concerned about tracking as a website operator you can simply load the fonts from your own server, most of them can be found on Github and have liberal licenses (I think all fonts on fonts.google.com)
      - WorldMaker 7y ago
        You can even install the fonts locally to your machine and your browser will favor the local copy. There are some tools like Skyfonts that let you install the top X from Google Fonts and it can be a fun way to speed up a lot of the web; with the tradeoff that not a lot of people have the top X installed for useful large versions of X and that becomes its own fingerprint for surveillance software (testing how long text takes to render in an off screen canvas, for instance). It's been suggested that Browsers or Operating Systems choose a useful X value and install the top fonts everywhere like they used to install the classic "core web fonts".
        smichel17 7y ago
        Also there's a addon called "decentraleyes" that will cache fonts, amongst other things. It's one of 3 extensions I install in every browser I'm allowed to. The others are uBlock origin and https everywhere. All 3 have good privacy/security/performance benefits with effectively no breakage, in their default configurations.
        commoner 7y ago
        Decentraleyes is an excellent add-on that improves browsing speed and privacy with no negative side effects. Currently, the only font cached by Decentraleyes is Noto Sans. It also caches Google's Web Font Loader script and many major JavaScript frameworks. https://decentraleyes.org https://decentraleyes.org https://git.synz.io/Synzvato/decentraleyes https://git.synz.io/Synzvato/decentraleyes Web developers who are concerned about privacy exposure from Google Fonts can use google-webfonts-helper to extract the font files and self-host them. https://google-webfonts-helper.herokuapp.com/fonts https://google-webfonts-helper.herokuapp.com/fonts https://github.com/majodev/google-webfonts-helper https://github.com/majodev/google-webfonts-helper
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
adventist 7y ago
Thank you for your service!
rememberlenny 7y ago
I currently work on it as well, so happy to pitch in.
- juandazapata 7y ago
  Does Google use this to fingerprint and track users across different websites?
  - open-source-ux 7y ago
    The Google Font FAQ includes the question: What does using the Google Fonts API mean for the privacy of my users? > "...your requests for fonts are separate from and do not contain any credentials you send to google.com while using other Google services that are authenticated, such as Gmail." >"Google Fonts logs records of the CSS and the font file requests, and access to this data is kept secure." https://developers.google.com/fonts/faq#what_does_using_the_google_fonts_api_mean_for_the_privacy_of_my_users https://developers.google.com/fonts/faq#what_does_using_the_...
    - McDyver 7y ago
      So a lot of fluff and no actual reply. Users can be tracked without cookies being sent, while "access to the data is kept secure". Call me a cynic, but I lost my trust in google a long time ago.
      - saurik 7y ago
        Multiple people (I know as my upvote just now didn't even get you back in the black) downvoted you (and now me ;P), but you are absolutely correct that that quote didn't really have anything to do with the question.
      - lwf 7y ago
        To answer "track users across different websites", I think they pretty clearly say the opposite: > The Google Fonts API is designed to limit the collection, storage, and use of end-user data to what is needed to serve fonts efficiently. > When millions of websites all link to the same fonts, they are cached after visiting the first website and appear instantly on all other subsequently visited sites. [...] The result is that website visitors send very few requests to Google: We only see 1 CSS request per font family, per day, per browser. I guess, what would you want to see that would assuage your concerns, beyond what is written in the FAQ?
tiffanyh 7y ago
Re: variable fonts. What’s the rule of thumb on file size ... is 1 variable font smaller than 1 normal font? Or is it more like 1 variable font is smaller than 3 normal fonts combined (eg bold, italic, regular).
- raphlinus 7y ago
  A coarse rule of thumb is that each axis doubles the font size. So one that has just a weight axis is twice a normal font. One with a weight and width axis is four times. So if you actually use multiple instances from the design space, it's a win. This is only a rough guide, don't take it as gospel. I'm also researching ideas (radial basis function interpolation) to make it more sparse for larger numbers of dimensions.
- mmmrk 7y ago
  For some anecdata, compare the file sizes in the latest Cantarell release tarball from the GNOME FTP server. The compression ratio varies depending on how the variable font was made though. E.g. Noto Sans clocks in at 1.5 MB because it is made from 8 masters for two axes. Reducing it to 5 masters results in a 900 KB binary.
saghm 7y ago
> Inconsolata was one of the 20 fonts for the original launch Am I understanding this correctly to mean that you were part of a group that invented this font? Independent of the great work you obviously did on everything else, if this is correct, I just wanted to give a specific thank you for that! It's been my go-to font for my terminal, text editor, monospace font in the browser, and even the font my Linux machines use when they boot up before launching the GUI for years now.
- raphlinus 7y ago
  No, I drew Inconsolata myself, as well as inventing spiral-based tools for designing fonts, as an alternative to Béziers. I started work on it far in advance of working on the "Google Font API" as it was called at launch, so it was very natural to include it, along with other great fonts by other talented designers. I'm glad you like the font!
  - amelius 7y ago
    Curious, have your spiral based tools been documented/published somewhere?
    - raphlinus 7y ago
      Best place is probably my thesis: https://levien.com/phd/phd.html https://levien.com/phd/phd.html . All of the code is available under permissive open source license. I've been continuing to poke around with this and hope to have a newer set of tools before long.
      - jacobolus 7y ago
        Let me recommend that anyone interested in fonts, 2d graphics, CAD, etc. read Raph’s thesis. It’s great!
  - saghm 7y ago
    > No, I drew Inconsolata myself, as well as inventing spiral-based tools for designing fonts, as an alternative to Béziers Oh, wow! Keep up the amazing work!
bytematic 7y ago
Rust based font tools? Do you mean local font manipulation type scripts or some sort of web service?
- raphlinus 7y ago
  Mostly local font manipulation tools, including a GUI editor, but I can imagine some of the work ultimately becoming useful inside web services.
  - nixpulvis 7y ago
    Not font manipulation, but the Alacritty project has had an RFC [1] open for a while now to try and make font configuration better. It turns out I barely understand fontconfig every time I need to touch it. I'm just curious what (if any) your opinions about the de-facto Linux fontconfig framework are? [1]: https://github.com/alacritty/alacritty/issues/957 https://github.com/alacritty/alacritty/issues/957
    - raphlinus 7y ago
      I haven't dug too deep into it, but from what I've seen it seems complex, messy, and not up to solving real problems such as CJK Han unification. I wrote a bit about these difficulties in https://github.com/linebender/skribo/blob/master/docs/script_matching.md https://github.com/linebender/skribo/blob/master/docs/script... , and what I think was most disappointing is that I didn't get any actual feedback at the time. So it feels like about the same level of dysfunction as most Linux UI work.

dt3ft 7y ago

Was this created in order to track users across different sites or because google wanted to make the world a better place? :)

raphlinus 7y ago
The latter.
- BiteCode_dev 7y ago
  Do you think it's still used for the latter rather than the former now?
  - raphlinus 7y ago
    Heh, that's a better question. I have no reason to believe that Google Fonts are being used to track users, but I don't have hard evidence on this either way. I am deeply concerned about the way the modern Internet is turning into a surveillance machine and its potential for abuse, but if I were evil, I'd probably go after much lower hanging fruit than fonts.
    - BiteCode_dev 7y ago
      Thanks for this honest answer.
    - OrgNet 7y ago
      either way, loading fonts from google for every website is a stupid idea... it is why an extension like decentraleyes is a good idea (because most website don't think about the consequences).
  - ThePhysicist 7y ago
    I think Google might have better ways to track people. Fonts are also cached by CDNs and the local browser so I’m not sure if they provide good tracking data (they get loaded only for the first page visit for example and popular fonts like Open Sans are probably already in your cache when you open a page). If you’re concerned about tracking as a website operator you can simply load the fonts from your own server, most of them can be found on Github and have liberal licenses (I think all fonts on fonts.google.com)
    - WorldMaker 7y ago
      You can even install the fonts locally to your machine and your browser will favor the local copy. There are some tools like Skyfonts that let you install the top X from Google Fonts and it can be a fun way to speed up a lot of the web; with the tradeoff that not a lot of people have the top X installed for useful large versions of X and that becomes its own fingerprint for surveillance software (testing how long text takes to render in an off screen canvas, for instance). It's been suggested that Browsers or Operating Systems choose a useful X value and install the top fonts everywhere like they used to install the classic "core web fonts".
      - smichel17 7y ago
        Also there's a addon called "decentraleyes" that will cache fonts, amongst other things. It's one of 3 extensions I install in every browser I'm allowed to. The others are uBlock origin and https everywhere. All 3 have good privacy/security/performance benefits with effectively no breakage, in their default configurations.
        commoner 7y ago
        Decentraleyes is an excellent add-on that improves browsing speed and privacy with no negative side effects. Currently, the only font cached by Decentraleyes is Noto Sans. It also caches Google's Web Font Loader script and many major JavaScript frameworks. https://decentraleyes.org https://decentraleyes.org https://git.synz.io/Synzvato/decentraleyes https://git.synz.io/Synzvato/decentraleyes Web developers who are concerned about privacy exposure from Google Fonts can use google-webfonts-helper to extract the font files and self-host them. https://google-webfonts-helper.herokuapp.com/fonts https://google-webfonts-helper.herokuapp.com/fonts https://github.com/majodev/google-webfonts-helper https://github.com/majodev/google-webfonts-helper
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]

adventist 7y ago

Thank you for your service!

rememberlenny 7y ago

I currently work on it as well, so happy to pitch in.

juandazapata 7y ago
Does Google use this to fingerprint and track users across different websites?
- open-source-ux 7y ago
  The Google Font FAQ includes the question: What does using the Google Fonts API mean for the privacy of my users? > "...your requests for fonts are separate from and do not contain any credentials you send to google.com while using other Google services that are authenticated, such as Gmail." >"Google Fonts logs records of the CSS and the font file requests, and access to this data is kept secure." https://developers.google.com/fonts/faq#what_does_using_the_google_fonts_api_mean_for_the_privacy_of_my_users https://developers.google.com/fonts/faq#what_does_using_the_...
  - McDyver 7y ago
    So a lot of fluff and no actual reply. Users can be tracked without cookies being sent, while "access to the data is kept secure". Call me a cynic, but I lost my trust in google a long time ago.
    - saurik 7y ago
      Multiple people (I know as my upvote just now didn't even get you back in the black) downvoted you (and now me ;P), but you are absolutely correct that that quote didn't really have anything to do with the question.
    - lwf 7y ago
      To answer "track users across different websites", I think they pretty clearly say the opposite: > The Google Fonts API is designed to limit the collection, storage, and use of end-user data to what is needed to serve fonts efficiently. > When millions of websites all link to the same fonts, they are cached after visiting the first website and appear instantly on all other subsequently visited sites. [...] The result is that website visitors send very few requests to Google: We only see 1 CSS request per font family, per day, per browser. I guess, what would you want to see that would assuage your concerns, beyond what is written in the FAQ?

tiffanyh 7y ago

Re: variable fonts. What’s the rule of thumb on file size ... is 1 variable font smaller than 1 normal font? Or is it more like 1 variable font is smaller than 3 normal fonts combined (eg bold, italic, regular).

raphlinus 7y ago
A coarse rule of thumb is that each axis doubles the font size. So one that has just a weight axis is twice a normal font. One with a weight and width axis is four times. So if you actually use multiple instances from the design space, it's a win. This is only a rough guide, don't take it as gospel. I'm also researching ideas (radial basis function interpolation) to make it more sparse for larger numbers of dimensions.
mmmrk 7y ago
For some anecdata, compare the file sizes in the latest Cantarell release tarball from the GNOME FTP server. The compression ratio varies depending on how the variable font was made though. E.g. Noto Sans clocks in at 1.5 MB because it is made from 8 masters for two axes. Reducing it to 5 masters results in a 900 KB binary.

saghm 7y ago

> Inconsolata was one of the 20 fonts for the original launch Am I understanding this correctly to mean that you were part of a group that invented this font? Independent of the great work you obviously did on everything else, if this is correct, I just wanted to give a specific thank you for that! It's been my go-to font for my terminal, text editor, monospace font in the browser, and even the font my Linux machines use when they boot up before launching the GUI for years now.

raphlinus 7y ago
No, I drew Inconsolata myself, as well as inventing spiral-based tools for designing fonts, as an alternative to Béziers. I started work on it far in advance of working on the "Google Font API" as it was called at launch, so it was very natural to include it, along with other great fonts by other talented designers. I'm glad you like the font!
- amelius 7y ago
  Curious, have your spiral based tools been documented/published somewhere?
  - raphlinus 7y ago
    Best place is probably my thesis: https://levien.com/phd/phd.html https://levien.com/phd/phd.html . All of the code is available under permissive open source license. I've been continuing to poke around with this and hope to have a newer set of tools before long.
    - jacobolus 7y ago
      Let me recommend that anyone interested in fonts, 2d graphics, CAD, etc. read Raph’s thesis. It’s great!
- saghm 7y ago
  > No, I drew Inconsolata myself, as well as inventing spiral-based tools for designing fonts, as an alternative to Béziers Oh, wow! Keep up the amazing work!

bytematic 7y ago

Rust based font tools? Do you mean local font manipulation type scripts or some sort of web service?

raphlinus 7y ago
Mostly local font manipulation tools, including a GUI editor, but I can imagine some of the work ultimately becoming useful inside web services.
- nixpulvis 7y ago
  Not font manipulation, but the Alacritty project has had an RFC [1] open for a while now to try and make font configuration better. It turns out I barely understand fontconfig every time I need to touch it. I'm just curious what (if any) your opinions about the de-facto Linux fontconfig framework are? [1]: https://github.com/alacritty/alacritty/issues/957 https://github.com/alacritty/alacritty/issues/957
  - raphlinus 7y ago
    I haven't dug too deep into it, but from what I've seen it seems complex, messy, and not up to solving real problems such as CJK Han unification. I wrote a bit about these difficulties in https://github.com/linebender/skribo/blob/master/docs/script_matching.md https://github.com/linebender/skribo/blob/master/docs/script... , and what I think was most disappointing is that I didn't get any actual feedback at the time. So it feels like about the same level of dysfunction as most Linux UI work.