5 ms·

Saw a few of these this weekend, I'm curious to see if the 407 (Ontario's toll road)cameras can read them at night. I imagine this gets changed quite quickly if

Saw a few of these this weekend, I'm curious to see if the 407 (Ontario's toll road)cameras can read them at night. I imagine this gets changed quite quickly if they can only read the old plates.

loceng 7y ago
On CBC radio call in portion of a show a police officer agreed they're not good to read, definitely not easier, and I believe he was the caller that theorized that the blue background colour is reflective but they didn't reflect the letting itself: he theorized that made it easier for toll cameras to read the plates (better contrast) but not for human eyes. Also an ex-firefighter called in too and said that the flat plates (old ones had the characters imprinted) would make it more difficult to identify the remains of fiery vehicle crashes.
- yjftsjthsd-h 7y ago
  > easier for troll cameras to read ...typo? or...?
  - loceng 7y ago
    Freudian slip typo perhaps. Fixed, thanks.
- reaperducer 7y ago
  Burned vehicles are identified by their VIN numbers, not their plates. Your be surprised how often cars have the wrong/stolen/fake license plates.
  - yohannparis 7y ago
    True, but they said "more difficult", with plates it takes minutes for a Police officer over the radio to give you information on the Make/Model of a vehicle. Then for more details, you can fetch the VIN, but that is a more difficult task.
julianlam 7y ago
The article does specify that the Ford government tested the plates with "key stakeholders", which I'd imagine the 407 cameras would be one of them.
- pletsch 7y ago
  Ehh, the 407 is owned by the CPP (50.01%). Ford isn't a fan of the CPP, he tried to cut the increase almost immediately after taking office, I could see him cutting them out. This is also seen in Alberta, another conservative-led province, they've been trying to back out of it for years. Also, and this is anecdotal, I'm from a small town that votes overwhelmingly conservative, and a common talking point I hear is "why should we pay into the cpp? It won't be there when we retire" even though the fund is in no danger of going away anytime soon.
mumblemumble 7y ago
Given the numbers I've seen on some of my ETR bills, I could see that being a clever strategy to get more people to move to Ontario.
dsfyu404ed 7y ago
As someone who spent a long time in proximity to government processes similar to what decided upon these plates I assure you that the government will not shoot its ability to collect revenue in the foot. I think it's very safe to assume that these plates are wonderfully legible in the spectrum that ALPRs use.
- z2600 7y ago
  The 407 is privately owned (another Conservative government debacle) and makes very little for the provincial government except maybe HST.
AnthonyMouse 7y ago
> Saw a few of these this weekend, I'm curious to see if the 407 (Ontario's toll road)cameras can read them at night. I imagine this gets changed quite quickly if they can only read the old plates. It would be nice if some of the US states without tolls could do this on purpose, because many of the ones with them use them primarily to extract revenue from out of state drivers disproportionate to the cost of their use of the roads. This would also improve the privacy of their citizens, since it would presumably also interfere with ALPR in general and keep their vehicles' location history from ending up in adversarial third party databases. Anti-ALPR license plates are a feature, not a bug.
- squiggleblaz 7y ago
  What's the point of a number plate if it's not to allow a stranger at a distance to identify the car? It seems that Anti-ALPR plates are indeed a bug, although plates may be a misfeature.
  - AnthonyMouse 7y ago
    > What's the point of a number plate if it's not to allow a stranger at a distance to identify the car? The point is to allow a human to identify the car, not a network of cameras connected to a computer database. The ideal would be a plate that could be read by humans but not cameras, but failing that, a plate that can't be read by either is preferable to one that can be read by both. That still serves a purpose in satisfying legacy regulatory requirements to have a number plate even if it's now vestigial and no longer serves any non-bureaucratic purpose. The case for number plates has really eroded over time. Originally they couldn't be used for tracking because the logistics for that didn't exist, so that cost wasn't there and now it is. At the same time, their original value was always rather modest. The strongest case is for serious crimes like a hit and run, but even in those cases you need someone to get the plate number which they commonly fail to do, and in the most serious cases it's even less likely because a victim who dies can't remember the plate. So we're talking about it helping in a minority of a minority cases to begin with. Meanwhile in modern times it's more likely that the perpetrator will be caught on video (especially when every bystander has a camera phone), and then you have their face in combination with the make, model and color of the vehicle, which is enough to have a non-trivial chance of getting caught and preserve the deterrent even without the number plate. So on the one hand they now have a huge privacy cost that wasn't there before, on the other hand the value was never that high to begin with and it's even lower today than it was originally. So maybe we should just get rid of them.
goatforce5 7y ago
Apparently speed cameras in Toronto can't read them during the day: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/ontario-licence-plate-toronto-photo-radar-1.5467640 https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/ontario-licence-plate...
- julianlam 7y ago
  Well that's bloody ironic isn't it... That the government ensured that the 407 cameras (privately owned) can read the plates, but didn't bother to make sure the speed and red light cameras (government owned) can as well...!
  - yellowapple 7y ago
    It's about as ironic as rain on one's wedding day.

Saw a few of these this weekend, I'm curious to see if the 407 (Ontario's toll road)cameras can read them at night. I imagine this gets changed quite quickly if they can only read the old plates.

loceng 7y ago

On CBC radio call in portion of a show a police officer agreed they're not good to read, definitely not easier, and I believe he was the caller that theorized that the blue background colour is reflective but they didn't reflect the letting itself: he theorized that made it easier for toll cameras to read the plates (better contrast) but not for human eyes. Also an ex-firefighter called in too and said that the flat plates (old ones had the characters imprinted) would make it more difficult to identify the remains of fiery vehicle crashes.

yjftsjthsd-h 7y ago
> easier for troll cameras to read ...typo? or...?
- loceng 7y ago
  Freudian slip typo perhaps. Fixed, thanks.
reaperducer 7y ago
Burned vehicles are identified by their VIN numbers, not their plates. Your be surprised how often cars have the wrong/stolen/fake license plates.
- yohannparis 7y ago
  True, but they said "more difficult", with plates it takes minutes for a Police officer over the radio to give you information on the Make/Model of a vehicle. Then for more details, you can fetch the VIN, but that is a more difficult task.

julianlam 7y ago

The article does specify that the Ford government tested the plates with "key stakeholders", which I'd imagine the 407 cameras would be one of them.

pletsch 7y ago
Ehh, the 407 is owned by the CPP (50.01%). Ford isn't a fan of the CPP, he tried to cut the increase almost immediately after taking office, I could see him cutting them out. This is also seen in Alberta, another conservative-led province, they've been trying to back out of it for years. Also, and this is anecdotal, I'm from a small town that votes overwhelmingly conservative, and a common talking point I hear is "why should we pay into the cpp? It won't be there when we retire" even though the fund is in no danger of going away anytime soon.

mumblemumble 7y ago

Given the numbers I've seen on some of my ETR bills, I could see that being a clever strategy to get more people to move to Ontario.

dsfyu404ed 7y ago

As someone who spent a long time in proximity to government processes similar to what decided upon these plates I assure you that the government will not shoot its ability to collect revenue in the foot. I think it's very safe to assume that these plates are wonderfully legible in the spectrum that ALPRs use.

z2600 7y ago
The 407 is privately owned (another Conservative government debacle) and makes very little for the provincial government except maybe HST.

AnthonyMouse 7y ago

> Saw a few of these this weekend, I'm curious to see if the 407 (Ontario's toll road)cameras can read them at night. I imagine this gets changed quite quickly if they can only read the old plates. It would be nice if some of the US states without tolls could do this on purpose, because many of the ones with them use them primarily to extract revenue from out of state drivers disproportionate to the cost of their use of the roads. This would also improve the privacy of their citizens, since it would presumably also interfere with ALPR in general and keep their vehicles' location history from ending up in adversarial third party databases. Anti-ALPR license plates are a feature, not a bug.

squiggleblaz 7y ago
What's the point of a number plate if it's not to allow a stranger at a distance to identify the car? It seems that Anti-ALPR plates are indeed a bug, although plates may be a misfeature.
- AnthonyMouse 7y ago
  > What's the point of a number plate if it's not to allow a stranger at a distance to identify the car? The point is to allow a human to identify the car, not a network of cameras connected to a computer database. The ideal would be a plate that could be read by humans but not cameras, but failing that, a plate that can't be read by either is preferable to one that can be read by both. That still serves a purpose in satisfying legacy regulatory requirements to have a number plate even if it's now vestigial and no longer serves any non-bureaucratic purpose. The case for number plates has really eroded over time. Originally they couldn't be used for tracking because the logistics for that didn't exist, so that cost wasn't there and now it is. At the same time, their original value was always rather modest. The strongest case is for serious crimes like a hit and run, but even in those cases you need someone to get the plate number which they commonly fail to do, and in the most serious cases it's even less likely because a victim who dies can't remember the plate. So we're talking about it helping in a minority of a minority cases to begin with. Meanwhile in modern times it's more likely that the perpetrator will be caught on video (especially when every bystander has a camera phone), and then you have their face in combination with the make, model and color of the vehicle, which is enough to have a non-trivial chance of getting caught and preserve the deterrent even without the number plate. So on the one hand they now have a huge privacy cost that wasn't there before, on the other hand the value was never that high to begin with and it's even lower today than it was originally. So maybe we should just get rid of them.

goatforce5 7y ago

Apparently speed cameras in Toronto can't read them during the day: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/ontario-licence-plate-toronto-photo-radar-1.5467640 https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/ontario-licence-plate...

julianlam 7y ago
Well that's bloody ironic isn't it... That the government ensured that the 407 cameras (privately owned) can read the plates, but didn't bother to make sure the speed and red light cameras (government owned) can as well...!
- yellowapple 7y ago
  It's about as ironic as rain on one's wedding day.