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My first sale of my selfwritten software (about 35 years ago) was for a car driving instructor. The initial sales conversations where difficult. I thought they

My first sale of my selfwritten software (about 35 years ago) was for a car driving instructor. The initial sales conversations where difficult. I thought they did not see the advantages of having their planning & bookkeeping in a computer... How wrong I was. It was their "creative bookkeeping" that worried them. When I offered to make that all possible ('zapping' as it is called now), they loved it. Based on their referrals I sold it many times over. Come next customer / market: bookshops. Guess what the most important selling argument was, besides easy cataloging, inventory, searching, website publishing and reporting? Right: zapping. Thought me an important rule: do not underestimate what your customer is NOT telling you.

Brave-Steak 7y ago
You weren't worried about getting into trouble?
skrebbel 7y ago
Did it bother you that you were facilitating crimes?
- TheSpiceIsLife 7y ago
  Tax evasion is a fairly soft crime, it’s shouldn’t be surprising there are people okay with facilitating it. It’s not difficult to find people who believe, rightly or wrongly, the tax system is unfair.
  - scandox 7y ago
    It's a funny one because it's potentially one of the most serious crimes. You're stealing from everybody, undermining the basis of trust in the entire system in which we live and probably in the long term eroding the basis of democracy. You're creating a non-level playing field. On the other hand, black and grey market activity are also I think quite an important counter-balance to the possibility of totalitarian government. It creates "gaps" let's say for more diverse human and economic outcomes. Which is also potentially good. I think it's one of those indefensible things that we should tolerate a tiny amount of. Kind of like a vaccine in the body.
    - speedplane 7y ago
      > It's a funny one because [Tax Evasion is] potentially one of the most serious crimes. You're stealing from everybody, undermining the basis of trust in the entire system in which we live and probably in the long term eroding the basis of democracy. You're creating a non-level playing field. This is true, and in addition, it's a very unequal crime. To properly evade taxes and get away with it, you need professional help. Most standard W-2 employees can't afford it, i.e., for most, the cost to hire professional help evading taxes is larger than the taxes they could save. However, if you're very wealthy, then the calculus changes: saving 20% taxes on $50M/yr income is a lot more attractive than saving 20% on $200k/yr income. Effectively, the wealthier you are, the easier it is to evade taxes, further exacerbating at least the perception (and quite likely the reality) of inequality.
      - ryanmercer 7y ago
        >Most standard W-2 employees can't afford it, i.e., for most, the cost to hire professional help evading taxes is larger than the taxes they could save. . >than saving 20% on $200k/yr income Erm, that's not a standard W2 employee's income. Not even close. The median U.S. household income was $63,179 in 2017.
        akg_67 7y ago
        In lieu of the accuracy, you missed the essence.
        ryanmercer 7y ago
        Many on HN think everyone in the United States makes a 6-figure salary because they do. It's a common theme, I pointed out another potential instance. 40k of 200k doesn't make a big difference, 3016 of 15,080 (federal minimum wage @ 40 hours a week for a year) makes a HUGE difference as does 12,635.90 of 63,179. Why do you think waitstaff and the like prefer cash tips? because they feel that no one will know if they don't report some or all of that income. Go ask any waiter, waitress, bartender, etc if they want you to give them that tip on credit card where they get taxed or cash where they don't. The same goes for electricians, plumbers, handymen, etc as they'll happily take cash first because they can fudge their numbers some.
- cryptica 7y ago
  The reality is that pretty much everyone these days facilitates some kind of crime or unethical conduct in one way or another. Either intentionally or unintentionally and either actively through collaboration or passively through inaction. Aaron Swartz was spot on when he wrote about "The intentionality of Evil" - http://www.aaronsw.com/weblog/intentionalevil http://www.aaronsw.com/weblog/intentionalevil - This has become the biggest problem of our age. Even a lot of the things that are legal these days are extremely unethical. The system is a mess. Capitalism is destroying society, rewarding bad behavior and punishing good behavior. All the good companies/projects I worked on over the years (e.g. education) are struggling in this economy while all the evil ones (gambling, finance) are thriving. Communism is looking better with each passing day. Especially with the level of automation we have today. Every day, automation is getting better but people are getting worse. The systemic inefficiencies caused by fraud and other unethical behaviors under capitalism has outpaced the inefficiencies of a communist society whereby everyone gets paid the same and each person does as little work as possible.
iovrthoughtthis 7y ago
Ethics. Where were yours?
- throwaway54324 7y ago
  I’m not saying what OP did is right, however, is creating tools that could possibly bypass a governments’ laws always an ethical issue? Would the creators of VPN software need to consider ethics since it could break government censorship? Or if the government requested I create a backdoor for them, would that also be an ethical issue?
  - TeMPOraL 7y ago
    Creating a tool that can theoretically be abused to break laws? No. Selling a tool with a law-breaking feature, in full knowledge that its main selling point is that feature, that your customers are buying it specifically to break the law? That ought to raise some ethical concerns. You can say that it depends on the particular laws being broken - but here we're not talking about ethical minutiae of censorship or surveillance. We're talking the usual defrauding of the commons through tax evasion. Creators of VPN software definitely need to consider ethics when deciding who to sell to, what uses to tolerate, what information to store, and how to navigate local laws. Such a business has to deal directly with conflicting needs of citizens, criminals and governments, and thus whatever it does, it's making an ethics choice one way or another.
    - TheSpiceIsLife 7y ago
      > We're talking the usual defrauding of the commons through tax evasion. Giving ‘The Government’ less money is seen by some as a moral duty. Governments do a whole lot of giving other people other people’s money. I’m sure there’s people who would argue this can be problematic.
      - michaelt 7y ago
        > Giving ‘The Government’ less money is seen by some as a moral duty. Right, but when you add a feature that does that and has no other major use, you move beyond 'seen by some' on to 'seen by me'
jackcodes 7y ago
I know that taxes ultimately don’t result in lost schools and hospitals, as it’s never that 1:1, but do you ever think you could have cost your country a hospital, a new road, or a new warhead or whatever?
- senorjazz 7y ago
  > or a new warhead Perhaps they thought they were saving the lives of innocents from collateral damage in wars of aggression?
  - henvic 7y ago
    They probably were!
- Kaiyou 7y ago
  Taxes are pretty much theft at gunpoint, so I imagine nobody losing sleep over dealing with it in an appropriate way.
  - Frondo 7y ago
    Taxes are not theft, they are an agreed-upon payment for being a member of a society. Your parents, as guardians of a newborn, made your initial decision for you to bring you into the society. You maintained your consent by retaining your citizenship when you reached an age of majority. Taxes are the price you pay for retaining the benefits of your citizenship. Not theft.
    - leetcrew 7y ago
      this is sort of like the "wage slavery is consensual because both sides agreed" argument. what realistic alternative does someone who doesn't consent to taxation have? renouncing US citizenship triggers a large tax on the total value of your assets if you are wealthy. even if you're not wealthy, the US charges a flat fee of about $2000 for the process. you might literally be unable to afford renouncing your citizenship. even after that, the IRS can come back and harass you at any time if they suspect you of tax fraud, and most foreign countries will cooperate with them.
Aqueous 7y ago
seems like you were and are helping your customers commit tax fraud and should stop

Brave-Steak 7y ago

You weren't worried about getting into trouble?

skrebbel 7y ago

Did it bother you that you were facilitating crimes?

TheSpiceIsLife 7y ago
Tax evasion is a fairly soft crime, it’s shouldn’t be surprising there are people okay with facilitating it. It’s not difficult to find people who believe, rightly or wrongly, the tax system is unfair.
- scandox 7y ago
  It's a funny one because it's potentially one of the most serious crimes. You're stealing from everybody, undermining the basis of trust in the entire system in which we live and probably in the long term eroding the basis of democracy. You're creating a non-level playing field. On the other hand, black and grey market activity are also I think quite an important counter-balance to the possibility of totalitarian government. It creates "gaps" let's say for more diverse human and economic outcomes. Which is also potentially good. I think it's one of those indefensible things that we should tolerate a tiny amount of. Kind of like a vaccine in the body.
  - speedplane 7y ago
    > It's a funny one because [Tax Evasion is] potentially one of the most serious crimes. You're stealing from everybody, undermining the basis of trust in the entire system in which we live and probably in the long term eroding the basis of democracy. You're creating a non-level playing field. This is true, and in addition, it's a very unequal crime. To properly evade taxes and get away with it, you need professional help. Most standard W-2 employees can't afford it, i.e., for most, the cost to hire professional help evading taxes is larger than the taxes they could save. However, if you're very wealthy, then the calculus changes: saving 20% taxes on $50M/yr income is a lot more attractive than saving 20% on $200k/yr income. Effectively, the wealthier you are, the easier it is to evade taxes, further exacerbating at least the perception (and quite likely the reality) of inequality.
    - ryanmercer 7y ago
      >Most standard W-2 employees can't afford it, i.e., for most, the cost to hire professional help evading taxes is larger than the taxes they could save. . >than saving 20% on $200k/yr income Erm, that's not a standard W2 employee's income. Not even close. The median U.S. household income was $63,179 in 2017.
      - akg_67 7y ago
        In lieu of the accuracy, you missed the essence.
        ryanmercer 7y ago
        Many on HN think everyone in the United States makes a 6-figure salary because they do. It's a common theme, I pointed out another potential instance. 40k of 200k doesn't make a big difference, 3016 of 15,080 (federal minimum wage @ 40 hours a week for a year) makes a HUGE difference as does 12,635.90 of 63,179. Why do you think waitstaff and the like prefer cash tips? because they feel that no one will know if they don't report some or all of that income. Go ask any waiter, waitress, bartender, etc if they want you to give them that tip on credit card where they get taxed or cash where they don't. The same goes for electricians, plumbers, handymen, etc as they'll happily take cash first because they can fudge their numbers some.
cryptica 7y ago
The reality is that pretty much everyone these days facilitates some kind of crime or unethical conduct in one way or another. Either intentionally or unintentionally and either actively through collaboration or passively through inaction. Aaron Swartz was spot on when he wrote about "The intentionality of Evil" - http://www.aaronsw.com/weblog/intentionalevil http://www.aaronsw.com/weblog/intentionalevil - This has become the biggest problem of our age. Even a lot of the things that are legal these days are extremely unethical. The system is a mess. Capitalism is destroying society, rewarding bad behavior and punishing good behavior. All the good companies/projects I worked on over the years (e.g. education) are struggling in this economy while all the evil ones (gambling, finance) are thriving. Communism is looking better with each passing day. Especially with the level of automation we have today. Every day, automation is getting better but people are getting worse. The systemic inefficiencies caused by fraud and other unethical behaviors under capitalism has outpaced the inefficiencies of a communist society whereby everyone gets paid the same and each person does as little work as possible.

iovrthoughtthis 7y ago

Ethics. Where were yours?

throwaway54324 7y ago
I’m not saying what OP did is right, however, is creating tools that could possibly bypass a governments’ laws always an ethical issue? Would the creators of VPN software need to consider ethics since it could break government censorship? Or if the government requested I create a backdoor for them, would that also be an ethical issue?
- TeMPOraL 7y ago
  Creating a tool that can theoretically be abused to break laws? No. Selling a tool with a law-breaking feature, in full knowledge that its main selling point is that feature, that your customers are buying it specifically to break the law? That ought to raise some ethical concerns. You can say that it depends on the particular laws being broken - but here we're not talking about ethical minutiae of censorship or surveillance. We're talking the usual defrauding of the commons through tax evasion. Creators of VPN software definitely need to consider ethics when deciding who to sell to, what uses to tolerate, what information to store, and how to navigate local laws. Such a business has to deal directly with conflicting needs of citizens, criminals and governments, and thus whatever it does, it's making an ethics choice one way or another.
  - TheSpiceIsLife 7y ago
    > We're talking the usual defrauding of the commons through tax evasion. Giving ‘The Government’ less money is seen by some as a moral duty. Governments do a whole lot of giving other people other people’s money. I’m sure there’s people who would argue this can be problematic.
    - michaelt 7y ago
      > Giving ‘The Government’ less money is seen by some as a moral duty. Right, but when you add a feature that does that and has no other major use, you move beyond 'seen by some' on to 'seen by me'

jackcodes 7y ago

I know that taxes ultimately don’t result in lost schools and hospitals, as it’s never that 1:1, but do you ever think you could have cost your country a hospital, a new road, or a new warhead or whatever?

senorjazz 7y ago
> or a new warhead Perhaps they thought they were saving the lives of innocents from collateral damage in wars of aggression?
- henvic 7y ago
  They probably were!
Kaiyou 7y ago
Taxes are pretty much theft at gunpoint, so I imagine nobody losing sleep over dealing with it in an appropriate way.
- Frondo 7y ago
  Taxes are not theft, they are an agreed-upon payment for being a member of a society. Your parents, as guardians of a newborn, made your initial decision for you to bring you into the society. You maintained your consent by retaining your citizenship when you reached an age of majority. Taxes are the price you pay for retaining the benefits of your citizenship. Not theft.
  - leetcrew 7y ago
    this is sort of like the "wage slavery is consensual because both sides agreed" argument. what realistic alternative does someone who doesn't consent to taxation have? renouncing US citizenship triggers a large tax on the total value of your assets if you are wealthy. even if you're not wealthy, the US charges a flat fee of about $2000 for the process. you might literally be unable to afford renouncing your citizenship. even after that, the IRS can come back and harass you at any time if they suspect you of tax fraud, and most foreign countries will cooperate with them.

Aqueous 7y ago

seems like you were and are helping your customers commit tax fraud and should stop