7 ms·

"Athletes unionize" is one of the better arguments I've heard for why devs should. I'm curious to learn more about the origins of the players' union.

baron816 7y ago
I disagree. Professional sports leagues are both monopolies and monopsonies (meaning they’re the only ones hiring those specialized athletes). So the market dynamics are very different from that of tech. If you’re a NFL linebacker, you don’t really have an option to switch leagues if you’re unhappy with how it’s run. If you’re a software engineer, you can switch companies very easily.
- swang 7y ago
  what if apple, google, intel, adobe, pixar, lucasfilms all conspire to suppress your wages? great you can switch to another company that doesn't pay you your worth. https://www.latimes.com/business/technology/la-fi-tn-tech-jobs-settlement-20150903-story.html https://www.latimes.com/business/technology/la-fi-tn-tech-jo...
  - baron816 7y ago
    It’s already illegal for them to do that. The solution to collusion by firms is not collusion by workers.
    - 8note 7y ago
      what's the worst thing that happens to a big business by breaking the law? paying a small fine?
- elicash 7y ago
  I brought up professional sports unions in the context of having a highly competitive group of workers who make large salaries, and that a union can still be useful in that environment as far as negotiations. That professional sports are monopolies and monopsonies isn't particularly relevant to this point. The fact that tech workers can find a job elsewhere is even more motiviation to unionize because you have even more bargaining power and there are smaller risks.
  - baron816 7y ago
    > That professional sports are monopolies and monopsonies isn't particularly relevant to this point. What are you talking about. That’s entirely relevant. What’s not relevant is that the workers are rich. Market dynamics are the entirety of what determines your compensation and working conditions. Being able to leave for a competitor is pretty all the leverage you’re ever going to have.
    - elicash 7y ago
      If that was true, Kickstarter wouldn't have fought it as hard as they did. The workers just gained additional leverage. What's the evidence that these workers have zero additional leverage?
      - baron816 7y ago
        There’s no evidence that they do have additional leverage either. I could argue that they acted against their own self interest in many ways, but still don’t know for sure how things will work out in one way or another.
        elicash 7y ago
        There's absolutely evidence that unions increase wages. 100%. I suppose you could argue that's happening out of employer generosity? And that they're more generous when there's a union?
        aianus 7y ago
        > There's absolutely evidence that unions increase wages. 100%. Does that hold for unprofitable VC-subsidized companies? They might go bankrupt if VCs are turned off by a unionized workforce in the next round.
        baron816 7y ago
        Yes there is evidence that unions increase wages. But none for this specific case.
- slg 7y ago
  If this was the only reason to have a union, you would only expect unions to exist in sports leagues that have a monopoly. Yet that isn't what we see in practice. The WNBA and the MLS both have unions. The NBA G League is moving to form a union as we speak. These are all leagues that face stiff competition from abroad and it is common for American athletes to go play in those foreign leagues. However that competition between employers isn't enough to give the athletes the negotiating power that they can command with a union.
- heavyset_go 7y ago
  Then look at movie stars instead of athletes if you feel the analogy isn't apt. They're all card carrying members of SAG-AFTRA.
ticmasta 7y ago
They don't unionize though, they have a player's union. This is not the same thing. There is no collective bargaining process in professional sports that matches the typical public sector and athletes are not salaried employees. Nothing stops the top performers from negotiating a more lucrative contract. They also make a huge portion of their earnings via 3rd party engagements which a FT salaried employee cannot do. The player's union in sports caps downside for all; unions for the rest of us cap both the downside and upside and replace the current (often flawed) performance metrics with worse ones (aka seniority). If we focused on the bigger issue of properly classifying all these contract "gig" workers as employees we'd get a lot further than "protecting" coddled tech workers.
- elicash 7y ago
  > They don't unionize though, they have a player's union. These are LITERALLY the same thing. There's nothing that stops ANY type of union (including public employees) from negotiating caps or rewarding top performers. The NFLPA union works this way because the union represents the values of the workforce. A tech workers union can do the same if they wish. If a tech workers union wanted, they could negotiate for things like user privacy, or whatever else the people at that specific workplace wanted. Doing so would be a trade-off in a negotiation, of course. So if the workers cared more about that than layoff protection, then they could try to trade one for the other.
- MiroF 7y ago
  Sports does have a collective bargaining process and NFL players are part of the AFL-CIO. There have been two NFL strikes in recent memory. I'm flagging the above comment as it is misinformation.
- mplewis 7y ago
  > If we focused on the bigger issue We can do two things at once.
elicash 7y ago
Wish I knew more about it. Here's what the NFLPA has on their website: https://www.nflpa.com/about/history https://www.nflpa.com/about/history One of the reasons I like it as an example is it shows how much more a union can do than simply negotiate raises, and that they don't even have to do that part at all! You can collectively bargain over anything, and also a union can theoretically serve as a type of association that has other benefits. There's room for a ton of innovation and creativity here. You don't see people argue that their union means mediocre football players can't get fired. The values of the workers can absolutely be shared by the union (the players are the union) -- and if you want to negotiate for even higher pay rather than making it harder to fire folks, you can do that.
TazeTSchnitzel 7y ago
Athletics is not as luxurious you might think: https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2016/aug/07/olympic-games-rio-athletes-personal-finance-struggle https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2016/aug/07/olympic-games-...
- dopamean 7y ago
  Right but when someone says "athletes unionize" in this context they're almost certainly talking about the NFL and NBA. Not semi-amateur olympians.
  - m0zg 7y ago
    Speaking of which, it just blows my mind that US olympians routinely win a ton of gold against government-supported olympians from e.g. Russia or China. There wouldn't even _be_ any olympians from there if the government didn't fund it.
cortesoft 7y ago
Part of the reason athletes unionize, though, is because they play for monopoly leagues; there are no competitors for the top leagues in most American sports, so it isn't like you can just leave and play in the other NBA if you don't like their practices.
- jimbokun 7y ago
  Well, not a monopoly, but Apple, Google, and several other major Silicon Valley corporations did collude to keep developer salaries low.
  - thu2111 7y ago
    That was discovered and busted by the government. It appears unions aren't necessary to end wage fixing cartels. And especially, note that unions are wage fixing cartels!
    - authoritarian 7y ago
      I have near 0 trust in the major tech companies (Facebook/Google/Apple/etc.) but amazingly I trust the US government even less. I have absolutely no faith that the US government discovered and solved the salary issues in those companies in any meaningful way
    - UncleMeat 7y ago
      You should see how small my check was for restitution payments. I really don't think that the government fixed the problem effectively.
      - lawnchair_larry 7y ago
        Well with a union, not only do you get wage fixing, but also union dues!
        Apocryphon 7y ago
arrosenberg 7y ago
Baseball players unionized in the 60s for the same reasons any other group did - poor wages, poor working conditions, and owners who operated as feudal lords due to the reserve clause.
usaar333 7y ago
But even athletes have a clear distinction between management and "employee". The line is very blurry in engineering, esp. for senior devs which might go in and out of management frequently.
edmundsauto 7y ago
Marvin Miller is the man who created these. There are some good accounts of his life. When he started, MLB players hated hearing him out because they thought he was a communist. Talk about a situation where people cut off their nose to spite their faces!
lawnchair_larry 7y ago
A quick google search will explain that history and will also tell you why it makes no sense to compare athletes with developers.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
PeterisP 7y ago
Hollywood actors and screenwriters are also unionized.

baron816 7y ago

I disagree. Professional sports leagues are both monopolies and monopsonies (meaning they’re the only ones hiring those specialized athletes). So the market dynamics are very different from that of tech. If you’re a NFL linebacker, you don’t really have an option to switch leagues if you’re unhappy with how it’s run. If you’re a software engineer, you can switch companies very easily.

swang 7y ago
what if apple, google, intel, adobe, pixar, lucasfilms all conspire to suppress your wages? great you can switch to another company that doesn't pay you your worth. https://www.latimes.com/business/technology/la-fi-tn-tech-jobs-settlement-20150903-story.html https://www.latimes.com/business/technology/la-fi-tn-tech-jo...
- baron816 7y ago
  It’s already illegal for them to do that. The solution to collusion by firms is not collusion by workers.
  - 8note 7y ago
    what's the worst thing that happens to a big business by breaking the law? paying a small fine?
elicash 7y ago
I brought up professional sports unions in the context of having a highly competitive group of workers who make large salaries, and that a union can still be useful in that environment as far as negotiations. That professional sports are monopolies and monopsonies isn't particularly relevant to this point. The fact that tech workers can find a job elsewhere is even more motiviation to unionize because you have even more bargaining power and there are smaller risks.
- baron816 7y ago
  > That professional sports are monopolies and monopsonies isn't particularly relevant to this point. What are you talking about. That’s entirely relevant. What’s not relevant is that the workers are rich. Market dynamics are the entirety of what determines your compensation and working conditions. Being able to leave for a competitor is pretty all the leverage you’re ever going to have.
  - elicash 7y ago
    If that was true, Kickstarter wouldn't have fought it as hard as they did. The workers just gained additional leverage. What's the evidence that these workers have zero additional leverage?
    - baron816 7y ago
      There’s no evidence that they do have additional leverage either. I could argue that they acted against their own self interest in many ways, but still don’t know for sure how things will work out in one way or another.
      - elicash 7y ago
        There's absolutely evidence that unions increase wages. 100%. I suppose you could argue that's happening out of employer generosity? And that they're more generous when there's a union?
        aianus 7y ago
        > There's absolutely evidence that unions increase wages. 100%. Does that hold for unprofitable VC-subsidized companies? They might go bankrupt if VCs are turned off by a unionized workforce in the next round.
        baron816 7y ago
        Yes there is evidence that unions increase wages. But none for this specific case.
slg 7y ago
If this was the only reason to have a union, you would only expect unions to exist in sports leagues that have a monopoly. Yet that isn't what we see in practice. The WNBA and the MLS both have unions. The NBA G League is moving to form a union as we speak. These are all leagues that face stiff competition from abroad and it is common for American athletes to go play in those foreign leagues. However that competition between employers isn't enough to give the athletes the negotiating power that they can command with a union.
heavyset_go 7y ago
Then look at movie stars instead of athletes if you feel the analogy isn't apt. They're all card carrying members of SAG-AFTRA.

ticmasta 7y ago

They don't unionize though, they have a player's union. This is not the same thing. There is no collective bargaining process in professional sports that matches the typical public sector and athletes are not salaried employees. Nothing stops the top performers from negotiating a more lucrative contract. They also make a huge portion of their earnings via 3rd party engagements which a FT salaried employee cannot do. The player's union in sports caps downside for all; unions for the rest of us cap both the downside and upside and replace the current (often flawed) performance metrics with worse ones (aka seniority). If we focused on the bigger issue of properly classifying all these contract "gig" workers as employees we'd get a lot further than "protecting" coddled tech workers.

elicash 7y ago
> They don't unionize though, they have a player's union. These are LITERALLY the same thing. There's nothing that stops ANY type of union (including public employees) from negotiating caps or rewarding top performers. The NFLPA union works this way because the union represents the values of the workforce. A tech workers union can do the same if they wish. If a tech workers union wanted, they could negotiate for things like user privacy, or whatever else the people at that specific workplace wanted. Doing so would be a trade-off in a negotiation, of course. So if the workers cared more about that than layoff protection, then they could try to trade one for the other.
MiroF 7y ago
Sports does have a collective bargaining process and NFL players are part of the AFL-CIO. There have been two NFL strikes in recent memory. I'm flagging the above comment as it is misinformation.
mplewis 7y ago
> If we focused on the bigger issue We can do two things at once.

elicash 7y ago

Wish I knew more about it. Here's what the NFLPA has on their website: https://www.nflpa.com/about/history https://www.nflpa.com/about/history One of the reasons I like it as an example is it shows how much more a union can do than simply negotiate raises, and that they don't even have to do that part at all! You can collectively bargain over anything, and also a union can theoretically serve as a type of association that has other benefits. There's room for a ton of innovation and creativity here. You don't see people argue that their union means mediocre football players can't get fired. The values of the workers can absolutely be shared by the union (the players are the union) -- and if you want to negotiate for even higher pay rather than making it harder to fire folks, you can do that.

TazeTSchnitzel 7y ago

Athletics is not as luxurious you might think: https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2016/aug/07/olympic-games-rio-athletes-personal-finance-struggle https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2016/aug/07/olympic-games-...

dopamean 7y ago
Right but when someone says "athletes unionize" in this context they're almost certainly talking about the NFL and NBA. Not semi-amateur olympians.
- m0zg 7y ago
  Speaking of which, it just blows my mind that US olympians routinely win a ton of gold against government-supported olympians from e.g. Russia or China. There wouldn't even _be_ any olympians from there if the government didn't fund it.

cortesoft 7y ago

Part of the reason athletes unionize, though, is because they play for monopoly leagues; there are no competitors for the top leagues in most American sports, so it isn't like you can just leave and play in the other NBA if you don't like their practices.

jimbokun 7y ago
Well, not a monopoly, but Apple, Google, and several other major Silicon Valley corporations did collude to keep developer salaries low.
- thu2111 7y ago
  That was discovered and busted by the government. It appears unions aren't necessary to end wage fixing cartels. And especially, note that unions are wage fixing cartels!
  - authoritarian 7y ago
    I have near 0 trust in the major tech companies (Facebook/Google/Apple/etc.) but amazingly I trust the US government even less. I have absolutely no faith that the US government discovered and solved the salary issues in those companies in any meaningful way
  - UncleMeat 7y ago
    You should see how small my check was for restitution payments. I really don't think that the government fixed the problem effectively.
    - lawnchair_larry 7y ago
      Well with a union, not only do you get wage fixing, but also union dues!
      - Apocryphon 7y ago

arrosenberg 7y ago

Baseball players unionized in the 60s for the same reasons any other group did - poor wages, poor working conditions, and owners who operated as feudal lords due to the reserve clause.

usaar333 7y ago

But even athletes have a clear distinction between management and "employee". The line is very blurry in engineering, esp. for senior devs which might go in and out of management frequently.

edmundsauto 7y ago

Marvin Miller is the man who created these. There are some good accounts of his life. When he started, MLB players hated hearing him out because they thought he was a communist. Talk about a situation where people cut off their nose to spite their faces!

lawnchair_larry 7y ago

A quick google search will explain that history and will also tell you why it makes no sense to compare athletes with developers.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

PeterisP 7y ago

Hollywood actors and screenwriters are also unionized.