15 ms·

An investigation of the Pentagon's UFO program

138 points by weare138 7y ago

speedplane 7y ago
By now, tt seems pretty obvious that (1) there exist craft that are propelled by some physics that we are not aware of and (2) someone in the government or defense industry knows far more about it than the general public.
BoogieWoogie123 7y ago
This article is an absolute train wreck.
retiredalien 7y ago
The author of this article is a very impressive and credible person, but there’s little new covered here. It’s kind of circular logic confirming things already revealed. The individuals referenced are not impartial and are biased by a quest for exotic technology research going back decades. They’ve used their affiliation with the Intelligence Community to enchant investors, all of whom have lost money. The most compelling revelation is that the Director of the DoD SAP Central Office reportedly told Congress that these aircraft are not US black projects. Two key points that suggest this topic is driven by an unknown private entity with complex financial incentives: 1) This is essentially what KG (in the article) has said in regards to the UFO core story and the alien autopsy samples and 2) It was KG who first pitched Robert Bigelow on building a pseudoscientific device to communicate with Bigelow’s dead son. This was in the early 90s and happened at a retired Army Cornel’s house. This is how Bigelow got into paranormal research. What is undeniable is that Elizondo and Semivan work for a company that gifted a widely known stock scammer $1.5 million and is now on the TTSA board. Explaining this is hard beyond normal human folly. More details from my previous comment- https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22105013 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22105013
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- tgflynn 7y ago
  > It was KG who first pitched Robert Bigelow on building a pseudoscientific device to communicate with Bigelow’s dead son. Who is KG ? - Kit Green ? Do you have a source for this statement ?
  - retiredalien 7y ago
    Yes Kit. I don’t have a source to share. It occurred at Col. John Alexander’s home though, so one could potentially ask him.
    - JTT 7y ago
      If I may ask, even without a source to share I'd appreciate hearing anything you can add about this...where you heard it...how you found out, etc. Anything at all that either lends credence or simply explains it as a rumor from some other place. Thanks.
    - canuk83 7y ago
      Can you please share what you mean regarding the link between consciousness and kindness? Was that just offhand romantic musing or is it a reflection of something you've learned? I'd be grateful to understand more about what you mean by that.
      - deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
    - tgflynn 7y ago
      Then do you know why he did that ? I don't know much about Kit Green but the image he appears to be trying to project is that of a serious, though open-minded, researcher. Trying to sell someone a device to communicate with the dead doesn't seem to fit with that.
      - retiredalien 7y ago
        I think he realized he was lied to by high-level people and has succumbed to the reality that all this is deception. But here he is in 2017 talking to Kay Randall-May, his ‘best psychic’ about research at Stanford where she claim she communicates with “the Others”. Research at Nolan Lab - https://soundcloud.com/project333/connectivities-that-you-get-for-the-acquisition-of-information-includes-the-others/s-50shL https://soundcloud.com/project333/connectivities-that-you-ge...
- lonelappde 7y ago
  > The most compelling revelation is that the Director of the DoD SAP Central Office reportedly told Congress that these aircraft are not US black projects. This part makes no sense. Directors of secret projects are required to lie to Congress when asked. Remember TIA? google.com/search?q=least+untruthful+answer
lend000 7y ago
There are several important new pieces of information here and significantly more detail than we had before. In particular, we learn that "Brigadier General Richard Stapp, Director of the DoD Special Access Program Central Office, testified the mysterious objects being encountered by the military were not related to secret U.S. technology." There is also evidence put forward that Elizondo was put on the program because his varied experiences and clearances would be useful in ascertaining whether sightings were related to black projects. There is more confirmation here that anomalous events have occurred at ICBM bases, which is pretty sobering. The most prominent of these events happened in the 1960's, and there are similar reports that came out of Soviet Russia (not mentioned in this article). We also learn the lengths that both the government and the contractors went to deliver misinformation about the program since its initial revelation, despite it not actually involving any exotic technology. Many people will take this at face value and believe the Pentagon's next statement, despite the fact that they have continuously stated "we are done studying ufo's this time, nothing to see here" since Blue Book publicly ended, only for there to be another program revealed later. IMO this debunks the "secret US aircraft" angle that a lot of skeptics use, and it makes it highly unlikely it belongs to a "local" adversary.
- blotter_paper 7y ago
  If this is a false flag to get the world united against an extraterrestrial threat, then nothing short of widely circulated biological specimens would reasonably rule out secret US aircrafts. The experts said that the second Gulf of Tonkin incident was real, too. They're the government, my dear; they lie.
  - lend000 7y ago
    You can't have your cake and eat it, too. They do indeed lie, and most of their lies have involved calling serious unexplained incidents weather balloons or shooting stars. The most interesting documents are not the public statements prepared, but the private testimony between military groups behind closed doors.
    - 7y ago
dvh 7y ago
Here's my theory about the recent influx of UFO footages coming from high places. US military was working on advanced drones. Nothing fancy, think current best tech, add 15 years and billion in r&d, that kind of stuff. Then when it was ready for test they flew it secretly before their own pilots and waited for reports. And waited. And waited some more. Silence. They disabled stealth, added flashlights, nothing. Military pilots didn't reported it. Maybe Venus. Or moonlight bouncing off swamp gas, but not UFO. Why? In past decades whenever military pilot reported UFO they were laughed at, sent to psychologist, evaluated, sent behind the desk. Other pilots knew and when they saw something really weird they have kept it for themselves. Then the higher ups panicked. If they don't report our drones, they will not report Chinese or Russian drones either. We have hundreds and thousands of eyes in the sky but they will not report because they are afraid to speak. So they came up with a campaign. They started to publish official UFO footage and started more openly talk about it to show pilots that it is now ok to talk about UFO. Don't be afraid pilots, if you see something strange jus tell us, we take it seriously now. There are no aliens. Videos you saw are created or modified to look legit, and officially supported or confirmed. Goal is to encourage pilots to report possible Chinese drones.
- jeffrallen 7y ago
  "If you see something, say something."
- lend000 7y ago
  Unlike you, this article has evidence and testimony from a number of places and people specifically saying this is not black project technology. Defense contractors and government IT staff aren't like the MIT grads in Google's AI group. They work exactly 40 hours for a paycheck (each hour logged to a program's charge number), don't "fail fast and break things", don't collaborate within a large open scientific community, and ultimately, don't do a whole lot of innovation. Most segments are at least a decade behind the market where electronics and software are concerned -- the NSA is only as capable as it is because it can coerce beasts like Amazon and Google into letting them in. I find it highly unlikely they can account for the seemingly inertia-less craft that have been sighted with some credibility for at least 70 years. Also, keep in mind that the USS Nimitiz Tic-Tac was over 15 years ago now. Where's that drone tech now?
rafaelvasco 7y ago
I personally have no reason to negate the existence of aliens or UFOs. I've read a lot of testimonies about encounters and everything, and they mostly add up with one another. The problem is that this theme is such that there's lots of passionate people out there, and as such, there's lots of fabricated stuff too. One must be diligent when researching about this stuff, but the evidence is really strong;
- lonelappde 7y ago
  Much like economists have predicted 7 of the last 5 recessions, ufologists have spotted 7 of the past 5 alien spacecraft
- monkeydreams 7y ago
  > One must be diligent when researching about this stuff, but the evidence is really strong Where skeptics deviate from this reasoning is that, while there is hard evidence (i.e. the incidence of radiation burns, radar artifacts, etc) of something happening, the most likely explanation is terrestrial rather than interstellar.
  - tgflynn 7y ago
    Yes, but there's pretty strong evidence that something is going on that doesn't fit most rational people's model of reality. What that something is could range from extraterrestrial visitors to highly classified government programs that are protected by massive disinformation campaigns to gross government and military incompetence. I think it's important to find out what is really going on because all of those explanations have major implications for the American people at least and possibly for the entire world.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
- 2rsf 7y ago
  > I personally have no reason to negate the existence of aliens or UFOs. I've read a lot of testimonies about encounters and everything, and they mostly add up with one another. The two parts of the sentence doesn't necessarily adds up, I too think that life on other planets exists (or existed or will exist), but that doesn't necessarily mean that alien vehicles are poking us and a global conspiracy to hide their existence.
mfer 7y ago
When someone says UFO many people immediately think aliens. The military often means something different. For example, a new Chinese aircraft they can't identify is a UFO. In this article the word "alien" only shows up twice and it's someones opinion. It's easy to have miscommunication on this topic.
- taneq 7y ago
  "Any flying object is a UFO if you're bad enough at identifying flying objects."
  - jandrese 7y ago
    This is what kicked me out of the UFO stuff. You'd see all of these amazing sounding stories, but with zero hard evidence to back them up and little to no attempt to figure out a non-alien explanation for the phenomenon. It's pure conspiracy thinking, not in the least bit useful for finding the truth. They'll take anything they hear at face value and repeat it. With little to no hard evidence to go on (most of hit "locked up by the government") all you have is anecdotes that trace back to lunatics attributed to third parties that never existed.
cairo_x 7y ago
What's the deal with Skinwalker ranch? Why are they interested in it? Everything is so vague and x-filesy when people mention the ranch. Very woo woo without any actual details about what people have encountered there. What is the specific link between the ranch and UFOs?
- not_skeptic 7y ago
  To my knowledge this is some sort of urban legend thing. I looked into this world about a year ago and it seems there are a number of weird things that have basically nothing backing them up that won't die. There is endless talk among UFO enthusiasts about this ranch, this bob lazar guy, etc. These are things that really have no leg to stand on, yet get the same type of traction in UFO circles as well documented sightings like the Nimitz incident, Minot AFB, etc. I was really blown away by the real stuff, I don't get how people are seriously skeptics about these cases, but there seems to be some inability with this audience in differentiating between those cases and whatever they heard on reddit about skinwalker ranch.
- jcrawfordor 7y ago
  In my mind, Skinwalker Ranch is one of the most clear events that should raise questions about Bigelow's credibility. NIDSci very prominently purchased the ranch and initiated a research project there which they even invited some reporters to observe. Absolutely nothing came out of it besides a couple of books which provided essentially nothing other than recapping myths related to the site which are, themselves, of dubious origin (e.g. may have been fabricated much later than their supposed origin). See, e.g., Kelleher and Knapp's book. Note that both Kelleher and Knapp are referenced by TFA - Bigelow is perhaps the central body orbited by a dozen or so paranormal enthusiasts repeatedly involved in various schemes. Take down a list of the researchers associated with AATIP/BAASS and you will see their names come up over and over for the last twenty years of paranormal phenomena - frequently associated with high-profile research projects that quietly die with no results. After years of work at Skinwalker, NIDSci quietly closed up shop with nothing to show for the effort and, espeically in later years, very little apparent activity besides hiring a guard to keep everyone else out of the site. So obviously this is an opinionated answer, but I would say that there is nothing about Skinwalker Ranch besides some strange stories coming from the Gormans (previous owners of the ranch) and then a tremendous amount of confirmation bias and intrigue, most of which was only even possible because NIDSci was so incredibly shady and non-transparent about their work there despite inviting people to write books. To answer your question more directly, there is not necessarily any connection between Skinwalker Ranch and UFOs except to the extent that the greater community (and to some extent Bigelow and his friends) have drawn tenuous connections between Skinwalker Ranch and essentially every other paranormal phenomena ever proposed. For example, on of the phenomena said to surround Skinwalker Ranch is a rumbling or deep sound from the earth, which some suggest is evidence of ongoing construction work on a deep underground military base (DUMB). DUMBs are generally associated with interaction with alien races or work on extraterrestrial technology, mostly due to Bob Lazar.
drummer 7y ago
Anyone interestes in this should read the book Disclosure by Steven Greer.
gerdesj 7y ago
I (skim) read quite a lot of the article. I had a laugh (obvs). I then skim read the comments here. Oh fuck, I am really feeling out of place. I thought HN is where we talk bollocks about important stuff, or important things about bollocks or occasionally we debate important things about important things. I'm pretty sure I did not sign up to talk bollocks about bollocks (unless orchids are involved.) This is bollocks. How do I cancel my subscription?
- gerdesj 7y ago
  Think I hit a nerve.
  - not_skeptic 7y ago
    I thought the same until I looked into the matter. About 5% isn't crap. If you doubt, just ask what you will believe and I bet you can find your case in this subject. The other 95% is legitimate mis-identifications with a sprinkling of actual hoaxes to keep the skeptics fed well.
  - andrewflnr 7y ago
    You're getting downvoted because you're wasting space with your melodrama. If you want to "cancel your subscription", just don't come to the site anymore. Or just avoid threads you know you won't like. Definitely stop whining.
- sk0g 7y ago
  Yeah most of this thread reads like what I imagine a conspiracy theory forum would read like. Maybe I'm pessimistic, but nothing 'alien-y' can't be explained by one of: inexplicable/ as-of-yet unrecognised phenomena - geographic/ atmospheric, military research programs, and good old fashioned fakery.
  - blotter_paper 7y ago
    You're clearly unfamiliar with conspiracy forums; nobody has even brought up the Nephilim yet!
coleifer 7y ago
At risk of inviting ridicule, I went through a phase where I read everything I could find on the subject of UFOs. Jacques Vallee stands out as one of the most sober and interesting researchers on the topic. Some cases that I think are worth checking out: * Colares, Brazil * JAL 1628 * O'Hare airport * Green fireballs, Los Alamos * Black triangles in belgium * Solyut golden sphere (maybe soyuz, I don't recall) * Gordon Cooper Controversial but compelling: * Phoenix lights * Rendlesham * Ariel school * Nuremberg 1561
- tqkxzugoaupvwqr 7y ago
  Regarding black triangles: My parents told me many years ago how one warm evening they sat outside and looked at the sky. At a very low altitude (less than 50 m) a large, black, triangle-shaped object flew slowly over them without making any noise. This happened in Germany.
  - s8923 7y ago
    When was this? My uncle used to live in Germany many many years ago, and he told me a similar story when I was a kid. He apparently saw large black object, flying very low and absolutely silent.
remir 7y ago
Let's create a scenario for one moment: imagine we're being visited by a highly advanced civilization. Who they are, where they come from or why they're here is totally unknown. Again, just an imaginary scenario. Now, put yourself in the shoes of public authorities all over the world. Can you really schedule a public speech in front of your population to declare that someone is flying in highly advanced crafts since decades and you still don't know who or what you're dealing with? Of course not. First, you'll pretend there's no such thing. Then, you'll have the air force declare they're studying the thing. And finaly, decades after, you'll say it's possible we're being visited and that this issue must be addressed by world leaders.
- ColanR 7y ago
  Note also that if these sightings are extraterrestrial in origin, that highly advanced civilization is closely following the Star Trek Prime Directive in its interactions with Earth.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
Animats 7y ago
Why don't we have more cell phone videos of this stuff? Preferably from multiple cell phones from different angles. As for "lights in the sky", see [1]. It's getting way too easy to do this. [1] https://youtu.be/KhDEEN4gcpI https://youtu.be/KhDEEN4gcpI
- earthtourist 7y ago
  I looked at quite a few of the UFO videos on YouTube and none of them seemed legit to me except maybe this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-91Nobn2xk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-91Nobn2xk The uploader looks like the kind of weirdo that would grab their phone to capture a UFO video but probably doesn't have the skill to create such a high quality fake. It also matches the "tic tac" shape described by the most credible witnesses ever, the US Navy pilots.
  - Animats 7y ago
    Empty supply canister or a wing tank being dropped? There's a USAF base nearby.
    - earthtourist 7y ago
      Those seem like good guesses. Either seems plausible to me. It does some weird mid-air pause thing at 0:32. And generally seems to be going horizontal or even increasing in altitude. Maybe that's just momentum? It could also have tiny wings that are catching some air? But it looks very symmetrical and also reflective. The drop tanks I could find all look more aerodynamic and dull. I couldn't find any good videos of drop tanks being dropped. Not sure what kind of supply canister it could be. I'd love to know definitively because this is the first video I've seen that seems at all interesting.
jcrawfordor 7y ago
Evidently "Popular Mechanics is ripping open the U.S. government’s massive UFO problem" but not bothering to proofread. Yes, it seems a bit immature and pedantic to bother over mechanical errors in the text. But such clear mistakes in the published text (e.g. "intuitive" when they meant "initiative") does not speak well to their credibility as a newsgathering organization. Unfortunately it seems like there has been a general decay in how carefully published material is proofread, I find a surprising number of typos and mechanics problems in books as well. I've found Packt to be especially egregious in this regard, many of their books seem to have been written by a non-native speaker and then never proofread at all. Edit: it also strikes me as a bit iffy to introduce George Knapp as a KLAS reporter without mentioning his extensive involvement in the UFO community including hosting Coast to Coast AM. Whether fair or not this would lead many people (including myself) to view his information as generally less credible.
- zuckluni 7y ago
  Solid skeptical rebuttal...
  - jcrawfordor 7y ago
    I intend this less as a criticism of the material and more as a criticism of Popular Mechanics. I do have plenty of criticism of the material but it's a little more substantial than an apparent lack of copy editing. The introduction of the article really plays up its significance and this is clearly intended to be a big feature piece for PopMech. But it introduces very little new material to people who follow this issue and, as I was mentioning, doesn't even seem to have been carefully prepared for publication.
jml7c5 7y ago
I'm disappointed by this article. There is an amazing story here, and the author missed it: a collection of UFO believers and pseudoscientific quacks manage to get $26 million in funding from the US government. They produce mostly nonsense, yet somehow the project runs for years. The author collected all the pieces to tell the story, but wrote yet another "well, I'll let you decide, but it seems there's something to it ;)" article. I mean come on, look at the people involved! Look at the papers they've written and the views they've espoused! There's all sorts of nonsense: remote viewing, telekinesis, harnessing zero-point energy, anti-gravity. The guy who received most of the funds believes Skinwalker Ranch is some sort of nexus for paranormal activity! This could have been a great story, but the author was just too damn credulous.
- stult 7y ago
  A slightly more charitable interpretation: DoD hired a bunch of loonies to keep Harry Reid happy and they used the opportunity to evaluate whether public information about UFOs could be used to compromise actual SAP research projects (imagine if the conclusions of the report had been, “yeah this particular set of sightings could easily be explained by this hypothetical near future technology” and the tech described was an actual black project). Which actually isn’t a terrible idea from a counter intelligence perspective, though they definitely over paid for the product. Ultimately that’s on Harry Reid’s shoulders, though.
- zuckluni 7y ago
  the first two are real, I've seen it. RV is used as a signal for stock picking, is a not very well known but real niche industry. There are people who consistently perform above 75%. telekinesis is real, but humans are pretty weak at it. just watch YouTube. as for the last two, I haven't seen anything that proves it but the reports of tech and others stuff make it sound possible. your editorial stance is just one of many possibilities ellipsis why you so attached to it?
- tgflynn 7y ago
  Yeah, one possible explanation for a lot of this is that the US military has been scammed by a bunch of quacks and they lack personnel with sufficient scientific competence to evaluate what they are being sold. I don't see how it could explain the 2004 Nimitz incident though.
andrewflnr 7y ago
> Mention of Skinwalker Ranch in Utah as a “possible laboratory for studying other intelligences and possible interdimensional phenomena.” Using the word "interdimensional", rather than something more precise, smells like bullshit. Specifically, it sounds more like pop scifi than actual science. A "dimension" is an axis, not a universe, and I expect someone writing a serious document for the government about anything, much less ETI, to use the word correctly.Then again, I've been disappointed before. Anyway, I'm holding open the possibility that the whole BAASS thing is the biggest, most embarrassing contracting boondoggle of all time.
- tgflynn 7y ago
  I agree with some of what you say in that introducing theories for which there is absolutely no known evidence doesn't exactly help their credibility. However: > A "dimension" is an axis, not a universe, I don't think you should be so absolutest about that. How do you know that what we think of as "the universe" doesn't live entirely in a 3+1 dimensional subspace of some larger universe ?
  - andrewflnr 7y ago
    I don't know that our universe isn't a subspace of some higher-dimensional structure. That has nothing to do with what the specific word "dimension" means and has always meant outside of sci-fi. There has never been a sound reason to use the word "dimension" to describe the other possibilities you mention. If you want to write a technical document about those possibilities and be taken seriously, you need to find a better term. Invent one if necessary.
    - tgflynn 7y ago
      In that case I think it's you who is misunderstanding the word. Unfortunately I haven't the time to give you a course on Linear Algebra so unless you can explain in more detail why you believe that the word "dimension" is inappropriate for the case I described I'm not going to be able to help you. I do suggest you watch this video from Carl Sagan's TV show Cosmos: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N0WjV6MmCyM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N0WjV6MmCyM
jcrawfordor 7y ago
In many, many ways, AATIP appears to be Skinwalker Ranch all over again and BAASS is NIDSci all over again. There is significant overlap between the people involved and BAASS even has an odd habit of bringing up Skinwalker Ranch repeatedly despite a lack of a clear connection. This is significant when you look at the history of NIDSci's investigation of Skinwalker Ranch, which was a fairly high profile and well-funded investigation run by essentially all the same people which, after years, produced some popular media but few or no actual results. To a cynical eye, it looks very much like Bigelow ran out of funding for his ongoing Skinwalker Ranch work (thus the undiscussed decline in actual NIDSci activity at the site despite it supposedly being an active project) and then, through some combination of wheeling and dealing and good fortune, connected with Sen. Reid to obtain a significant source of new funding to do similar work. Despite this funding being directed at UFOs generally and not Skinwalker Ranch specifically, BAASS still shows a desire to funnel that money towards Skinwalker Ranch. So, is this a case of the US Gov't working towards disclosure, or a case of Bigelow finding a new source of funding for his ongoing hobby project at Skinwalker Ranch, and the DoD and the taxpayer being taken along for the ride? The involvement of DeLonge is an interesting twist not present for the Skinwalker Ranch saga, but unsurprising considering DeLonge's longstanding interest in UFOs and apparent similarity to Bigelow (wealthy, eccentric, and interested in paranormal phenomena). DeLonge, as well as Bigelow, seems fully prepared to play the whole matter for personal benefit through TTSA. I do not question that there are interesting phenomena under the heading of UAP and that that Nimitz incident might be one of the most compelling pieces of open evidence. However, given the history of Bigelow and and almost everyone else heavily involved in BAASS, I have a very hard time beliving that the AATIP is going to take us in the direction of better understanding. I feel that it takes very little background in federal contracting, especially in the intelligence space, to fully believe that the DoD has invested tens of millions of dollars into a total flight of fancy. This has happened many times and will happen many more. Confusion and opacity in discussing the matter is completely unsurprising as a result of both the complicated confidentiality matters involved and the DoD's inherent lack of interest in being clear that it has spent tens of millions on Bigelow's hobby. I sound very critical, and I am. But I think the important point is that a lot of the popular reporting on the issue, perhaps all of it, fails to discuss the possibility that "there is no there there" and that this is quite possibly just another story of DoD inefficacy with an unusual, Blink-182 twist.
zuckluni 7y ago
to everyone theorizing. why? first, whether you say it's aliens or "the government", face it, both those concepts are black boxes to invoke to explain the unexplainable, ergo they're equivalent explanations, or different valence, same kind second, why be so quick to grasp and reduce it to a theory? why not just be a little bit comfortable with the discomfort of an unresolved tension? why just not be a little bit comfortable with an unanswered question, an unknown, a mystery, something amazing and wonderful and unable to be explained? why the need to rush to explain it reaching and grasping and expose yourself to the error of putting your need to explain it in front of actual accuracy? you can't end up with something good like that. you just satisfy your need of an explanation but why not just be comfortable with the question, with the mystery? That's a problem without secular world.... people need to get more comfortable with the mystery otherwise it's the stupid anthropomorphic point of view that says nothing a human can see outside it's tiny stupid ignorant little box exists... why not just do the easy thing and acknowledge okay there's a whole lot of fucking mystery out there I'm not going to rush to say it's this or that I'm just going to be okay with, "okay there's a lot of stuff I don't fucking know" that seems like the rationale sensible and to be honest happy perspective to take why everyone wants got to be so crazy to rationalize and theorize and reduce it to some story when nobody has any fucking idea at all? isn't that just psychosis? do yourself a favor don't believe anything just keep an open mind don't rush to believe cuz you most likely believe in something that's fucking crazy
- tgflynn 7y ago
  Well if humans had always followed the approach you suggest they would never have mastered fire or discovered agriculture. Would you rather be living as a hunter-gatherer or some non-human primate ?
  - zuckluni 7y ago
    What i'm really saying is in this case the theorizing has gotten in it's own way, isn't that obvious? i'm saying we should try to understand, but you gotta have the courage to face the mystery first, so you can see it clearly, without these kaleidoscope distortions preventing you from ever seeing the data you need to get understanding. point of theory is to gain understanding, no? but if you're using theory as a stick to beat other people with, and if the theory is preventing people looking at the data (that you could turn into understanding), or if it's not falsifiable, then it's not helping. you can't disprove the government creates all this as a psyop. but that 'theory' discourages people from taking the evidence seriously. you also can't disprove 'it is all aliens' but that theory discourages (perhaps another set of people) from taking the data seriously. theories are good! except when they're not. and in this case they've gone fucking crazy. it's like sportsteams. there's no rationality. and science won't touch it, that's the problem. these pathetic theories are in way. they might be fun (to cheer for) but they're not helping understanding. that's what i'm saying. that's the problem. or one of them, duh.
PaulRobinson 7y ago
At the risk of sound like a crank, this book convinced me of quite a few things: https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/750010.Witness_to_Roswell https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/750010.Witness_to_Ros... The things I came away with were: - Approx. 600 former USAAF (the precursor to the USAF) staff have admitted there was a cover-up of some description - Multiple first-hand dying testimonies or "open after I die" testimonies agree there was a craft and several beings of unknown origin that were the subject of said cover-up - Nobody with any expertise in Soviet technology believed it was within the capabilities of the Soviets. - Nitinol possesses many of the qualities of the material said to be found by multiple eyewitnesses. It was actively researched only after this incident, and the public history of it doesn't tally with some documentary evidence. And it's for those reasons I don't think anybody in the US military was prepared to just step back and accept that these strange objects were no threat or danger. Nobody has to agree on ET origin to accept that something was found that posed a threat to the country, but most people do not accept a Soviet origin. The Roswell incident showed to some that the US public were not ready for it. Highly religious people had breakdowns (they cycled in a new pastor on-base for that reason, as it happened), and some like the town Mayor really, really struggled to cope with what was going on. So imagine you're briefed on all this as a top general in the US military. Wouldn't you put some money into trying to figure out what is going on, and to do so in a way that would not alarm Americans to the point of mass hysteria? Would you not want to throw some money at some covert operations to make sure you were getting a sense of what was going on? As an aside, whilst the Roswell story has a fair bit of credibility - as many others do, it's just Roswell has more witnesses that have gone on the record - absolutely nothing that Bob Lazar has written stands up to an iota of scrutiny. That's not how security clearances work, period.
- samsari 7y ago
  If there really was any truth to it, then I would expect the authorities to have been for the last several decades quietly encouraging Hollywood et al to produce certain films and tv series. Media which would introduce and normalise some concepts so as to soften the blow when the eventual revelation of whatever it was about Roswell that people in the know found so difficult to deal with.

138 points by weare138 7y ago

By now, tt seems pretty obvious that (1) there exist craft that are propelled by some physics that we are not aware of and (2) someone in the government or defense industry knows far more about it than the general public.

BoogieWoogie123 7y ago

This article is an absolute train wreck.

retiredalien 7y ago

The author of this article is a very impressive and credible person, but there’s little new covered here. It’s kind of circular logic confirming things already revealed. The individuals referenced are not impartial and are biased by a quest for exotic technology research going back decades. They’ve used their affiliation with the Intelligence Community to enchant investors, all of whom have lost money. The most compelling revelation is that the Director of the DoD SAP Central Office reportedly told Congress that these aircraft are not US black projects. Two key points that suggest this topic is driven by an unknown private entity with complex financial incentives: 1) This is essentially what KG (in the article) has said in regards to the UFO core story and the alien autopsy samples and 2) It was KG who first pitched Robert Bigelow on building a pseudoscientific device to communicate with Bigelow’s dead son. This was in the early 90s and happened at a retired Army Cornel’s house. This is how Bigelow got into paranormal research. What is undeniable is that Elizondo and Semivan work for a company that gifted a widely known stock scammer $1.5 million and is now on the TTSA board. Explaining this is hard beyond normal human folly. More details from my previous comment- https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22105013 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22105013

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
tgflynn 7y ago
> It was KG who first pitched Robert Bigelow on building a pseudoscientific device to communicate with Bigelow’s dead son. Who is KG ? - Kit Green ? Do you have a source for this statement ?
- retiredalien 7y ago
  Yes Kit. I don’t have a source to share. It occurred at Col. John Alexander’s home though, so one could potentially ask him.
  - JTT 7y ago
    If I may ask, even without a source to share I'd appreciate hearing anything you can add about this...where you heard it...how you found out, etc. Anything at all that either lends credence or simply explains it as a rumor from some other place. Thanks.
  - canuk83 7y ago
    Can you please share what you mean regarding the link between consciousness and kindness? Was that just offhand romantic musing or is it a reflection of something you've learned? I'd be grateful to understand more about what you mean by that.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
  - tgflynn 7y ago
    Then do you know why he did that ? I don't know much about Kit Green but the image he appears to be trying to project is that of a serious, though open-minded, researcher. Trying to sell someone a device to communicate with the dead doesn't seem to fit with that.
    - retiredalien 7y ago
      I think he realized he was lied to by high-level people and has succumbed to the reality that all this is deception. But here he is in 2017 talking to Kay Randall-May, his ‘best psychic’ about research at Stanford where she claim she communicates with “the Others”. Research at Nolan Lab - https://soundcloud.com/project333/connectivities-that-you-get-for-the-acquisition-of-information-includes-the-others/s-50shL https://soundcloud.com/project333/connectivities-that-you-ge...
lonelappde 7y ago
> The most compelling revelation is that the Director of the DoD SAP Central Office reportedly told Congress that these aircraft are not US black projects. This part makes no sense. Directors of secret projects are required to lie to Congress when asked. Remember TIA? google.com/search?q=least+untruthful+answer

lend000 7y ago

There are several important new pieces of information here and significantly more detail than we had before. In particular, we learn that "Brigadier General Richard Stapp, Director of the DoD Special Access Program Central Office, testified the mysterious objects being encountered by the military were not related to secret U.S. technology." There is also evidence put forward that Elizondo was put on the program because his varied experiences and clearances would be useful in ascertaining whether sightings were related to black projects. There is more confirmation here that anomalous events have occurred at ICBM bases, which is pretty sobering. The most prominent of these events happened in the 1960's, and there are similar reports that came out of Soviet Russia (not mentioned in this article). We also learn the lengths that both the government and the contractors went to deliver misinformation about the program since its initial revelation, despite it not actually involving any exotic technology. Many people will take this at face value and believe the Pentagon's next statement, despite the fact that they have continuously stated "we are done studying ufo's this time, nothing to see here" since Blue Book publicly ended, only for there to be another program revealed later. IMO this debunks the "secret US aircraft" angle that a lot of skeptics use, and it makes it highly unlikely it belongs to a "local" adversary.

blotter_paper 7y ago
If this is a false flag to get the world united against an extraterrestrial threat, then nothing short of widely circulated biological specimens would reasonably rule out secret US aircrafts. The experts said that the second Gulf of Tonkin incident was real, too. They're the government, my dear; they lie.
- lend000 7y ago
  You can't have your cake and eat it, too. They do indeed lie, and most of their lies have involved calling serious unexplained incidents weather balloons or shooting stars. The most interesting documents are not the public statements prepared, but the private testimony between military groups behind closed doors.
  - 7y ago

dvh 7y ago

Here's my theory about the recent influx of UFO footages coming from high places. US military was working on advanced drones. Nothing fancy, think current best tech, add 15 years and billion in r&d, that kind of stuff. Then when it was ready for test they flew it secretly before their own pilots and waited for reports. And waited. And waited some more. Silence. They disabled stealth, added flashlights, nothing. Military pilots didn't reported it. Maybe Venus. Or moonlight bouncing off swamp gas, but not UFO. Why? In past decades whenever military pilot reported UFO they were laughed at, sent to psychologist, evaluated, sent behind the desk. Other pilots knew and when they saw something really weird they have kept it for themselves. Then the higher ups panicked. If they don't report our drones, they will not report Chinese or Russian drones either. We have hundreds and thousands of eyes in the sky but they will not report because they are afraid to speak. So they came up with a campaign. They started to publish official UFO footage and started more openly talk about it to show pilots that it is now ok to talk about UFO. Don't be afraid pilots, if you see something strange jus tell us, we take it seriously now. There are no aliens. Videos you saw are created or modified to look legit, and officially supported or confirmed. Goal is to encourage pilots to report possible Chinese drones.

jeffrallen 7y ago
"If you see something, say something."
lend000 7y ago
Unlike you, this article has evidence and testimony from a number of places and people specifically saying this is not black project technology. Defense contractors and government IT staff aren't like the MIT grads in Google's AI group. They work exactly 40 hours for a paycheck (each hour logged to a program's charge number), don't "fail fast and break things", don't collaborate within a large open scientific community, and ultimately, don't do a whole lot of innovation. Most segments are at least a decade behind the market where electronics and software are concerned -- the NSA is only as capable as it is because it can coerce beasts like Amazon and Google into letting them in. I find it highly unlikely they can account for the seemingly inertia-less craft that have been sighted with some credibility for at least 70 years. Also, keep in mind that the USS Nimitiz Tic-Tac was over 15 years ago now. Where's that drone tech now?

rafaelvasco 7y ago

I personally have no reason to negate the existence of aliens or UFOs. I've read a lot of testimonies about encounters and everything, and they mostly add up with one another. The problem is that this theme is such that there's lots of passionate people out there, and as such, there's lots of fabricated stuff too. One must be diligent when researching about this stuff, but the evidence is really strong;

lonelappde 7y ago
Much like economists have predicted 7 of the last 5 recessions, ufologists have spotted 7 of the past 5 alien spacecraft
monkeydreams 7y ago
> One must be diligent when researching about this stuff, but the evidence is really strong Where skeptics deviate from this reasoning is that, while there is hard evidence (i.e. the incidence of radiation burns, radar artifacts, etc) of something happening, the most likely explanation is terrestrial rather than interstellar.
- tgflynn 7y ago
  Yes, but there's pretty strong evidence that something is going on that doesn't fit most rational people's model of reality. What that something is could range from extraterrestrial visitors to highly classified government programs that are protected by massive disinformation campaigns to gross government and military incompetence. I think it's important to find out what is really going on because all of those explanations have major implications for the American people at least and possibly for the entire world.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
2rsf 7y ago
> I personally have no reason to negate the existence of aliens or UFOs. I've read a lot of testimonies about encounters and everything, and they mostly add up with one another. The two parts of the sentence doesn't necessarily adds up, I too think that life on other planets exists (or existed or will exist), but that doesn't necessarily mean that alien vehicles are poking us and a global conspiracy to hide their existence.

mfer 7y ago

When someone says UFO many people immediately think aliens. The military often means something different. For example, a new Chinese aircraft they can't identify is a UFO. In this article the word "alien" only shows up twice and it's someones opinion. It's easy to have miscommunication on this topic.

taneq 7y ago
"Any flying object is a UFO if you're bad enough at identifying flying objects."
- jandrese 7y ago
  This is what kicked me out of the UFO stuff. You'd see all of these amazing sounding stories, but with zero hard evidence to back them up and little to no attempt to figure out a non-alien explanation for the phenomenon. It's pure conspiracy thinking, not in the least bit useful for finding the truth. They'll take anything they hear at face value and repeat it. With little to no hard evidence to go on (most of hit "locked up by the government") all you have is anecdotes that trace back to lunatics attributed to third parties that never existed.

cairo_x 7y ago

What's the deal with Skinwalker ranch? Why are they interested in it? Everything is so vague and x-filesy when people mention the ranch. Very woo woo without any actual details about what people have encountered there. What is the specific link between the ranch and UFOs?

not_skeptic 7y ago
To my knowledge this is some sort of urban legend thing. I looked into this world about a year ago and it seems there are a number of weird things that have basically nothing backing them up that won't die. There is endless talk among UFO enthusiasts about this ranch, this bob lazar guy, etc. These are things that really have no leg to stand on, yet get the same type of traction in UFO circles as well documented sightings like the Nimitz incident, Minot AFB, etc. I was really blown away by the real stuff, I don't get how people are seriously skeptics about these cases, but there seems to be some inability with this audience in differentiating between those cases and whatever they heard on reddit about skinwalker ranch.
jcrawfordor 7y ago
In my mind, Skinwalker Ranch is one of the most clear events that should raise questions about Bigelow's credibility. NIDSci very prominently purchased the ranch and initiated a research project there which they even invited some reporters to observe. Absolutely nothing came out of it besides a couple of books which provided essentially nothing other than recapping myths related to the site which are, themselves, of dubious origin (e.g. may have been fabricated much later than their supposed origin). See, e.g., Kelleher and Knapp's book. Note that both Kelleher and Knapp are referenced by TFA - Bigelow is perhaps the central body orbited by a dozen or so paranormal enthusiasts repeatedly involved in various schemes. Take down a list of the researchers associated with AATIP/BAASS and you will see their names come up over and over for the last twenty years of paranormal phenomena - frequently associated with high-profile research projects that quietly die with no results. After years of work at Skinwalker, NIDSci quietly closed up shop with nothing to show for the effort and, espeically in later years, very little apparent activity besides hiring a guard to keep everyone else out of the site. So obviously this is an opinionated answer, but I would say that there is nothing about Skinwalker Ranch besides some strange stories coming from the Gormans (previous owners of the ranch) and then a tremendous amount of confirmation bias and intrigue, most of which was only even possible because NIDSci was so incredibly shady and non-transparent about their work there despite inviting people to write books. To answer your question more directly, there is not necessarily any connection between Skinwalker Ranch and UFOs except to the extent that the greater community (and to some extent Bigelow and his friends) have drawn tenuous connections between Skinwalker Ranch and essentially every other paranormal phenomena ever proposed. For example, on of the phenomena said to surround Skinwalker Ranch is a rumbling or deep sound from the earth, which some suggest is evidence of ongoing construction work on a deep underground military base (DUMB). DUMBs are generally associated with interaction with alien races or work on extraterrestrial technology, mostly due to Bob Lazar.

drummer 7y ago

Anyone interestes in this should read the book Disclosure by Steven Greer.

gerdesj 7y ago

I (skim) read quite a lot of the article. I had a laugh (obvs). I then skim read the comments here. Oh fuck, I am really feeling out of place. I thought HN is where we talk bollocks about important stuff, or important things about bollocks or occasionally we debate important things about important things. I'm pretty sure I did not sign up to talk bollocks about bollocks (unless orchids are involved.) This is bollocks. How do I cancel my subscription?

gerdesj 7y ago
Think I hit a nerve.
- not_skeptic 7y ago
  I thought the same until I looked into the matter. About 5% isn't crap. If you doubt, just ask what you will believe and I bet you can find your case in this subject. The other 95% is legitimate mis-identifications with a sprinkling of actual hoaxes to keep the skeptics fed well.
- andrewflnr 7y ago
  You're getting downvoted because you're wasting space with your melodrama. If you want to "cancel your subscription", just don't come to the site anymore. Or just avoid threads you know you won't like. Definitely stop whining.
sk0g 7y ago
Yeah most of this thread reads like what I imagine a conspiracy theory forum would read like. Maybe I'm pessimistic, but nothing 'alien-y' can't be explained by one of: inexplicable/ as-of-yet unrecognised phenomena - geographic/ atmospheric, military research programs, and good old fashioned fakery.
- blotter_paper 7y ago
  You're clearly unfamiliar with conspiracy forums; nobody has even brought up the Nephilim yet!

coleifer 7y ago

At risk of inviting ridicule, I went through a phase where I read everything I could find on the subject of UFOs. Jacques Vallee stands out as one of the most sober and interesting researchers on the topic. Some cases that I think are worth checking out: * Colares, Brazil * JAL 1628 * O'Hare airport * Green fireballs, Los Alamos * Black triangles in belgium * Solyut golden sphere (maybe soyuz, I don't recall) * Gordon Cooper Controversial but compelling: * Phoenix lights * Rendlesham * Ariel school * Nuremberg 1561

tqkxzugoaupvwqr 7y ago
Regarding black triangles: My parents told me many years ago how one warm evening they sat outside and looked at the sky. At a very low altitude (less than 50 m) a large, black, triangle-shaped object flew slowly over them without making any noise. This happened in Germany.
- s8923 7y ago
  When was this? My uncle used to live in Germany many many years ago, and he told me a similar story when I was a kid. He apparently saw large black object, flying very low and absolutely silent.

remir 7y ago

Let's create a scenario for one moment: imagine we're being visited by a highly advanced civilization. Who they are, where they come from or why they're here is totally unknown. Again, just an imaginary scenario. Now, put yourself in the shoes of public authorities all over the world. Can you really schedule a public speech in front of your population to declare that someone is flying in highly advanced crafts since decades and you still don't know who or what you're dealing with? Of course not. First, you'll pretend there's no such thing. Then, you'll have the air force declare they're studying the thing. And finaly, decades after, you'll say it's possible we're being visited and that this issue must be addressed by world leaders.

ColanR 7y ago
Note also that if these sightings are extraterrestrial in origin, that highly advanced civilization is closely following the Star Trek Prime Directive in its interactions with Earth.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

Animats 7y ago

Why don't we have more cell phone videos of this stuff? Preferably from multiple cell phones from different angles. As for "lights in the sky", see [1]. It's getting way too easy to do this. [1] https://youtu.be/KhDEEN4gcpI https://youtu.be/KhDEEN4gcpI

earthtourist 7y ago
I looked at quite a few of the UFO videos on YouTube and none of them seemed legit to me except maybe this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-91Nobn2xk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-91Nobn2xk The uploader looks like the kind of weirdo that would grab their phone to capture a UFO video but probably doesn't have the skill to create such a high quality fake. It also matches the "tic tac" shape described by the most credible witnesses ever, the US Navy pilots.
- Animats 7y ago
  Empty supply canister or a wing tank being dropped? There's a USAF base nearby.
  - earthtourist 7y ago
    Those seem like good guesses. Either seems plausible to me. It does some weird mid-air pause thing at 0:32. And generally seems to be going horizontal or even increasing in altitude. Maybe that's just momentum? It could also have tiny wings that are catching some air? But it looks very symmetrical and also reflective. The drop tanks I could find all look more aerodynamic and dull. I couldn't find any good videos of drop tanks being dropped. Not sure what kind of supply canister it could be. I'd love to know definitively because this is the first video I've seen that seems at all interesting.

jcrawfordor 7y ago

Evidently "Popular Mechanics is ripping open the U.S. government’s massive UFO problem" but not bothering to proofread. Yes, it seems a bit immature and pedantic to bother over mechanical errors in the text. But such clear mistakes in the published text (e.g. "intuitive" when they meant "initiative") does not speak well to their credibility as a newsgathering organization. Unfortunately it seems like there has been a general decay in how carefully published material is proofread, I find a surprising number of typos and mechanics problems in books as well. I've found Packt to be especially egregious in this regard, many of their books seem to have been written by a non-native speaker and then never proofread at all. Edit: it also strikes me as a bit iffy to introduce George Knapp as a KLAS reporter without mentioning his extensive involvement in the UFO community including hosting Coast to Coast AM. Whether fair or not this would lead many people (including myself) to view his information as generally less credible.

zuckluni 7y ago
Solid skeptical rebuttal...
- jcrawfordor 7y ago
  I intend this less as a criticism of the material and more as a criticism of Popular Mechanics. I do have plenty of criticism of the material but it's a little more substantial than an apparent lack of copy editing. The introduction of the article really plays up its significance and this is clearly intended to be a big feature piece for PopMech. But it introduces very little new material to people who follow this issue and, as I was mentioning, doesn't even seem to have been carefully prepared for publication.

jml7c5 7y ago

I'm disappointed by this article. There is an amazing story here, and the author missed it: a collection of UFO believers and pseudoscientific quacks manage to get $26 million in funding from the US government. They produce mostly nonsense, yet somehow the project runs for years. The author collected all the pieces to tell the story, but wrote yet another "well, I'll let you decide, but it seems there's something to it ;)" article. I mean come on, look at the people involved! Look at the papers they've written and the views they've espoused! There's all sorts of nonsense: remote viewing, telekinesis, harnessing zero-point energy, anti-gravity. The guy who received most of the funds believes Skinwalker Ranch is some sort of nexus for paranormal activity! This could have been a great story, but the author was just too damn credulous.

stult 7y ago
A slightly more charitable interpretation: DoD hired a bunch of loonies to keep Harry Reid happy and they used the opportunity to evaluate whether public information about UFOs could be used to compromise actual SAP research projects (imagine if the conclusions of the report had been, “yeah this particular set of sightings could easily be explained by this hypothetical near future technology” and the tech described was an actual black project). Which actually isn’t a terrible idea from a counter intelligence perspective, though they definitely over paid for the product. Ultimately that’s on Harry Reid’s shoulders, though.
zuckluni 7y ago
the first two are real, I've seen it. RV is used as a signal for stock picking, is a not very well known but real niche industry. There are people who consistently perform above 75%. telekinesis is real, but humans are pretty weak at it. just watch YouTube. as for the last two, I haven't seen anything that proves it but the reports of tech and others stuff make it sound possible. your editorial stance is just one of many possibilities ellipsis why you so attached to it?
tgflynn 7y ago
Yeah, one possible explanation for a lot of this is that the US military has been scammed by a bunch of quacks and they lack personnel with sufficient scientific competence to evaluate what they are being sold. I don't see how it could explain the 2004 Nimitz incident though.

andrewflnr 7y ago

> Mention of Skinwalker Ranch in Utah as a “possible laboratory for studying other intelligences and possible interdimensional phenomena.” Using the word "interdimensional", rather than something more precise, smells like bullshit. Specifically, it sounds more like pop scifi than actual science. A "dimension" is an axis, not a universe, and I expect someone writing a serious document for the government about anything, much less ETI, to use the word correctly.Then again, I've been disappointed before. Anyway, I'm holding open the possibility that the whole BAASS thing is the biggest, most embarrassing contracting boondoggle of all time.

tgflynn 7y ago
I agree with some of what you say in that introducing theories for which there is absolutely no known evidence doesn't exactly help their credibility. However: > A "dimension" is an axis, not a universe, I don't think you should be so absolutest about that. How do you know that what we think of as "the universe" doesn't live entirely in a 3+1 dimensional subspace of some larger universe ?
- andrewflnr 7y ago
  I don't know that our universe isn't a subspace of some higher-dimensional structure. That has nothing to do with what the specific word "dimension" means and has always meant outside of sci-fi. There has never been a sound reason to use the word "dimension" to describe the other possibilities you mention. If you want to write a technical document about those possibilities and be taken seriously, you need to find a better term. Invent one if necessary.
  - tgflynn 7y ago
    In that case I think it's you who is misunderstanding the word. Unfortunately I haven't the time to give you a course on Linear Algebra so unless you can explain in more detail why you believe that the word "dimension" is inappropriate for the case I described I'm not going to be able to help you. I do suggest you watch this video from Carl Sagan's TV show Cosmos: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N0WjV6MmCyM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N0WjV6MmCyM

jcrawfordor 7y ago

In many, many ways, AATIP appears to be Skinwalker Ranch all over again and BAASS is NIDSci all over again. There is significant overlap between the people involved and BAASS even has an odd habit of bringing up Skinwalker Ranch repeatedly despite a lack of a clear connection. This is significant when you look at the history of NIDSci's investigation of Skinwalker Ranch, which was a fairly high profile and well-funded investigation run by essentially all the same people which, after years, produced some popular media but few or no actual results. To a cynical eye, it looks very much like Bigelow ran out of funding for his ongoing Skinwalker Ranch work (thus the undiscussed decline in actual NIDSci activity at the site despite it supposedly being an active project) and then, through some combination of wheeling and dealing and good fortune, connected with Sen. Reid to obtain a significant source of new funding to do similar work. Despite this funding being directed at UFOs generally and not Skinwalker Ranch specifically, BAASS still shows a desire to funnel that money towards Skinwalker Ranch. So, is this a case of the US Gov't working towards disclosure, or a case of Bigelow finding a new source of funding for his ongoing hobby project at Skinwalker Ranch, and the DoD and the taxpayer being taken along for the ride? The involvement of DeLonge is an interesting twist not present for the Skinwalker Ranch saga, but unsurprising considering DeLonge's longstanding interest in UFOs and apparent similarity to Bigelow (wealthy, eccentric, and interested in paranormal phenomena). DeLonge, as well as Bigelow, seems fully prepared to play the whole matter for personal benefit through TTSA. I do not question that there are interesting phenomena under the heading of UAP and that that Nimitz incident might be one of the most compelling pieces of open evidence. However, given the history of Bigelow and and almost everyone else heavily involved in BAASS, I have a very hard time beliving that the AATIP is going to take us in the direction of better understanding. I feel that it takes very little background in federal contracting, especially in the intelligence space, to fully believe that the DoD has invested tens of millions of dollars into a total flight of fancy. This has happened many times and will happen many more. Confusion and opacity in discussing the matter is completely unsurprising as a result of both the complicated confidentiality matters involved and the DoD's inherent lack of interest in being clear that it has spent tens of millions on Bigelow's hobby. I sound very critical, and I am. But I think the important point is that a lot of the popular reporting on the issue, perhaps all of it, fails to discuss the possibility that "there is no there there" and that this is quite possibly just another story of DoD inefficacy with an unusual, Blink-182 twist.

zuckluni 7y ago

to everyone theorizing. why? first, whether you say it's aliens or "the government", face it, both those concepts are black boxes to invoke to explain the unexplainable, ergo they're equivalent explanations, or different valence, same kind second, why be so quick to grasp and reduce it to a theory? why not just be a little bit comfortable with the discomfort of an unresolved tension? why just not be a little bit comfortable with an unanswered question, an unknown, a mystery, something amazing and wonderful and unable to be explained? why the need to rush to explain it reaching and grasping and expose yourself to the error of putting your need to explain it in front of actual accuracy? you can't end up with something good like that. you just satisfy your need of an explanation but why not just be comfortable with the question, with the mystery? That's a problem without secular world.... people need to get more comfortable with the mystery otherwise it's the stupid anthropomorphic point of view that says nothing a human can see outside it's tiny stupid ignorant little box exists... why not just do the easy thing and acknowledge okay there's a whole lot of fucking mystery out there I'm not going to rush to say it's this or that I'm just going to be okay with, "okay there's a lot of stuff I don't fucking know" that seems like the rationale sensible and to be honest happy perspective to take why everyone wants got to be so crazy to rationalize and theorize and reduce it to some story when nobody has any fucking idea at all? isn't that just psychosis? do yourself a favor don't believe anything just keep an open mind don't rush to believe cuz you most likely believe in something that's fucking crazy

tgflynn 7y ago
Well if humans had always followed the approach you suggest they would never have mastered fire or discovered agriculture. Would you rather be living as a hunter-gatherer or some non-human primate ?
- zuckluni 7y ago
  What i'm really saying is in this case the theorizing has gotten in it's own way, isn't that obvious? i'm saying we should try to understand, but you gotta have the courage to face the mystery first, so you can see it clearly, without these kaleidoscope distortions preventing you from ever seeing the data you need to get understanding. point of theory is to gain understanding, no? but if you're using theory as a stick to beat other people with, and if the theory is preventing people looking at the data (that you could turn into understanding), or if it's not falsifiable, then it's not helping. you can't disprove the government creates all this as a psyop. but that 'theory' discourages people from taking the evidence seriously. you also can't disprove 'it is all aliens' but that theory discourages (perhaps another set of people) from taking the data seriously. theories are good! except when they're not. and in this case they've gone fucking crazy. it's like sportsteams. there's no rationality. and science won't touch it, that's the problem. these pathetic theories are in way. they might be fun (to cheer for) but they're not helping understanding. that's what i'm saying. that's the problem. or one of them, duh.

PaulRobinson 7y ago

At the risk of sound like a crank, this book convinced me of quite a few things: https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/750010.Witness_to_Roswell https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/750010.Witness_to_Ros... The things I came away with were: - Approx. 600 former USAAF (the precursor to the USAF) staff have admitted there was a cover-up of some description - Multiple first-hand dying testimonies or "open after I die" testimonies agree there was a craft and several beings of unknown origin that were the subject of said cover-up - Nobody with any expertise in Soviet technology believed it was within the capabilities of the Soviets. - Nitinol possesses many of the qualities of the material said to be found by multiple eyewitnesses. It was actively researched only after this incident, and the public history of it doesn't tally with some documentary evidence. And it's for those reasons I don't think anybody in the US military was prepared to just step back and accept that these strange objects were no threat or danger. Nobody has to agree on ET origin to accept that something was found that posed a threat to the country, but most people do not accept a Soviet origin. The Roswell incident showed to some that the US public were not ready for it. Highly religious people had breakdowns (they cycled in a new pastor on-base for that reason, as it happened), and some like the town Mayor really, really struggled to cope with what was going on. So imagine you're briefed on all this as a top general in the US military. Wouldn't you put some money into trying to figure out what is going on, and to do so in a way that would not alarm Americans to the point of mass hysteria? Would you not want to throw some money at some covert operations to make sure you were getting a sense of what was going on? As an aside, whilst the Roswell story has a fair bit of credibility - as many others do, it's just Roswell has more witnesses that have gone on the record - absolutely nothing that Bob Lazar has written stands up to an iota of scrutiny. That's not how security clearances work, period.

samsari 7y ago
If there really was any truth to it, then I would expect the authorities to have been for the last several decades quietly encouraging Hollywood et al to produce certain films and tv series. Media which would introduce and normalise some concepts so as to soften the blow when the eventual revelation of whatever it was about Roswell that people in the know found so difficult to deal with.