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I don't believe there is a shortcut for "hacking" languages. I'm a diplomat, and currently learning my fourth language to the C1+ level. When we learn languag

I don't believe there is a shortcut for "hacking" languages. I'm a diplomat, and currently learning my fourth language to the C1+ level. When we learn languages, it's a full time job. It was 9 months to learn Mandarin to a B1, 6 months to a C1+ in Spanish, and I'm currently at a B1 in Estonian after 5 months. There are several things I think are crucial after years of full time study (note: this assumes you're going for professional fluency, not just touring around the country where interactions are largely scripted and predictable): * There is no substitute for production - you must speak the language with a native speaker (not an app) and talk about topics that are relevant to the kind of scenarios you anticipate. We spend the first several months discussing current events in target language - at first scripted, then later free form. This builds vocabulary and helps fluency. This is quickly expanded to discussing current events in depth and participating in mock debates. * Give mini presentations - target 3-5 minutes of talking about a relevant topic with little prep time. The difference between intermediate and advanced is the ability to move from discussing only facts to making a coherent argument. Native speakers will often not be able to follow your train of thought without learning to connect cause and effect using structures appropriate for your language. * Interview native speakers - prepare 2-3 questions about a particular topic and check your comprehension by translating their answers to English. This obviously helps build your comprehension, but also helps to learn to "automate" comprehension while you are thinking about something else. If you can take notes in English while a native speaker is talking at normal speed (and achieving 90%+ accuracy), it will make it easier for you to participate in normal speed conversations. * Read target language news - this is critical for expanding vocabulary and learning colocations - knowing what verbs are used in particular contexts (e.g., do they say "I talked with X" or "I talked to X". Do they say country X shot, launched, or threw a rocket?) Bottom line - language learning is not just about the number of hours you put in. The quality and type of practice you do matters a lot. You aren't going to be fluent via Duolingo alone. You need to put in the time using structured practice with native speakers to really learn anything.

billfruit 7y ago
Very good inputs, but these may not help with languages like Latin which aren't actively spoken or used in present day communication.
- schoen 7y ago
  There are some great spoken Latin programs out there. See https://latin.org/ https://latin.org/ and https://www.paideiainstitute.org/ https://www.paideiainstitute.org/, for example.
mantap 7y ago
Before learning a language it's essential to enumerate your goals and determine not just the level of fluency that you desire but what part of the language you wish to learn. A diplomat is going to need to learn a different vocabulary and register to someone who is e.g. a chef. A diplomat or businessperson is going to need to speak formally and correctly, whereas others might find it more useful to learn slang terms and the informal register.
- raindropm 7y ago
  Same as with learning anything I guess. Deliberate learning (or specify what part you want to learn) is much more effective than learning broadly without any aim or specific goals in mind.
sidmitra 7y ago
> difference between intermediate and advanced is the ability to move from discussing only facts to making a coherent argument. This is a brilliant point and never thought about it this way. I've spoken spanish for 5 years but i've always felt some things lacking when i've tried to make an coherent argument about politics for eg. One more thing i'd like to add is 'humor'. If you can make jokes or be sarcastic to natives in their language, then you've definitely crossed another barrier.
- jacquesm 7y ago
  I learned Polish mostly by telling jokes and having people tell jokes to me. Fortunately both Polish and Dutch have a near endless repertoire of them. Many jokes rely on language skills in order to be funny you have to at least get to the point where it can be explained to you. And of course, the immediate pay-off is that you'll hear a funny joke which is good for short term motivation. Beyond that humor is very much cultural and learning a language through humor immediately exposes you to the culture in a way that talking about current events would not.
- oblio 7y ago
  And you definitely need to cross that barrier if your goal is to integrate in a community, for good. Otherwise you'll always be an outsider.
koenigdavidmj 7y ago
Can you write a bit about how you found HN? It’s a source of slight fascination when non-tech people stumble into this world.
- BTBurke 7y ago
  I was an engineer, served in the military, and programming is now a hobby. Not all diplomats are political science or economics majors. Policy touches so many sectors that it's useful to have people with backgrounds in many areas. It's not uncommon to have prior software engineers, teachers, etc in the foreign service.
- asperous 7y ago
  In case he doesn't reply, based on the profile in his bio looks like he has a degree in E.E. and used to manage technology projects for the government.
rajlego 7y ago
Have you heard of Stephen Krashen's Input Hypothesis? [1] There are a couple of parts to it but it essentially says that linguistic competence (a fancy way to say your innate knowledge of a language) only increases when you take in input. If you talk all day that doesn't really make you any better (since you don't learn anything new) unless you use a process like deliberate feedback to be corrected. Personally I think it's much more useful to thus focus on reading/listening to start and then later move on to speaking/writing. I learned Spanish through normal school and while I can speak fast the fact that I haven't had much real input really shows since I'm generally just translating English -> spanish and I don't know if I'm using grammar right since I haven't heard it enough. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Input_hypothesis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Input_hypothesis
- thedirt0115 7y ago
  What of the folks who have watched countless hours of anime, but still can't speak Japanese? Input alone is not enough, at least not for adults wanting to become fluent from what I've seen.
  - Ghjklov 7y ago
    I think that’s more of a lack of initiative to learn. They may not know how to speak Japanese, but they can listen to it and be able to discern words from each other and be able to grasp ongoing conversations. After years of watching anime and learning kana and even a number of kanji, Japanese doesn’t seem hard at all anymore. I just lack the initiative or immediate need to advance my skills since I live in America. Now French, they speak so freaking fast. I wonder if that’ll change after I watch enough French content.
    - thedirt0115 7y ago
      I agree about lack of initiative, I just don't want people thinking if they just listen to enough music/TV/whatever they'll magically be able to speak and understand. That only seems to work in children (at least to seem like a native speaker to other native apeakers). It takes work for is adults! For French, it will seem slower after time, don't worry! French in particular has a lot of slurring, but it is predictable after learning the rules (and there are rules!). I recommend the book "The Sounds of French". The new "Ad Vitam" on Netflix is entertaining and you can hear some reasonable-speed modern French. I have some beginner book/audio recommendations if you want.
animalnewbie 7y ago
I've seen computational biologists , mechanical engineers , non-programmjng entrepreneurs but what does a diplomat do on HN?
- BTBurke 7y ago
  Programming is now a hobby and I still do some open source stuff and push out various side projects for fun. Eventually I'll have to retire and so I always hope some of my side projects will take off to supplement my retirement income.
- sfgweilr4f 7y ago
  Tech news with hacker directed filtering.
- orthoxerox 7y ago
  Why can't a diplomat have a tech-related hobby? Most people outside tech have hobbies that are unrelated to their daily job.
  - oblio 7y ago
    Heck, I work in tech and my hobby is history. I would have probably majored in history if it didn't lead to a crappy career where I'm from.
- wtmt 7y ago
  It could be someone who was in tech or was educated (formal or by oneself) on tech but switched to being a diplomat on seeing opportunities to make a better difference with their skills. Depending on the area of work, diplomats could highly benefit in today’s world by understanding tech better. We have allowed tech to dictate policies for too long and playing catch up. So any diplomat who understands tech well would be a great asset to policy makers and decision makers.
- ryanmercer 7y ago
  >but what does a diplomat do on HN? Learn things? I'm none of the things you listed, nor do I do anything remotely related to computer sciences, but I still frequent HN.
jacquesm 7y ago
> check your comprehension by translating their answers to English Why to English?
- kelnos 7y ago
  I assume he means "to your native language", not to English, specifically.
psychoslave 7y ago
Thank you very much for this feedback. I'm estonished of the fact that you target an on the fly translation to your (presumably) native language. I mean, for me it seems like a far harder task than to note what you understand in the source language directly. Actually, I often find that I can fluently exchange with someone speaking English (which is not my native language), but if a third person ask me to translate, it's really a higher level of complexity to find the relevant expressions. I understand that at the start, one feel more at ease to use its know point of reference in languages already known, but at some point this scaffold is only an additional layer that slows down your expression flow, isn't it?
- BTBurke 7y ago
  We do a lot of on the fly translations. In meetings, we may have to translate for an Ambassador or senior official that doesn't speak the language. Depending on the topic, it may not be appropriate to bring a professional translator, so we do the best we can. We also meet with a wide variety of people and take copious notes. I personally take notes in a mix of English and the local language, but mostly in English because I have my own shorthand to help me remember what is said. It's hard to develop that kind of shorthand in a foreign language without writing everything and that is too slow for a normal conversation.
- bluGill 7y ago
  Since he is a diplomat I expect that the ability to translate is sometimes more important that his own understanding. He doesn't directly have power to make decisions, he needs to bring everything back to the leaders of his country. (of course he will know what the goals of his country are and what compromises are acceptable, but his decisions are subject to review)
namelosw 7y ago
Totally agree on there is no shortcut for "hacking" languages. But at the same time "The quality and type of practice you do matters a lot" as you've said. And also, for learning languages, one way could be significantly less painful than others. I grew up in China, where almost every student struggles so much on English learning, every day. I found myself very easy to pass every exam and beating the average, without listening to the lectures or doing any homework - simply by playing video games (especially RPG). I was/am by no means excellent at English, but it was almost a totally free perk for me. Basically video games are: 1. Designed to be both engaging and challenging, whereas schools suck at those so much. 2. Have specific and meaningful targets, if you failed to understand what's going on or what's the mechanism you're not likely to play along. 3. Including scenarios and plots. A lot of reading and listening activities. You don't have to appoint a teacher or native speaker to talk with you. You can start anytime you want (except I have intolerant parents so I have to play it sneakily). 4. Cheap.
- ChuckNorris89 7y ago
  I grew up in Eastern Europe and had the same experience, ending up speaking English near natively as a kid thanks to watching undubbed cartoons on BBC, Cartoon Network and Fox Kids, Hollywood movies and playing video games. I thought this was the case across all of Europe but found out that in the rich part of Europe all entertainment is dubbed in the local language so youngsters there had worse English skills than I expected for such wealthy nations. It's probably one of the reason so many US tech companies have opened up shop here, other than lower wages.
  - Goz3rr 7y ago
    Many movies and series we get in the Netherlands are not dubbed either, only subbed. Whenever I catch a glimpse of TV in Germany I'm always bothered by the horrible dubs. Dutch, English, French, and German are also all mandatory subjects in school for us.
  - tartoran 7y ago
    I think the intent was to preserve ‘national’ culture but perhaps it was also thought out with brain drain in mind. At an individual level, knowing english fluently is quite empowering, your work opportunities expand greatly. At a wider level this could be quite devastating for a country and its economy if the smartest folks find work elsewhere.
dwnvoted2hell 7y ago
And probably if there was an effective hack, then immersive language schooling, which is something many diplomats encourage, at least through the IB program, probably would have never been developed.
echelon 7y ago
Could you expand upon this? How many hours a day do you study? Are you learning in structured classes? What curriculum are you using? Do you study while residing in a country that speaks the language? Are you saying it takes a year and a half to reach fluency if you take it on as a full time job?
- BTBurke 7y ago
  We have a foreign language institute outside Washington DC where they teach about 70 languages. It's an organized class for 5 hours a day in small groups with a native speaker as the teacher. There is usually an additional 2-5 hours of independent study/homework depending on the complexity of the language. Professional fluency takes between 24 and 88 weeks depending on the difficulty of the language. Spanish is 24, Mandarin would be 88. "Hard" languages like Finnish and Estonian are in the middle at 44. We test with native speakers at the end to determine our level on a 5 point scale. Each of our embassy jobs has an associated language requirement, usually 3/3, which means professionally fluent in speaking and reading.

billfruit 7y ago

Very good inputs, but these may not help with languages like Latin which aren't actively spoken or used in present day communication.

schoen 7y ago
There are some great spoken Latin programs out there. See https://latin.org/ https://latin.org/ and https://www.paideiainstitute.org/ https://www.paideiainstitute.org/, for example.

mantap 7y ago

Before learning a language it's essential to enumerate your goals and determine not just the level of fluency that you desire but what part of the language you wish to learn. A diplomat is going to need to learn a different vocabulary and register to someone who is e.g. a chef. A diplomat or businessperson is going to need to speak formally and correctly, whereas others might find it more useful to learn slang terms and the informal register.

raindropm 7y ago
Same as with learning anything I guess. Deliberate learning (or specify what part you want to learn) is much more effective than learning broadly without any aim or specific goals in mind.

sidmitra 7y ago

> difference between intermediate and advanced is the ability to move from discussing only facts to making a coherent argument. This is a brilliant point and never thought about it this way. I've spoken spanish for 5 years but i've always felt some things lacking when i've tried to make an coherent argument about politics for eg. One more thing i'd like to add is 'humor'. If you can make jokes or be sarcastic to natives in their language, then you've definitely crossed another barrier.

jacquesm 7y ago
I learned Polish mostly by telling jokes and having people tell jokes to me. Fortunately both Polish and Dutch have a near endless repertoire of them. Many jokes rely on language skills in order to be funny you have to at least get to the point where it can be explained to you. And of course, the immediate pay-off is that you'll hear a funny joke which is good for short term motivation. Beyond that humor is very much cultural and learning a language through humor immediately exposes you to the culture in a way that talking about current events would not.
oblio 7y ago
And you definitely need to cross that barrier if your goal is to integrate in a community, for good. Otherwise you'll always be an outsider.

koenigdavidmj 7y ago

Can you write a bit about how you found HN? It’s a source of slight fascination when non-tech people stumble into this world.

BTBurke 7y ago
I was an engineer, served in the military, and programming is now a hobby. Not all diplomats are political science or economics majors. Policy touches so many sectors that it's useful to have people with backgrounds in many areas. It's not uncommon to have prior software engineers, teachers, etc in the foreign service.
asperous 7y ago
In case he doesn't reply, based on the profile in his bio looks like he has a degree in E.E. and used to manage technology projects for the government.

rajlego 7y ago

Have you heard of Stephen Krashen's Input Hypothesis? [1] There are a couple of parts to it but it essentially says that linguistic competence (a fancy way to say your innate knowledge of a language) only increases when you take in input. If you talk all day that doesn't really make you any better (since you don't learn anything new) unless you use a process like deliberate feedback to be corrected. Personally I think it's much more useful to thus focus on reading/listening to start and then later move on to speaking/writing. I learned Spanish through normal school and while I can speak fast the fact that I haven't had much real input really shows since I'm generally just translating English -> spanish and I don't know if I'm using grammar right since I haven't heard it enough. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Input_hypothesis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Input_hypothesis

thedirt0115 7y ago
What of the folks who have watched countless hours of anime, but still can't speak Japanese? Input alone is not enough, at least not for adults wanting to become fluent from what I've seen.
- Ghjklov 7y ago
  I think that’s more of a lack of initiative to learn. They may not know how to speak Japanese, but they can listen to it and be able to discern words from each other and be able to grasp ongoing conversations. After years of watching anime and learning kana and even a number of kanji, Japanese doesn’t seem hard at all anymore. I just lack the initiative or immediate need to advance my skills since I live in America. Now French, they speak so freaking fast. I wonder if that’ll change after I watch enough French content.
  - thedirt0115 7y ago
    I agree about lack of initiative, I just don't want people thinking if they just listen to enough music/TV/whatever they'll magically be able to speak and understand. That only seems to work in children (at least to seem like a native speaker to other native apeakers). It takes work for is adults! For French, it will seem slower after time, don't worry! French in particular has a lot of slurring, but it is predictable after learning the rules (and there are rules!). I recommend the book "The Sounds of French". The new "Ad Vitam" on Netflix is entertaining and you can hear some reasonable-speed modern French. I have some beginner book/audio recommendations if you want.

animalnewbie 7y ago

I've seen computational biologists , mechanical engineers , non-programmjng entrepreneurs but what does a diplomat do on HN?

BTBurke 7y ago
Programming is now a hobby and I still do some open source stuff and push out various side projects for fun. Eventually I'll have to retire and so I always hope some of my side projects will take off to supplement my retirement income.
sfgweilr4f 7y ago
Tech news with hacker directed filtering.
orthoxerox 7y ago
Why can't a diplomat have a tech-related hobby? Most people outside tech have hobbies that are unrelated to their daily job.
- oblio 7y ago
  Heck, I work in tech and my hobby is history. I would have probably majored in history if it didn't lead to a crappy career where I'm from.
wtmt 7y ago
It could be someone who was in tech or was educated (formal or by oneself) on tech but switched to being a diplomat on seeing opportunities to make a better difference with their skills. Depending on the area of work, diplomats could highly benefit in today’s world by understanding tech better. We have allowed tech to dictate policies for too long and playing catch up. So any diplomat who understands tech well would be a great asset to policy makers and decision makers.
ryanmercer 7y ago
>but what does a diplomat do on HN? Learn things? I'm none of the things you listed, nor do I do anything remotely related to computer sciences, but I still frequent HN.

jacquesm 7y ago

> check your comprehension by translating their answers to English Why to English?

kelnos 7y ago
I assume he means "to your native language", not to English, specifically.

psychoslave 7y ago

Thank you very much for this feedback. I'm estonished of the fact that you target an on the fly translation to your (presumably) native language. I mean, for me it seems like a far harder task than to note what you understand in the source language directly. Actually, I often find that I can fluently exchange with someone speaking English (which is not my native language), but if a third person ask me to translate, it's really a higher level of complexity to find the relevant expressions. I understand that at the start, one feel more at ease to use its know point of reference in languages already known, but at some point this scaffold is only an additional layer that slows down your expression flow, isn't it?

BTBurke 7y ago
We do a lot of on the fly translations. In meetings, we may have to translate for an Ambassador or senior official that doesn't speak the language. Depending on the topic, it may not be appropriate to bring a professional translator, so we do the best we can. We also meet with a wide variety of people and take copious notes. I personally take notes in a mix of English and the local language, but mostly in English because I have my own shorthand to help me remember what is said. It's hard to develop that kind of shorthand in a foreign language without writing everything and that is too slow for a normal conversation.
bluGill 7y ago
Since he is a diplomat I expect that the ability to translate is sometimes more important that his own understanding. He doesn't directly have power to make decisions, he needs to bring everything back to the leaders of his country. (of course he will know what the goals of his country are and what compromises are acceptable, but his decisions are subject to review)

namelosw 7y ago

Totally agree on there is no shortcut for "hacking" languages. But at the same time "The quality and type of practice you do matters a lot" as you've said. And also, for learning languages, one way could be significantly less painful than others. I grew up in China, where almost every student struggles so much on English learning, every day. I found myself very easy to pass every exam and beating the average, without listening to the lectures or doing any homework - simply by playing video games (especially RPG). I was/am by no means excellent at English, but it was almost a totally free perk for me. Basically video games are: 1. Designed to be both engaging and challenging, whereas schools suck at those so much. 2. Have specific and meaningful targets, if you failed to understand what's going on or what's the mechanism you're not likely to play along. 3. Including scenarios and plots. A lot of reading and listening activities. You don't have to appoint a teacher or native speaker to talk with you. You can start anytime you want (except I have intolerant parents so I have to play it sneakily). 4. Cheap.

ChuckNorris89 7y ago
I grew up in Eastern Europe and had the same experience, ending up speaking English near natively as a kid thanks to watching undubbed cartoons on BBC, Cartoon Network and Fox Kids, Hollywood movies and playing video games. I thought this was the case across all of Europe but found out that in the rich part of Europe all entertainment is dubbed in the local language so youngsters there had worse English skills than I expected for such wealthy nations. It's probably one of the reason so many US tech companies have opened up shop here, other than lower wages.
- Goz3rr 7y ago
  Many movies and series we get in the Netherlands are not dubbed either, only subbed. Whenever I catch a glimpse of TV in Germany I'm always bothered by the horrible dubs. Dutch, English, French, and German are also all mandatory subjects in school for us.
- tartoran 7y ago
  I think the intent was to preserve ‘national’ culture but perhaps it was also thought out with brain drain in mind. At an individual level, knowing english fluently is quite empowering, your work opportunities expand greatly. At a wider level this could be quite devastating for a country and its economy if the smartest folks find work elsewhere.

dwnvoted2hell 7y ago

And probably if there was an effective hack, then immersive language schooling, which is something many diplomats encourage, at least through the IB program, probably would have never been developed.

echelon 7y ago

Could you expand upon this? How many hours a day do you study? Are you learning in structured classes? What curriculum are you using? Do you study while residing in a country that speaks the language? Are you saying it takes a year and a half to reach fluency if you take it on as a full time job?

BTBurke 7y ago
We have a foreign language institute outside Washington DC where they teach about 70 languages. It's an organized class for 5 hours a day in small groups with a native speaker as the teacher. There is usually an additional 2-5 hours of independent study/homework depending on the complexity of the language. Professional fluency takes between 24 and 88 weeks depending on the difficulty of the language. Spanish is 24, Mandarin would be 88. "Hard" languages like Finnish and Estonian are in the middle at 44. We test with native speakers at the end to determine our level on a 5 point scale. Each of our embassy jobs has an associated language requirement, usually 3/3, which means professionally fluent in speaking and reading.