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South korean developer here. I am quite aware of government plans for software since I've done my service as a software developer for army. There is a company

South korean developer here. I am quite aware of government plans for software since I've done my service as a software developer for army. There is a company called TmaxSoft which advertises itfself as only builders to the 'Korean OS'. Fueled by relatively high patriotism shared by average koreans, the government had been subsidizing this firm for more than 10 years. Despite the effort to liberate the nation from a private US firm this wasn't successful so far: first they tried to build their own kernel which froze at the public demo. After realizing it was dumb to write kernel from scratch, they began focusing on tuning the visual interface. The result was criticism that is was just a pathetic clone of MintOS(linux distro). Due to bureaucratic debt over 10+ years, I think those government officials are desparately trying to meet an end to this mad project. The money and time they've spent well deserves a spot in governmental future plan in converting all american OS: Windows into Homemade korean government friendly OS.

yingw787 7y ago
Ah, live demos are hard :P There's no shame in trying, and no shame in pivoting after a cost/benefit analysis, and sticking with Windows. In contrast, North Korea maintains its own Linux distro (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Star_OS#Version_4.0 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Star_OS#Version_4.0) and has for ten to twenty years, probably because they can't trust any proprietary software and they're not tied to Windows-happy U.S. DoD, and I would rather live in South Korea and use Windows than live in North Korea and use Linux.
- pcr910303 7y ago
  Not OP, but: > There's no shame in trying, and no shame in pivoting after a cost/benefit analysis, and sticking with Windows. It wouldn’t been a shame if TmaxOS was advertised as a BSD distribution with Windows integration through Wine from the start — it advertises itself as a ‘pure korean OS’ without any mentions of BSD (which I’m pretty sure is a license violation) our Wine. It later moved onto the Linux kernel and a more standard Linux environment (with some BSD components left over), and a custom DE, and is currently advertising itself as a Linux distribution. I’ve heard it is actually in a fairly useable state... but the OS already got a really bad rap.
pcr910303 7y ago
Hello, nice to meet another Korean (still wake at 4AM) on HN! :-) > The result was criticism that is was just a pathetic clone of MintOS(linux distro). I’m pretty sure you’re mixing up Harmonica with Tmax — Harmonica is based on Linux Mint (and is a pretty well operated open source project) while Tmax uses the Linux kernel, some BSD components and a custom desktop environment that features a rip-off interface of Windows.
- totorovirus 7y ago
  thanks for pointing this out :=)
- dmix 7y ago
  Found a page with some information + a screenshot of Harmonica: https://linuxreviews.org/HamoniKR https://linuxreviews.org/HamoniKR There wasn't any english stuff for Tmax distro that I could find... idk why they don't just adopt Debian + Gnome for their desktop stuff with some Korean development work on top of that. It's a great looking UI/UX and would be perfect especially if most of the software is via the browser/SaaS anyway. Or some occasional wine translations where needed. But I guess that's just how governments work and their constant obsessions with the sunk cost fallacy. Edit: Harmonica seems to be doing the right thing already, from the review: > However, it is, at it's core, just Linux Minux with two special PPAs for Koreans on top. This isn't something to shame them for, this is how it should be done.
  - pcr910303 7y ago
    > dk why they don't just adopt Debian + Gnome for their desktop stuff with some Korean development work on top of that. It's a great looking UI/UX and would be perfect especially if most of the software is via the browser/SaaS anyway. Or some occasional wine translations where needed. Well, (as you mentioned in the edit) it doesn’t create something totally new — AFAIK it uses the cinnamon DE. Also, you mentioned about being ‘perfect’... but you will be surprised in the level of CJK support on any open source software. Even the big ones don’t support CJK well, unless the software uses the OS toolkit & operating system gives you for free — and Linux doesn’t. Software like Firefox’s CJK input is frequently broken in macOS (they don’t use Cocoa), and on most Linux distributions everything is just terrible (including Ubuntu). That’s the reason for using a local distribution. > This isn't something to shame them for, this is how it should be done. It could be great if we could just use Linux Mint or Ubuntu and call it a day; Linux people, please stop considering input managers and other UTF-8 stuff as bloat... or you will never get meaningful adoption to ordinary users in the CJK.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
totorovirus 7y ago
More on TMaxSoft. This software firm builds many 'hard' softwares like OS, DBMS or even MapReduce data processing cluster(like hadoop and spark). One might naturally ask 'why build a wheel while there are plenty already built by open source developers?' and economically aware person might also ask 'how are selling their products while competing against ubuntu, postgresql, spark?' Cloning something from scratch and learning advanced technology in its process is a familiar thing in Korea. Enforcing home grown products to average customers, subsidizing one specific firm to take all domestic market share is how Samsung and Hyundai made its way to top global firms. So I guess the mental background for replacing OS by home made OS is similar to that which successfully grew Samsung. They are willing to pay off a lot of money so that a Korean firm outgrows Google, Facebook or Apple. An average developer knows it is a stupid plan to replicate linux or mysql from scratch. But government officials' heart still remain in the golden age when the very strategy they are executing with was valid for Samsung or Hyundai. The way this firm hires its employees is tighly coupled with government. In our country all men are obliged to military service. However there are couple of options: 1. B.S holders: no exemption. 2 years in a random role. 2. M.S holders: you get to work for private firm for 3 years. Called 'special research agents'. Mostly work for engineering related firms. 3. Ph.D holders: you are exempted as soon as you become a Ph.D holder. All these exemption rules according to the level of scholastic degree is to foster R&D capability of our nation. And here comes a perky question: 'What happens to Ph.D dropouts?' As some might have guessed: 'You go to TmaxSoft, get hefty salary, get a girl, get married.' I wouldn't say much about it if there weren't a fact that really bugs me. They do hoard M.S holders from best colleges, however the graduate students they hire aren't limited to CS majors. I've seen multiple chemistry majors or industrial engineering majors who dropped out of Ph.D course doing software engineering there. I have no idea how they could 'train' a non CS major to write code for hard core stuffs like OS or DBMS. And they tell the government officials that they have the best pool of engineers from prestigious colleges, which would ease the government to making decision to subsidize this firm.
- 6510 7y ago
  > I have no idea how they could 'train' a non CS major to write code for hard core stuffs like OS or DBMS. There is probably someone better fit to describe this [hah!] but schools aren't really designed to teach something specific. It is more about creating hard working drones. Doing anything meaningful in [say] chemistry is harder than brainfuck.
coldtea 7y ago
>Despite the effort to liberate the nation from a private US firm this wasn't successful so far: first they tried to build their own kernel which froze at the public demo. So? Linux, Windows, Mac OS, have all frozen during all kinds of public demos. >After realizing it was dumb to write kernel from scratch Is it? A nation state, especially one the size of Korea, should have no problem finding resources for writing a kernel from scratch - to a level suitable for running POSIX software and a modern UNIX-like userland.
- smabie 7y ago
  But, like, why?
  - BlueTemplar 7y ago
    Hmm, maybe afraid that otherwise someone might have slipped a backdoor in, like with Dual_EC_DRBG ?
  - smallstepforman 7y ago
    To ensure foreign intelligence agencies have reduced visibility? To prop up local industry? Support customisations? Lots of valid reasons to roll your own OS, especially for National organisations. The question I have is isn’t it obvious?
deaddodo 7y ago
> first they tried to build their own kernel which froze at the public demo Do you have a video of this? I found mention of it, and many videos of TmaxDay and the like; but without more context or speaking Korean, I'm finding it hard to locate.
- totorovirus 7y ago
  I actually heard this from ex-tmax engineer. One of the engineer was debugging the scheduler a day before demo day, poking here and there, inserting sleep(10); to random places. He merged his debug commit without deleting sleeps so the OS froze on demo. what this implies: they don't have tests, no code review. And they're still developing OS.
  - esjeon 7y ago
    ... and the entire project was sorta clean room copy of FOSS projects, like BSD and WINE. ... and their new TMax OS is just BSD w/ WINE. Oh god...
- lasagnaphil 7y ago
  Here’s the footage: https://youtu.be/OylmhpqptkY https://youtu.be/OylmhpqptkY
redis_mlc 7y ago
I evaluated China's Red Flag Linux back in the day, around 2010. They took a common linux distro, added Chinese fonts, and made a nice graphical login screen. I was impressed at how smooth the final result was actually. If you're familiar with the final linux distros based on KDE (pre-Gnome 3), that's what it looked like. So if you're a government IT staffer, study the history of Red Flag Linux.
- modo_mario 7y ago
  Deepin a modern Chinese distro used in some gov i heard is also surprisingly good looking. Then there's WPS which now tends to ask me to login and whatnot a bit too much but i remember being delighted with it because back in the day it looked pretty and handled the garbage MS office stuff really well whereas libre and open office faltered here and there enough to be annoying.
StreamBright 7y ago
Out of curiosity: why is it dumb to build a kernel from scratch? There are several such projects on Github with decent progress. Many of them are featured on HN time to time. Google also thinks that writing a new kernel is a great idea. I share their vision in this particular matter. We need a new kernel that was designed and implemented taking into consideration the last dew decades worth os research, especially into security and reliability.
- lmm 7y ago
  It's pretty dumb for a consumer OS intended to run on commodity PCs, because the hard part is device drivers for all the hardware out there, and existing kernel projects are way ahead of you on that one. It might make sense in an environment where you have much more control over your hardware platform.

yingw787 7y ago

Ah, live demos are hard :P There's no shame in trying, and no shame in pivoting after a cost/benefit analysis, and sticking with Windows. In contrast, North Korea maintains its own Linux distro (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Star_OS#Version_4.0 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Star_OS#Version_4.0) and has for ten to twenty years, probably because they can't trust any proprietary software and they're not tied to Windows-happy U.S. DoD, and I would rather live in South Korea and use Windows than live in North Korea and use Linux.

pcr910303 7y ago
Not OP, but: > There's no shame in trying, and no shame in pivoting after a cost/benefit analysis, and sticking with Windows. It wouldn’t been a shame if TmaxOS was advertised as a BSD distribution with Windows integration through Wine from the start — it advertises itself as a ‘pure korean OS’ without any mentions of BSD (which I’m pretty sure is a license violation) our Wine. It later moved onto the Linux kernel and a more standard Linux environment (with some BSD components left over), and a custom DE, and is currently advertising itself as a Linux distribution. I’ve heard it is actually in a fairly useable state... but the OS already got a really bad rap.

pcr910303 7y ago

Hello, nice to meet another Korean (still wake at 4AM) on HN! :-) > The result was criticism that is was just a pathetic clone of MintOS(linux distro). I’m pretty sure you’re mixing up Harmonica with Tmax — Harmonica is based on Linux Mint (and is a pretty well operated open source project) while Tmax uses the Linux kernel, some BSD components and a custom desktop environment that features a rip-off interface of Windows.

totorovirus 7y ago
thanks for pointing this out :=)
dmix 7y ago
Found a page with some information + a screenshot of Harmonica: https://linuxreviews.org/HamoniKR https://linuxreviews.org/HamoniKR There wasn't any english stuff for Tmax distro that I could find... idk why they don't just adopt Debian + Gnome for their desktop stuff with some Korean development work on top of that. It's a great looking UI/UX and would be perfect especially if most of the software is via the browser/SaaS anyway. Or some occasional wine translations where needed. But I guess that's just how governments work and their constant obsessions with the sunk cost fallacy. Edit: Harmonica seems to be doing the right thing already, from the review: > However, it is, at it's core, just Linux Minux with two special PPAs for Koreans on top. This isn't something to shame them for, this is how it should be done.
- pcr910303 7y ago
  > dk why they don't just adopt Debian + Gnome for their desktop stuff with some Korean development work on top of that. It's a great looking UI/UX and would be perfect especially if most of the software is via the browser/SaaS anyway. Or some occasional wine translations where needed. Well, (as you mentioned in the edit) it doesn’t create something totally new — AFAIK it uses the cinnamon DE. Also, you mentioned about being ‘perfect’... but you will be surprised in the level of CJK support on any open source software. Even the big ones don’t support CJK well, unless the software uses the OS toolkit & operating system gives you for free — and Linux doesn’t. Software like Firefox’s CJK input is frequently broken in macOS (they don’t use Cocoa), and on most Linux distributions everything is just terrible (including Ubuntu). That’s the reason for using a local distribution. > This isn't something to shame them for, this is how it should be done. It could be great if we could just use Linux Mint or Ubuntu and call it a day; Linux people, please stop considering input managers and other UTF-8 stuff as bloat... or you will never get meaningful adoption to ordinary users in the CJK.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

totorovirus 7y ago

More on TMaxSoft. This software firm builds many 'hard' softwares like OS, DBMS or even MapReduce data processing cluster(like hadoop and spark). One might naturally ask 'why build a wheel while there are plenty already built by open source developers?' and economically aware person might also ask 'how are selling their products while competing against ubuntu, postgresql, spark?' Cloning something from scratch and learning advanced technology in its process is a familiar thing in Korea. Enforcing home grown products to average customers, subsidizing one specific firm to take all domestic market share is how Samsung and Hyundai made its way to top global firms. So I guess the mental background for replacing OS by home made OS is similar to that which successfully grew Samsung. They are willing to pay off a lot of money so that a Korean firm outgrows Google, Facebook or Apple. An average developer knows it is a stupid plan to replicate linux or mysql from scratch. But government officials' heart still remain in the golden age when the very strategy they are executing with was valid for Samsung or Hyundai. The way this firm hires its employees is tighly coupled with government. In our country all men are obliged to military service. However there are couple of options: 1. B.S holders: no exemption. 2 years in a random role. 2. M.S holders: you get to work for private firm for 3 years. Called 'special research agents'. Mostly work for engineering related firms. 3. Ph.D holders: you are exempted as soon as you become a Ph.D holder. All these exemption rules according to the level of scholastic degree is to foster R&D capability of our nation. And here comes a perky question: 'What happens to Ph.D dropouts?' As some might have guessed: 'You go to TmaxSoft, get hefty salary, get a girl, get married.' I wouldn't say much about it if there weren't a fact that really bugs me. They do hoard M.S holders from best colleges, however the graduate students they hire aren't limited to CS majors. I've seen multiple chemistry majors or industrial engineering majors who dropped out of Ph.D course doing software engineering there. I have no idea how they could 'train' a non CS major to write code for hard core stuffs like OS or DBMS. And they tell the government officials that they have the best pool of engineers from prestigious colleges, which would ease the government to making decision to subsidize this firm.

6510 7y ago
> I have no idea how they could 'train' a non CS major to write code for hard core stuffs like OS or DBMS. There is probably someone better fit to describe this [hah!] but schools aren't really designed to teach something specific. It is more about creating hard working drones. Doing anything meaningful in [say] chemistry is harder than brainfuck.

coldtea 7y ago

>Despite the effort to liberate the nation from a private US firm this wasn't successful so far: first they tried to build their own kernel which froze at the public demo. So? Linux, Windows, Mac OS, have all frozen during all kinds of public demos. >After realizing it was dumb to write kernel from scratch Is it? A nation state, especially one the size of Korea, should have no problem finding resources for writing a kernel from scratch - to a level suitable for running POSIX software and a modern UNIX-like userland.

smabie 7y ago
But, like, why?
- BlueTemplar 7y ago
  Hmm, maybe afraid that otherwise someone might have slipped a backdoor in, like with Dual_EC_DRBG ?
- smallstepforman 7y ago
  To ensure foreign intelligence agencies have reduced visibility? To prop up local industry? Support customisations? Lots of valid reasons to roll your own OS, especially for National organisations. The question I have is isn’t it obvious?

deaddodo 7y ago

> first they tried to build their own kernel which froze at the public demo Do you have a video of this? I found mention of it, and many videos of TmaxDay and the like; but without more context or speaking Korean, I'm finding it hard to locate.

totorovirus 7y ago
I actually heard this from ex-tmax engineer. One of the engineer was debugging the scheduler a day before demo day, poking here and there, inserting sleep(10); to random places. He merged his debug commit without deleting sleeps so the OS froze on demo. what this implies: they don't have tests, no code review. And they're still developing OS.
- esjeon 7y ago
  ... and the entire project was sorta clean room copy of FOSS projects, like BSD and WINE. ... and their new TMax OS is just BSD w/ WINE. Oh god...
lasagnaphil 7y ago
Here’s the footage: https://youtu.be/OylmhpqptkY https://youtu.be/OylmhpqptkY

redis_mlc 7y ago

I evaluated China's Red Flag Linux back in the day, around 2010. They took a common linux distro, added Chinese fonts, and made a nice graphical login screen. I was impressed at how smooth the final result was actually. If you're familiar with the final linux distros based on KDE (pre-Gnome 3), that's what it looked like. So if you're a government IT staffer, study the history of Red Flag Linux.

modo_mario 7y ago
Deepin a modern Chinese distro used in some gov i heard is also surprisingly good looking. Then there's WPS which now tends to ask me to login and whatnot a bit too much but i remember being delighted with it because back in the day it looked pretty and handled the garbage MS office stuff really well whereas libre and open office faltered here and there enough to be annoying.

StreamBright 7y ago

Out of curiosity: why is it dumb to build a kernel from scratch? There are several such projects on Github with decent progress. Many of them are featured on HN time to time. Google also thinks that writing a new kernel is a great idea. I share their vision in this particular matter. We need a new kernel that was designed and implemented taking into consideration the last dew decades worth os research, especially into security and reliability.

lmm 7y ago
It's pretty dumb for a consumer OS intended to run on commodity PCs, because the hard part is device drivers for all the hardware out there, and existing kernel projects are way ahead of you on that one. It might make sense in an environment where you have much more control over your hardware platform.