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South Korea switching their 3.3M PCs to Linux

29athrowaway 7y ago
The office suite part is the most painful. I am now using Softmaker Freeoffice (free version of Softmaker Office). It is an excellent alternative to Libreoffice, except that it is not opensource.
- Hydraulix989 7y ago
  Most Koreans use a custom word processor called Hancom Office.
dmurray 7y ago
Is this actually likely to happen, or a negotiating manoeuvre with Microsoft?
- microcolonel 7y ago
  Last time they trusted Microsoft, they got their entire country stuck with ActiveX; that said, possibly a bit of column A, a bit of column B.
  - hsivonen 7y ago
    That was more South Korea’s own bad crypto policy’s fault than Microsoft’s fault, though.
    - pcr910303 7y ago
      > That was more South Korea’s own bad crypto policy’s fault South Korean here, I wouldn’t say it was the government’s fault to enforce better security/crypto tech on the web when banking, right? To be strict, everything really started because of the US’s IMO useless export restrictions. Then it became a legacy that couldn’t be third of for ~20 yrs. I don’t think the policy was great, but it was reasonable at the time.
      - pitaj 7y ago
        I think the point is that it wasn't better security. And nowadays it likely has no improvement or actually decreases security.
    - microcolonel 7y ago
      It was because the U.S. government placed export restrictions on Rijndael. I mean, the alternative might have been for them to just use Rijndael anyway, and that would probably have been better in the long run, but heh. Now that that stuff is out of the way, I honestly can't see why they don't (or didn't until recently?) allow Rijndael or ChaCha20.
      - modo_mario 7y ago
        Wait what? How could they even put export restrictions on it?
  - scarejunba 7y ago
    Actually, what's the net rate of money lost and people who've lost money as a result of that?
  - yongjik 7y ago
    It's not exactly SK trusted Microsoft. Rather, some idiots had this brilliant idea that if you create a piece of code that hooks directly into Windows kernel and messes around with device drivers, your users will be secure, because how would those evil hackers run keyloggers when your security plugin already hijacked keyboard events. So far so good, but then how do you disseminate this wonderful piece of security technology? By creating an ActiveX plugin and make every user download and install it before they can use your website. And since those pesky new versions of Windows will keep warning "This program may harm your computer, continue?", we just have to tell users to click "OK". But what if users are trained to always click OK and accidentally stumbles upon a fishing website? Stupid dummy users, they shouldn't have done that! If they accidentally went to a fishing website, downloaded a bad security plugin, and uploaded all their banking credentials, it's their fault! IIRC Microsoft practically begged South Korea to please stop using ActiveX, it was never a great technology and it outlived its usefulness a long time ago, could we please move on? Edit: As far as I remember, real fun started when you needed to access two banking websites. Now their security plugins start to fight each other!
    - jimmydorry 7y ago
      Well... going back further, SK was forced to do something when the US banned all crypto export above 48bit or something stupid. SK wanted 128bit and the only way they could do that was via ActiveX. A few weeks later and every bank and eStore was using the Korean rolled crypto instead of the weaksauce crypto that the browser / OS was rolled out with. You can trace all of this directly back to the combination of Microsoft and the US Government. Microsoft should have pushed back on the government's stupid demand or educated them on why it was stupid, and the government shouldn't have made that demand in the first place.
  - andrewzah 7y ago
    Further reading about activex mentioned above: * https://www.zdnet.com/article/south-koreans-use-internet-explorer-its-the-law/ https://www.zdnet.com/article/south-koreans-use-internet-exp... * https://www.forbes.com/sites/elaineramirez/2016/11/30/south-koreas-online-banking-system-is-stuck-in-1996/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/elaineramirez/2016/11/30/south-... Oh, and some required apps simply don't have mac equivalents. Fun times. It's funny because S.Korea is otherwise quite advanced. It's just their banking/online shopping is a huge hassle compared to using foreign cards. In order to use my Korean card online, I had to go to the bank, set a password there (valid for 1 year) and have a randomly generated numbers-lookup card printed. I forget the exact term for it. So when I used my bank's debit card online, I guess it would go "type in the number next to 20 on your numbers card". Totally ridiculous. I just never used it because I realized sites like gmarket allowed foreigners to use their cards anyways.
- Chaekyung 7y ago
  It is not about negotiating a better price for Windows. A lot of government organizations switched last year or, in the case of the South Korean army, long ago. https://linuxreviews.org/30%2B_South_Korean_Governmental_Organizations,_Local_Governments_And_Schools_Have_Switched_To_Linux https://linuxreviews.org/30%2B_South_Korean_Governmental_Org...
RoutinePlayer 7y ago
Did Germany try this unsuccessfully a few years back?
- newnewpdro 7y ago
  Munich successfully pivoted to Linux for over a decade, then Microsoft Germany moved their HQ to Munich no doubt greasing many wheels in the process and Munich switched back to Windows a year later IIRC.
  - Fronzie 7y ago
    Currently Cern is having a go at replacing all microsoft products, due to high cost. https://home.cern/news/news/computing/migrating-open-source-technologies https://home.cern/news/news/computing/migrating-open-source-... The institute is big enough that it might be a source of inspiration or knowledge for local governments in Europe.
    - tasogare 7y ago
      The average CERN user is way more tech savvy than random government workers.
      - brnt 7y ago
        The average CERN user already does not use Windows or any MS products. All research infra is Linux (Cern Linux, a CentOS derivative), and apart from a stray Macbook, I've never seen anyone use anything but Linux. Windows was for a few desktops, administrative staff and optionally email (some Exchange or OWA stuff or sth).
        pjmlp 7y ago
        So the whole Windows infrastructure from 2000 - 2005, including the use of Office to write documents in some is gone? And everyone at HLT has ditched their Apple laptops? I thought Scientific Linux was no longer a thing (I was a beta user back in the initial release).
yingw787 7y ago
As someone who very much uses and likes FOSS, I'm not sure I'd actually recommend people use Linux in end-user, day to day work. I can definitely see BSD or Linux in core infrastructure, but end users don't really care too much about which OS to use, they care about driver compatibility, UX usability, and app availability, among other things like security and what-not. Windows has apps, it has vendor-built drivers, it has auto-update and nice GUIs and all that. Linux doesn't. I use Ubuntu 19.10 eoan for my daily driver replacing Windows 10 Professional for Workstations, and I can tell you that the drivers are _definitely_ worse, updates are manual, apps are updated last of the major OSes, and if I wasn't a SWE but I needed to use a computer for my job it wouldn't be as pleasant as Windows.
- pedrocr 7y ago
  A lot of your specific claims are dubious at best but more importantly this isn't someone installing Linux on their own random laptop. Doing Linux deployments across a set of machines whose hardware and installed applications you control is a completely different situation.
- Ronll 7y ago
  Agreed, I'm also an SWE, pro FOSS and all but the Linux Desktop is just not there. also these days my first suggestion for most users would be chromeOS or similar.
- zzzcpan 7y ago
  To your updates point: as I understand Microsoft's strategy they are doing rolling release now, which is how a desktop OS should do in the age when hardware is expected to still be fast enough for everything in 15 years. Ubuntu doesn't do it, their LTS is just 5 years, neither does MacOS by the way. This is of course very annoying to deal with and disrupts and breaks user experience pretty significantly. But also is not a problem for government making their own distro, updates is like half of the reason to even make a distro.
  - HeWhoLurksLate 7y ago
    You could use Manjaro instead- it has rolling releases, is based on Arch, and looks and feels nice to use.
totorovirus 7y ago
South korean developer here. I am quite aware of government plans for software since I've done my service as a software developer for army. There is a company called TmaxSoft which advertises itfself as only builders to the 'Korean OS'. Fueled by relatively high patriotism shared by average koreans, the government had been subsidizing this firm for more than 10 years. Despite the effort to liberate the nation from a private US firm this wasn't successful so far: first they tried to build their own kernel which froze at the public demo. After realizing it was dumb to write kernel from scratch, they began focusing on tuning the visual interface. The result was criticism that is was just a pathetic clone of MintOS(linux distro). Due to bureaucratic debt over 10+ years, I think those government officials are desparately trying to meet an end to this mad project. The money and time they've spent well deserves a spot in governmental future plan in converting all american OS: Windows into Homemade korean government friendly OS.
- yingw787 7y ago
  Ah, live demos are hard :P There's no shame in trying, and no shame in pivoting after a cost/benefit analysis, and sticking with Windows. In contrast, North Korea maintains its own Linux distro (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Star_OS#Version_4.0 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Star_OS#Version_4.0) and has for ten to twenty years, probably because they can't trust any proprietary software and they're not tied to Windows-happy U.S. DoD, and I would rather live in South Korea and use Windows than live in North Korea and use Linux.
  - pcr910303 7y ago
    Not OP, but: > There's no shame in trying, and no shame in pivoting after a cost/benefit analysis, and sticking with Windows. It wouldn’t been a shame if TmaxOS was advertised as a BSD distribution with Windows integration through Wine from the start — it advertises itself as a ‘pure korean OS’ without any mentions of BSD (which I’m pretty sure is a license violation) our Wine. It later moved onto the Linux kernel and a more standard Linux environment (with some BSD components left over), and a custom DE, and is currently advertising itself as a Linux distribution. I’ve heard it is actually in a fairly useable state... but the OS already got a really bad rap.
OldGuyInTheClub 7y ago
Interesting development. I wonder if Excel/VBA are a big part of their work. If so, there could be large costs in converting, testing, and deploying the alternatives.
pcr910303 7y ago
South Korean here, explanation for some context: South Korea has a deep legacy of MS-DOS/Windows, and it’s reliance of Microsoft’s OS is very high. This mostly is due to two reasons: the high use of the unique word processor(Hangul Word Processor) and the legacy ActiveX plugins used for cryptography when banking. In the 90s, multiple internet service providers used ActiveX technology (for people who doesn’t know, it’s basically binary plugin technology to provide unlimited access to the local environment) to provide services. They were used to provide VOD services, etc... and when online shopping & banking started in the mid 90s the government mandated use of a 128bit crypto algorithm. At that time, the dominant browser IE only had 40 bit crypto due to US’s export restrictions — so the 128 bit algorithm they decided to use was a independently developed algorithm called SEED, which was then implemented in ActiveX by the banks and shopping malls. This became a legacy, and for a long time even after the restriction was removed, people were forced to use ActiveX plugins until the smartphones came and the banks were forced to rewrite the system. There are still a lot of banks mandating the use of Windows for desktops — that’s one reason why the Windows was so popular. Windows 10 AFAIK (I’ve never used it, so I’m not really sure) is much more strict to the binary plugins, and Internet Explorer is almost going to die — so a lot of people were staying on Windows 7, including most of the government. By the deprecation of Windows 7, the government thought that this was a good time to remove much of the legacy that enforces Windows, and is considering Linux for one of its options. One of the reasons why I have some hope on this project is because the government’s use of Windows is basically for two things — the ActiveX plugins in the web (which are mostly disappeared thanks to smartphones) and the Hangul Word Processor, which was exclusively only on Windows until about 2008, when a Linux version was released for a short period of time (and was removed due to the lack of interest). If the government decides to transition to Linux, Hancom(HWP’s developer) can prioritize the Linux port — which, in 2008 was already fully featured and has almost zero compatibility problems! (People using Linux still use the 2008 version by dockerizing the whole environment.) Some context on the operating systems that were mentioned: The Harmonica OS is a Linux Mint-based distribution that is localized thoroughly and has a lot of baseline programs (like the input methods) installed, and is pretty great for daily use. The Tmax OS is... basically a scam OS that... well uses a big mix of Linux, BSD, and Wine’s code, a homemade custom DE that is a poor ripoff of the windows interface and tries to integrate them (unsuccessfully)... and advertise as a ‘pure Korean OS’ to the officials.
foxx-boxx 7y ago
Cheers. Linux share just went up.
morpheuskafka 7y ago
Their friends to the North have been using Linux for many years know, although pirated copies of Windows are still prevalent as well. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Star_OS https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Star_OS
- mistrial9 7y ago
  Their relatives to the North... (fixed it for you!)
runxel 7y ago
Wait, the country which stills uses Internet Explorer 6 for online banking?
- pcr910303 7y ago
  As a South Korean, I can definitely assure you that’s not the case. We definitely didn’t mandate the use of IE ‘6’... and while it’s true that until early to mid 2010s banking did mandate use of IE, it stopped as soon as the smartphones became mainstream. Almost all banks and shopping malls work on Chrome and mobiles as well.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
foxx-boxx 7y ago
The funny thing is that they really can’t afford anything else. Just like half of Asia. They are using mostly stolen Windows instead. Stupid.
AYBABTME 7y ago
As a foreigner who's spending a lot of time in South Korea and had to deal/saw people deal with the inability to do anything online without the use of a Windows client, I applaud this. Every time we need to interact with the government or a bank, we need to search around for a Windows laptop or try from a VM (doesn't always work). This makes it very hard for anyone to learn a non-Windows OS. Next step: remove the silly Korean phone number requirement from your online services.
- Simon_says 7y ago
  > Next step: remove the silly Korean phone number requirement from your online services. Never going to happen as long as the Korean nanny state needs to keep tabs on its citizens.
- Hydraulix989 7y ago
  I had no issues with running Windows 7 in a VM for everything.
  - ThatGeoGuy 7y ago
    The point seems to be about finding a computer at all. Suppose you want to do some banking and all you have is your Android phone? According to what I'm reading from other comments, you may just need to find a Windows PC rather than handle things with your own device.
    - Hydraulix989 7y ago
      Nearly all of the banks in Korea have Android apps.
tus88 7y ago
Lucky they aren't the world's biggest abuser of activeX...oh wait.
rocky1138 7y ago
Inaccurate headline. They're doing a pilot project to see if they like it. This is where a lot of these "X Government Switches To Linux!" projects fall apart. Wake me up when they actually do it.
- fortran77 7y ago
  That's what I thought. Flagged.
- danso 7y ago
  Relevant well-known case: when Munich switched to Linux and then switched back to Windows 10 https://www.engadget.com/2017/11/26/linux-pioneer-munich-switches-to-windows/ https://www.engadget.com/2017/11/26/linux-pioneer-munich-swi...
  - AnthonyMouse 7y ago
    Which is, of course, the canonical example of why all governments should do it. The project didn't fail, it was on pace to succeed, which made Microsoft swoop in and basically bribe them to switch back. The lesson being, switch to Linux. Either you'll switch and save money, or Microsoft will bribe you not to and you'll save money.
    - dmix 7y ago
      The linked headline from the OPs post about the switch: > Linux in Munich: 'No compelling technical reason to return to Windows,' says city's IT chief https://www.techrepublic.com/article/linux-in-munich-no-compelling-technical-reason-to-return-to-windows-says-citys-it-chief/ https://www.techrepublic.com/article/linux-in-munich-no-comp... The reason was probably a shift in IT management who wanted to keep things "simple" with some vague thing about keeping one platform since they had kept previous windows machines around which were apparently "absolutely needed". It takes heart in the management to keep Linux around, which isn't always a reliable thing. Even when there was no "technical" need to use the more expensive Windows option. But this sounds 100% like a Microsoft sales/marketing job, which they are amazing at. They've really perfected selling to big firms, which you could see with the growth of Azure. Which I witnessed when they unleashed their sales machine on startups to get them to use it, and it was quite interesting to see in action.
OrgNet 7y ago
Windows 10 was the last nail in the coffin for Windows....
- HeWhoLurksLate 7y ago
  Windows 10 seems to run faster on older computers than even 7 did. Not saying it's my favorite thing, but rolling updates and decent built-in anti-malware make it a fairly good option these days, and with WSL (Windows Subsystem for Linux) and Multipass, there's a lot of Linux stuff that can be done on Windows. IMO, Windows 10, the separated kernel stuff they're doing, and their current support for Open Source software is the best thing Microsoft has done in a long time. Hopefully they don't get to Extinguish this time.
  - chiefalchemist 7y ago
    I've a long time Windows user. Lately, I've been considering a switch to MBP but the cost is ridiculous. I'm now thinking my best choice is to upgrade my hardware and do a deep dive in Windows Subsystem of Linux. That would give me the best of both world, yes?
  - technofiend 7y ago
    >Not saying it's my favorite thing, but rolling updates and decent built-in anti-malware make it a fairly good option these days, and with WSL (Windows Subsystem for Linux) and Multipass, there's a lot of Linux stuff that can be done on Windows. Those are great features and welcome to keep Windows 10 machines from turning into yet another botnet. But for some people the concern isn't about updates, it's about privacy. And frankly unless you otherwise need to use your Windows PC, there's no compelling reason to use it over a Linux machine. >IMO, Windows 10, the separated kernel stuff they're doing, and their current support for Open Source software is the best thing Microsoft has done in a long time. Yes they're doing a great job of improving Windows and converging Windows into a useful platform for Linux developers. However Microsoft being Microsoft there's always the fear this is another Embrace, Extend, Extinguish initiative. And here's the irony - as it becomes easier to do Linuxy things in Windows, it also becomes apparent that except for Windows-only tasks, there's no compelling reason to prefer Windows over Linux. Particularly in light of their mandatory user data collection. At some point perhaps Microsoft will relent and make their Semi-annual Channel and Long Term Service Channel licenses more generally available. But for now their data collection is turning some privacy-minded people away from Windows. If I could pay a reasonable price and reclaim my privacy I suppose I would, despite the fact this is Microsoft taking something from me and then charging me to get it back. But the cost of entry for a legitimate license to a less invasive version of Windows is just too high; hundreds for a mini purchase of servers + some CALs, or several hundred for a Visual Studio (formerly MSDN) Subscription. I've met Microsoft in the middle and purchased a license but run it in a VM. The VM is on just long enough to patch itself and do the Windows-only things I need to do such as run Tax Cut to fill out this year's tax return. Sure I could ditch Windows and do my taxes online but that's just feeding my data into another marketing machine. I can't and don't claim to represent the majority view, but I doubt I'm alone in having marketing / data collection fatigue. And frankly I do resent Microsoft's deciding data collection is the new minimum price of entry to use their software. In short: you're right they're doing some great things, but (for some of us) it's not about that. My apologies if that comes off a bit ranty. I suppose it's a hot button issue for me.
remir 7y ago
I said this 10 years ago: if government from many developed nations pool their resources together, we could have a serious alternative to Windows and Windows Server. Most of the base elements are already there.
- hrjd 7y ago
  We already have a better alternative to Windows Server. It's Linux.
  - chiefalchemist 7y ago
    Perhaps. But far from practical for mass consumption.
  - walshemj 7y ago
    For server that's a good argument - for end users client systems not so much
  - chrysoprace 7y ago
    There are many reasons corporations choose Windows Desktop and Windows Server, many of which are not limited to backwards compatibility with existing infrastructure. It would take a large amount of money and resources to change over that infrastructure, and while it is doable, an intermediary has t he potential to save governments and corporations a lot of money and time. Something like a server version of ReactOS[1] would allow existing infrastructure to continue to work as governments and corporations phase out their reliance on a foreign company's product. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ReactOS https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ReactOS
  - oldgun 7y ago
    As much as I want to believe it, Linux is still quite lagging in the personal computing area, where hardware support, graphics support, creativity application support, and enterprise support are still far behind Windows/Mac. Linux still has a long way to go.
    - 7y ago
The_rationalist 7y ago
If I recall correctly, in the early 2000s, Japan wanted to migrate by default to Linux. That never happened for an unknown to me reason.
ThinkBeat 7y ago
It will be interesting to see how it will work. If they have been Windows for so long and all the way up to Windows 7, they must have a lot of software and more interestingly hardware that Win7 manages to get working. All sorts of bits and bobs hardware will potentially make trouble. I also see in the article: "The South Korean government also plans to implement a Desktop as a Service (DaaS) that uses a virtual PC environment that runs on a cloud by the second half of 2020. The South Korean ministry expects a 72% savings in cost with the DaaS move. Security standards and DaaS models are currently in development, and pilot tests are scheduled to start in October of this year." This does make a lot of sense in a two-stage program, switch out the desktop to become thin-clients that connects to the DaaS. Then they can allow end user to connect to a Daas of Windows7, Windows10, Linux, DOS, I mean whatever.
- zhaoweny 7y ago
  But when I was working daily via a DaaS platform, it's not a great experience for software development. Input latency is high enough to be noticed, the virtual desktop can not put under load (e.g. using a IDE for C++ other than Source Insight). My company had to switch back to desktop PC for most developers.
  - jimmydorry 7y ago
    Yep, my experience exactly too.
dntbnmpls 7y ago
I commend their effort, but I believe it should be done on an entire ecosystem level. From assembly to libraries to documents to frameworks. All of it should be turned into Korean, French, Mandarin, Russian, etc. If the governments of major nations decided to do it in a systematic manner along with corporate and university help, it shouldn't be that difficult a task. Create it once and then your entire citizenry can use it. It's rather surprising that there isn't much effort to port "computing" to people's native language. Why should the french or arabs have to learn english to code? Imagine having to learn russian to study physics or learn korean to watch Parasite. By making english the default language of computing, every non-anglo nation disadvantages their own citizens by placing an unnecessary hurdle in front of them. How many people around the world are simply discouraged from programming because of added burden of having to learn english? How much are we losing out because of that? This might be difficult for smaller and poorer nations, but what is the excuse for germany, france, spain, japan, brazil, etc with large enough populations to justify porting "computing" for their people?
- Qu3tzal 7y ago
  Well, why do banks don't port all their code to recent and efficient languages? Pretty much the same here. All the code currently in use is written in English and it will take decades to completely transit from English to French computing (let's take the example of France, since I'm French). Add to that that all classes resources are for English programming languages and that to share knowledge between French, German and Russian programmers English is the only way to go. But don't be fooled, in most companies all the comments and documentation are written in French. Variables are in English because it's the only language that only use the ASCII charset. Only recent languages have the support for Unicode identifiers names. English reading comprehension (at the very least) is a mandatory skill to have in our modern world.
  - dntbnmpls 7y ago
    > Pretty much the same here. It isn't. I'm talking about systematic change, not updating existing code. Like how latin was used to teach everything until nations decided to port religion, science, math, literature, etc to their native languages. Look at how much that changed the world. Rather than a select lucky few having access to knowledge tied to a language, it was ported and made available to all the peoples of a nation. > Add to that that all classes resources are for English programming languages and that to share knowledge between French, German and Russian programmers English is the only way to go. The only way to share knowledge is through english? So the french can't translate german and russians can't translate german? What about all the french, german and russians who don't know english? Are they supposed to languish in ignorance? > Variables are in English because it's the only language that only use the ASCII charset. Variables, keywords, the standard libraries, runtime, kernel, assembly, etc. > Only recent languages have the support for Unicode identifiers names. You make it sound like you can't change it. Like older languages are set in stone. > English reading comprehension (at the very least) is a mandatory skill to have in our modern world. This is simply not true as most of the modern world does not have basic english reading comprehension skills. And as I said, this type of thinking is holding back much of the world. And needing to have basic english reading comprehension doesn't mean that computation shouldn't be ported to one's native language. The selfish few used to keep the masses ignorant through language exclusivity ( latin ). Seems like the same thing is happening here. Maybe it's not selfishness, but laziness or learned helplessness. I know if I had to learn french in order to code, I wouldn't be a programming. And I'm sure it's the truth for the vast majority of american programmers. I think most people are similar throughout the world and having to learn a foreign language to program is an insurmountable obstacle for many.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
esjeon 7y ago
It seems like the government is pushing VDI to replace dedicated internet PCs, which are used alongside air-gapped government network PCs. That means, main office PCs will still be running Windows. Actually, Korean military had an experimental VDI program years ago, but the program failed mainly because of the price, most of which had to be spent on Windows license. IIRC, after creating a small prototype, the program is eventually scrapped. So, no, this is not a negotiating move. Also, I believe this will definitely happen, because Windows 10 is stupidly expensive. The official announcement from Korean government (Korean): https://www.mois.go.kr/frt/bbs/type010/commonSelectBoardArticle.do?bbsId=BBSMSTR_000000000008&nttId=75607 https://www.mois.go.kr/frt/bbs/type010/commonSelectBoardArti...
honestoHeminway 7y ago
I wonder if the open source world could saddle on - what is obviously just a price lowering attempt. Grow something like the mozilla foundation, just from the attempts to reign license costs in- which then implements a directx compatible gfx api layer and a comon driver pool - that really always works.
throwaway1777 7y ago
No one mentioned video games? An extremely high percentage of South Koreans play video games and they have many of the top competitive players and esports leagues. I find it hard to believe these will transition to Linux any time soon.
- dgellow 7y ago
  The article is about South Korea government PCs.
- modo_mario 7y ago
  What do those have to do with what the article talks about?

The office suite part is the most painful. I am now using Softmaker Freeoffice (free version of Softmaker Office). It is an excellent alternative to Libreoffice, except that it is not opensource.

Hydraulix989 7y ago
Most Koreans use a custom word processor called Hancom Office.

dmurray 7y ago

Is this actually likely to happen, or a negotiating manoeuvre with Microsoft?

microcolonel 7y ago
Last time they trusted Microsoft, they got their entire country stuck with ActiveX; that said, possibly a bit of column A, a bit of column B.
- hsivonen 7y ago
  That was more South Korea’s own bad crypto policy’s fault than Microsoft’s fault, though.
  - pcr910303 7y ago
    > That was more South Korea’s own bad crypto policy’s fault South Korean here, I wouldn’t say it was the government’s fault to enforce better security/crypto tech on the web when banking, right? To be strict, everything really started because of the US’s IMO useless export restrictions. Then it became a legacy that couldn’t be third of for ~20 yrs. I don’t think the policy was great, but it was reasonable at the time.
    - pitaj 7y ago
      I think the point is that it wasn't better security. And nowadays it likely has no improvement or actually decreases security.
  - microcolonel 7y ago
    It was because the U.S. government placed export restrictions on Rijndael. I mean, the alternative might have been for them to just use Rijndael anyway, and that would probably have been better in the long run, but heh. Now that that stuff is out of the way, I honestly can't see why they don't (or didn't until recently?) allow Rijndael or ChaCha20.
    - modo_mario 7y ago
      Wait what? How could they even put export restrictions on it?
- scarejunba 7y ago
  Actually, what's the net rate of money lost and people who've lost money as a result of that?
- yongjik 7y ago
  It's not exactly SK trusted Microsoft. Rather, some idiots had this brilliant idea that if you create a piece of code that hooks directly into Windows kernel and messes around with device drivers, your users will be secure, because how would those evil hackers run keyloggers when your security plugin already hijacked keyboard events. So far so good, but then how do you disseminate this wonderful piece of security technology? By creating an ActiveX plugin and make every user download and install it before they can use your website. And since those pesky new versions of Windows will keep warning "This program may harm your computer, continue?", we just have to tell users to click "OK". But what if users are trained to always click OK and accidentally stumbles upon a fishing website? Stupid dummy users, they shouldn't have done that! If they accidentally went to a fishing website, downloaded a bad security plugin, and uploaded all their banking credentials, it's their fault! IIRC Microsoft practically begged South Korea to please stop using ActiveX, it was never a great technology and it outlived its usefulness a long time ago, could we please move on? Edit: As far as I remember, real fun started when you needed to access two banking websites. Now their security plugins start to fight each other!
  - jimmydorry 7y ago
    Well... going back further, SK was forced to do something when the US banned all crypto export above 48bit or something stupid. SK wanted 128bit and the only way they could do that was via ActiveX. A few weeks later and every bank and eStore was using the Korean rolled crypto instead of the weaksauce crypto that the browser / OS was rolled out with. You can trace all of this directly back to the combination of Microsoft and the US Government. Microsoft should have pushed back on the government's stupid demand or educated them on why it was stupid, and the government shouldn't have made that demand in the first place.
- andrewzah 7y ago
  Further reading about activex mentioned above: * https://www.zdnet.com/article/south-koreans-use-internet-explorer-its-the-law/ https://www.zdnet.com/article/south-koreans-use-internet-exp... * https://www.forbes.com/sites/elaineramirez/2016/11/30/south-koreas-online-banking-system-is-stuck-in-1996/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/elaineramirez/2016/11/30/south-... Oh, and some required apps simply don't have mac equivalents. Fun times. It's funny because S.Korea is otherwise quite advanced. It's just their banking/online shopping is a huge hassle compared to using foreign cards. In order to use my Korean card online, I had to go to the bank, set a password there (valid for 1 year) and have a randomly generated numbers-lookup card printed. I forget the exact term for it. So when I used my bank's debit card online, I guess it would go "type in the number next to 20 on your numbers card". Totally ridiculous. I just never used it because I realized sites like gmarket allowed foreigners to use their cards anyways.
Chaekyung 7y ago
It is not about negotiating a better price for Windows. A lot of government organizations switched last year or, in the case of the South Korean army, long ago. https://linuxreviews.org/30%2B_South_Korean_Governmental_Organizations,_Local_Governments_And_Schools_Have_Switched_To_Linux https://linuxreviews.org/30%2B_South_Korean_Governmental_Org...

RoutinePlayer 7y ago

Did Germany try this unsuccessfully a few years back?

newnewpdro 7y ago
Munich successfully pivoted to Linux for over a decade, then Microsoft Germany moved their HQ to Munich no doubt greasing many wheels in the process and Munich switched back to Windows a year later IIRC.
- Fronzie 7y ago
  Currently Cern is having a go at replacing all microsoft products, due to high cost. https://home.cern/news/news/computing/migrating-open-source-technologies https://home.cern/news/news/computing/migrating-open-source-... The institute is big enough that it might be a source of inspiration or knowledge for local governments in Europe.
  - tasogare 7y ago
    The average CERN user is way more tech savvy than random government workers.
    - brnt 7y ago
      The average CERN user already does not use Windows or any MS products. All research infra is Linux (Cern Linux, a CentOS derivative), and apart from a stray Macbook, I've never seen anyone use anything but Linux. Windows was for a few desktops, administrative staff and optionally email (some Exchange or OWA stuff or sth).
      - pjmlp 7y ago
        So the whole Windows infrastructure from 2000 - 2005, including the use of Office to write documents in some is gone? And everyone at HLT has ditched their Apple laptops? I thought Scientific Linux was no longer a thing (I was a beta user back in the initial release).

yingw787 7y ago

As someone who very much uses and likes FOSS, I'm not sure I'd actually recommend people use Linux in end-user, day to day work. I can definitely see BSD or Linux in core infrastructure, but end users don't really care too much about which OS to use, they care about driver compatibility, UX usability, and app availability, among other things like security and what-not. Windows has apps, it has vendor-built drivers, it has auto-update and nice GUIs and all that. Linux doesn't. I use Ubuntu 19.10 eoan for my daily driver replacing Windows 10 Professional for Workstations, and I can tell you that the drivers are _definitely_ worse, updates are manual, apps are updated last of the major OSes, and if I wasn't a SWE but I needed to use a computer for my job it wouldn't be as pleasant as Windows.

pedrocr 7y ago
A lot of your specific claims are dubious at best but more importantly this isn't someone installing Linux on their own random laptop. Doing Linux deployments across a set of machines whose hardware and installed applications you control is a completely different situation.
Ronll 7y ago
Agreed, I'm also an SWE, pro FOSS and all but the Linux Desktop is just not there. also these days my first suggestion for most users would be chromeOS or similar.
zzzcpan 7y ago
To your updates point: as I understand Microsoft's strategy they are doing rolling release now, which is how a desktop OS should do in the age when hardware is expected to still be fast enough for everything in 15 years. Ubuntu doesn't do it, their LTS is just 5 years, neither does MacOS by the way. This is of course very annoying to deal with and disrupts and breaks user experience pretty significantly. But also is not a problem for government making their own distro, updates is like half of the reason to even make a distro.
- HeWhoLurksLate 7y ago
  You could use Manjaro instead- it has rolling releases, is based on Arch, and looks and feels nice to use.

totorovirus 7y ago

South korean developer here. I am quite aware of government plans for software since I've done my service as a software developer for army. There is a company called TmaxSoft which advertises itfself as only builders to the 'Korean OS'. Fueled by relatively high patriotism shared by average koreans, the government had been subsidizing this firm for more than 10 years. Despite the effort to liberate the nation from a private US firm this wasn't successful so far: first they tried to build their own kernel which froze at the public demo. After realizing it was dumb to write kernel from scratch, they began focusing on tuning the visual interface. The result was criticism that is was just a pathetic clone of MintOS(linux distro). Due to bureaucratic debt over 10+ years, I think those government officials are desparately trying to meet an end to this mad project. The money and time they've spent well deserves a spot in governmental future plan in converting all american OS: Windows into Homemade korean government friendly OS.

yingw787 7y ago
Ah, live demos are hard :P There's no shame in trying, and no shame in pivoting after a cost/benefit analysis, and sticking with Windows. In contrast, North Korea maintains its own Linux distro (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Star_OS#Version_4.0 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Star_OS#Version_4.0) and has for ten to twenty years, probably because they can't trust any proprietary software and they're not tied to Windows-happy U.S. DoD, and I would rather live in South Korea and use Windows than live in North Korea and use Linux.
- pcr910303 7y ago
  Not OP, but: > There's no shame in trying, and no shame in pivoting after a cost/benefit analysis, and sticking with Windows. It wouldn’t been a shame if TmaxOS was advertised as a BSD distribution with Windows integration through Wine from the start — it advertises itself as a ‘pure korean OS’ without any mentions of BSD (which I’m pretty sure is a license violation) our Wine. It later moved onto the Linux kernel and a more standard Linux environment (with some BSD components left over), and a custom DE, and is currently advertising itself as a Linux distribution. I’ve heard it is actually in a fairly useable state... but the OS already got a really bad rap.

OldGuyInTheClub 7y ago

Interesting development. I wonder if Excel/VBA are a big part of their work. If so, there could be large costs in converting, testing, and deploying the alternatives.

pcr910303 7y ago

South Korean here, explanation for some context: South Korea has a deep legacy of MS-DOS/Windows, and it’s reliance of Microsoft’s OS is very high. This mostly is due to two reasons: the high use of the unique word processor(Hangul Word Processor) and the legacy ActiveX plugins used for cryptography when banking. In the 90s, multiple internet service providers used ActiveX technology (for people who doesn’t know, it’s basically binary plugin technology to provide unlimited access to the local environment) to provide services. They were used to provide VOD services, etc... and when online shopping & banking started in the mid 90s the government mandated use of a 128bit crypto algorithm. At that time, the dominant browser IE only had 40 bit crypto due to US’s export restrictions — so the 128 bit algorithm they decided to use was a independently developed algorithm called SEED, which was then implemented in ActiveX by the banks and shopping malls. This became a legacy, and for a long time even after the restriction was removed, people were forced to use ActiveX plugins until the smartphones came and the banks were forced to rewrite the system. There are still a lot of banks mandating the use of Windows for desktops — that’s one reason why the Windows was so popular. Windows 10 AFAIK (I’ve never used it, so I’m not really sure) is much more strict to the binary plugins, and Internet Explorer is almost going to die — so a lot of people were staying on Windows 7, including most of the government. By the deprecation of Windows 7, the government thought that this was a good time to remove much of the legacy that enforces Windows, and is considering Linux for one of its options. One of the reasons why I have some hope on this project is because the government’s use of Windows is basically for two things — the ActiveX plugins in the web (which are mostly disappeared thanks to smartphones) and the Hangul Word Processor, which was exclusively only on Windows until about 2008, when a Linux version was released for a short period of time (and was removed due to the lack of interest). If the government decides to transition to Linux, Hancom(HWP’s developer) can prioritize the Linux port — which, in 2008 was already fully featured and has almost zero compatibility problems! (People using Linux still use the 2008 version by dockerizing the whole environment.) Some context on the operating systems that were mentioned: The Harmonica OS is a Linux Mint-based distribution that is localized thoroughly and has a lot of baseline programs (like the input methods) installed, and is pretty great for daily use. The Tmax OS is... basically a scam OS that... well uses a big mix of Linux, BSD, and Wine’s code, a homemade custom DE that is a poor ripoff of the windows interface and tries to integrate them (unsuccessfully)... and advertise as a ‘pure Korean OS’ to the officials.

foxx-boxx 7y ago

Cheers. Linux share just went up.

morpheuskafka 7y ago

Their friends to the North have been using Linux for many years know, although pirated copies of Windows are still prevalent as well. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Star_OS https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Star_OS

mistrial9 7y ago
Their relatives to the North... (fixed it for you!)

runxel 7y ago

Wait, the country which stills uses Internet Explorer 6 for online banking?

pcr910303 7y ago
As a South Korean, I can definitely assure you that’s not the case. We definitely didn’t mandate the use of IE ‘6’... and while it’s true that until early to mid 2010s banking did mandate use of IE, it stopped as soon as the smartphones became mainstream. Almost all banks and shopping malls work on Chrome and mobiles as well.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

foxx-boxx 7y ago

The funny thing is that they really can’t afford anything else. Just like half of Asia. They are using mostly stolen Windows instead. Stupid.

AYBABTME 7y ago

As a foreigner who's spending a lot of time in South Korea and had to deal/saw people deal with the inability to do anything online without the use of a Windows client, I applaud this. Every time we need to interact with the government or a bank, we need to search around for a Windows laptop or try from a VM (doesn't always work). This makes it very hard for anyone to learn a non-Windows OS. Next step: remove the silly Korean phone number requirement from your online services.

Simon_says 7y ago
> Next step: remove the silly Korean phone number requirement from your online services. Never going to happen as long as the Korean nanny state needs to keep tabs on its citizens.
Hydraulix989 7y ago
I had no issues with running Windows 7 in a VM for everything.
- ThatGeoGuy 7y ago
  The point seems to be about finding a computer at all. Suppose you want to do some banking and all you have is your Android phone? According to what I'm reading from other comments, you may just need to find a Windows PC rather than handle things with your own device.
  - Hydraulix989 7y ago
    Nearly all of the banks in Korea have Android apps.

tus88 7y ago

Lucky they aren't the world's biggest abuser of activeX...oh wait.

rocky1138 7y ago

Inaccurate headline. They're doing a pilot project to see if they like it. This is where a lot of these "X Government Switches To Linux!" projects fall apart. Wake me up when they actually do it.

fortran77 7y ago
That's what I thought. Flagged.
danso 7y ago
Relevant well-known case: when Munich switched to Linux and then switched back to Windows 10 https://www.engadget.com/2017/11/26/linux-pioneer-munich-switches-to-windows/ https://www.engadget.com/2017/11/26/linux-pioneer-munich-swi...
- AnthonyMouse 7y ago
  Which is, of course, the canonical example of why all governments should do it. The project didn't fail, it was on pace to succeed, which made Microsoft swoop in and basically bribe them to switch back. The lesson being, switch to Linux. Either you'll switch and save money, or Microsoft will bribe you not to and you'll save money.
  - dmix 7y ago
    The linked headline from the OPs post about the switch: > Linux in Munich: 'No compelling technical reason to return to Windows,' says city's IT chief https://www.techrepublic.com/article/linux-in-munich-no-compelling-technical-reason-to-return-to-windows-says-citys-it-chief/ https://www.techrepublic.com/article/linux-in-munich-no-comp... The reason was probably a shift in IT management who wanted to keep things "simple" with some vague thing about keeping one platform since they had kept previous windows machines around which were apparently "absolutely needed". It takes heart in the management to keep Linux around, which isn't always a reliable thing. Even when there was no "technical" need to use the more expensive Windows option. But this sounds 100% like a Microsoft sales/marketing job, which they are amazing at. They've really perfected selling to big firms, which you could see with the growth of Azure. Which I witnessed when they unleashed their sales machine on startups to get them to use it, and it was quite interesting to see in action.

OrgNet 7y ago

Windows 10 was the last nail in the coffin for Windows....

HeWhoLurksLate 7y ago
Windows 10 seems to run faster on older computers than even 7 did. Not saying it's my favorite thing, but rolling updates and decent built-in anti-malware make it a fairly good option these days, and with WSL (Windows Subsystem for Linux) and Multipass, there's a lot of Linux stuff that can be done on Windows. IMO, Windows 10, the separated kernel stuff they're doing, and their current support for Open Source software is the best thing Microsoft has done in a long time. Hopefully they don't get to Extinguish this time.
- chiefalchemist 7y ago
  I've a long time Windows user. Lately, I've been considering a switch to MBP but the cost is ridiculous. I'm now thinking my best choice is to upgrade my hardware and do a deep dive in Windows Subsystem of Linux. That would give me the best of both world, yes?
- technofiend 7y ago
  >Not saying it's my favorite thing, but rolling updates and decent built-in anti-malware make it a fairly good option these days, and with WSL (Windows Subsystem for Linux) and Multipass, there's a lot of Linux stuff that can be done on Windows. Those are great features and welcome to keep Windows 10 machines from turning into yet another botnet. But for some people the concern isn't about updates, it's about privacy. And frankly unless you otherwise need to use your Windows PC, there's no compelling reason to use it over a Linux machine. >IMO, Windows 10, the separated kernel stuff they're doing, and their current support for Open Source software is the best thing Microsoft has done in a long time. Yes they're doing a great job of improving Windows and converging Windows into a useful platform for Linux developers. However Microsoft being Microsoft there's always the fear this is another Embrace, Extend, Extinguish initiative. And here's the irony - as it becomes easier to do Linuxy things in Windows, it also becomes apparent that except for Windows-only tasks, there's no compelling reason to prefer Windows over Linux. Particularly in light of their mandatory user data collection. At some point perhaps Microsoft will relent and make their Semi-annual Channel and Long Term Service Channel licenses more generally available. But for now their data collection is turning some privacy-minded people away from Windows. If I could pay a reasonable price and reclaim my privacy I suppose I would, despite the fact this is Microsoft taking something from me and then charging me to get it back. But the cost of entry for a legitimate license to a less invasive version of Windows is just too high; hundreds for a mini purchase of servers + some CALs, or several hundred for a Visual Studio (formerly MSDN) Subscription. I've met Microsoft in the middle and purchased a license but run it in a VM. The VM is on just long enough to patch itself and do the Windows-only things I need to do such as run Tax Cut to fill out this year's tax return. Sure I could ditch Windows and do my taxes online but that's just feeding my data into another marketing machine. I can't and don't claim to represent the majority view, but I doubt I'm alone in having marketing / data collection fatigue. And frankly I do resent Microsoft's deciding data collection is the new minimum price of entry to use their software. In short: you're right they're doing some great things, but (for some of us) it's not about that. My apologies if that comes off a bit ranty. I suppose it's a hot button issue for me.

remir 7y ago

I said this 10 years ago: if government from many developed nations pool their resources together, we could have a serious alternative to Windows and Windows Server. Most of the base elements are already there.

hrjd 7y ago
We already have a better alternative to Windows Server. It's Linux.
- chiefalchemist 7y ago
  Perhaps. But far from practical for mass consumption.
- walshemj 7y ago
  For server that's a good argument - for end users client systems not so much
- chrysoprace 7y ago
  There are many reasons corporations choose Windows Desktop and Windows Server, many of which are not limited to backwards compatibility with existing infrastructure. It would take a large amount of money and resources to change over that infrastructure, and while it is doable, an intermediary has t he potential to save governments and corporations a lot of money and time. Something like a server version of ReactOS[1] would allow existing infrastructure to continue to work as governments and corporations phase out their reliance on a foreign company's product. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ReactOS https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ReactOS
- oldgun 7y ago
  As much as I want to believe it, Linux is still quite lagging in the personal computing area, where hardware support, graphics support, creativity application support, and enterprise support are still far behind Windows/Mac. Linux still has a long way to go.
  - 7y ago

The_rationalist 7y ago

If I recall correctly, in the early 2000s, Japan wanted to migrate by default to Linux. That never happened for an unknown to me reason.

ThinkBeat 7y ago

It will be interesting to see how it will work. If they have been Windows for so long and all the way up to Windows 7, they must have a lot of software and more interestingly hardware that Win7 manages to get working. All sorts of bits and bobs hardware will potentially make trouble. I also see in the article: "The South Korean government also plans to implement a Desktop as a Service (DaaS) that uses a virtual PC environment that runs on a cloud by the second half of 2020. The South Korean ministry expects a 72% savings in cost with the DaaS move. Security standards and DaaS models are currently in development, and pilot tests are scheduled to start in October of this year." This does make a lot of sense in a two-stage program, switch out the desktop to become thin-clients that connects to the DaaS. Then they can allow end user to connect to a Daas of Windows7, Windows10, Linux, DOS, I mean whatever.

zhaoweny 7y ago
But when I was working daily via a DaaS platform, it's not a great experience for software development. Input latency is high enough to be noticed, the virtual desktop can not put under load (e.g. using a IDE for C++ other than Source Insight). My company had to switch back to desktop PC for most developers.
- jimmydorry 7y ago
  Yep, my experience exactly too.

dntbnmpls 7y ago

I commend their effort, but I believe it should be done on an entire ecosystem level. From assembly to libraries to documents to frameworks. All of it should be turned into Korean, French, Mandarin, Russian, etc. If the governments of major nations decided to do it in a systematic manner along with corporate and university help, it shouldn't be that difficult a task. Create it once and then your entire citizenry can use it. It's rather surprising that there isn't much effort to port "computing" to people's native language. Why should the french or arabs have to learn english to code? Imagine having to learn russian to study physics or learn korean to watch Parasite. By making english the default language of computing, every non-anglo nation disadvantages their own citizens by placing an unnecessary hurdle in front of them. How many people around the world are simply discouraged from programming because of added burden of having to learn english? How much are we losing out because of that? This might be difficult for smaller and poorer nations, but what is the excuse for germany, france, spain, japan, brazil, etc with large enough populations to justify porting "computing" for their people?

Qu3tzal 7y ago
Well, why do banks don't port all their code to recent and efficient languages? Pretty much the same here. All the code currently in use is written in English and it will take decades to completely transit from English to French computing (let's take the example of France, since I'm French). Add to that that all classes resources are for English programming languages and that to share knowledge between French, German and Russian programmers English is the only way to go. But don't be fooled, in most companies all the comments and documentation are written in French. Variables are in English because it's the only language that only use the ASCII charset. Only recent languages have the support for Unicode identifiers names. English reading comprehension (at the very least) is a mandatory skill to have in our modern world.
- dntbnmpls 7y ago
  > Pretty much the same here. It isn't. I'm talking about systematic change, not updating existing code. Like how latin was used to teach everything until nations decided to port religion, science, math, literature, etc to their native languages. Look at how much that changed the world. Rather than a select lucky few having access to knowledge tied to a language, it was ported and made available to all the peoples of a nation. > Add to that that all classes resources are for English programming languages and that to share knowledge between French, German and Russian programmers English is the only way to go. The only way to share knowledge is through english? So the french can't translate german and russians can't translate german? What about all the french, german and russians who don't know english? Are they supposed to languish in ignorance? > Variables are in English because it's the only language that only use the ASCII charset. Variables, keywords, the standard libraries, runtime, kernel, assembly, etc. > Only recent languages have the support for Unicode identifiers names. You make it sound like you can't change it. Like older languages are set in stone. > English reading comprehension (at the very least) is a mandatory skill to have in our modern world. This is simply not true as most of the modern world does not have basic english reading comprehension skills. And as I said, this type of thinking is holding back much of the world. And needing to have basic english reading comprehension doesn't mean that computation shouldn't be ported to one's native language. The selfish few used to keep the masses ignorant through language exclusivity ( latin ). Seems like the same thing is happening here. Maybe it's not selfishness, but laziness or learned helplessness. I know if I had to learn french in order to code, I wouldn't be a programming. And I'm sure it's the truth for the vast majority of american programmers. I think most people are similar throughout the world and having to learn a foreign language to program is an insurmountable obstacle for many.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

esjeon 7y ago

It seems like the government is pushing VDI to replace dedicated internet PCs, which are used alongside air-gapped government network PCs. That means, main office PCs will still be running Windows. Actually, Korean military had an experimental VDI program years ago, but the program failed mainly because of the price, most of which had to be spent on Windows license. IIRC, after creating a small prototype, the program is eventually scrapped. So, no, this is not a negotiating move. Also, I believe this will definitely happen, because Windows 10 is stupidly expensive. The official announcement from Korean government (Korean): https://www.mois.go.kr/frt/bbs/type010/commonSelectBoardArticle.do?bbsId=BBSMSTR_000000000008&nttId=75607 https://www.mois.go.kr/frt/bbs/type010/commonSelectBoardArti...

honestoHeminway 7y ago

I wonder if the open source world could saddle on - what is obviously just a price lowering attempt. Grow something like the mozilla foundation, just from the attempts to reign license costs in- which then implements a directx compatible gfx api layer and a comon driver pool - that really always works.

throwaway1777 7y ago

No one mentioned video games? An extremely high percentage of South Koreans play video games and they have many of the top competitive players and esports leagues. I find it hard to believe these will transition to Linux any time soon.

dgellow 7y ago
The article is about South Korea government PCs.
modo_mario 7y ago
What do those have to do with what the article talks about?