5 ms·

There's plenty of contractors in Europe who can effectively be fired without giving a cause. They are often the most experienced and valuable people and the "f

There's plenty of contractors in Europe who can effectively be fired without giving a cause. They are often the most experienced and valuable people and the "firing at will" is not a big issue for them - they are paid for it (much more than full time employees). Similarly, tech people in the US make much more than European FTEs - you don't get protections, but you get paid so much that it's trivial to save up money to just protect yourself against any periods of unexpected unemployment.

blub 7y ago
Happy to hear that this at-will employment thing is working great for US tech workers. How is it working for the majority of the US population?
- burntoutfire 7y ago
  People in US generally enjoy higher standard of living than people in Western Europe (minus healthcare, but that's unrelated), which is a signal that the system as a whole is generally benefitial for workers. Employers hire much more eagerly knowing that, if the tides turn, the extra employees will not be a burden. To see this in practice, check out for example unemployment trends in US vs France.
  - satanspastaroll 7y ago
    > (minus healthcare, but that's unrelated I think healthcare is very related to the standard of living
    - burntoutfire 7y ago
      I meant unrelated to the topic at hand, i.e. job market and job regulations.
      - matt74827289 7y ago
        Given that healthcare is often provided by employer's in the USA, I think healthcare is very related to the topics of the jobs markets and job regulations.
  - cjrp 7y ago
    I can't tell if this is satire. > Employers hire much more eagerly knowing that, if the tides turn, the extra employees will not be a burden This doesn't sound great for employees (i.e. the majority of the country).
    - burntoutfire 7y ago
      The "hire much more eagerly part" is actually great. Sure, your job can be reduced at any time, but the alternative is to not have the job at all - the business will likely not risk job creation on an uncertain project knowing they will not be able to fire if the project goes south. In practice, just see unemployment numbers - around 3% in US and around 9% in France, with chronic low-intensity rebellion (yellow vests) happening in the country.
      - cjrp 7y ago
        Employment figures don't tell the whole story. For example, lots of people could be employed but still not earning a living wage.
  - pimmen 7y ago
    Health care, dental care up to adulthood, parental leave protected by law and education through college is definitely not unrelated to standard of living. Neither is mandatory pension contributions from your employer, as well as a guaranteed contribution from the state (we unknowingly get contributions to our retirement for every month we go to college). Sure, if you're single with no kids, in very good shape, employed as a data engineer and 30 years old , like me, you would gladly take the money instead of all the other stuff. But I like the fact that children who are born into working poor families in Sweden will have a much healthier upbringing than if they were born in the US.
  - krageon 7y ago
    > generally enjoy higher standard of living This is the country that saw the invention of the "food desert", that has an absolutely terrifyingly high incidence of opiate addiction and that routinely shuffles entire cities worth of homeless around the country so they're someone else's problem? That US?
    - burntoutfire 7y ago
      It's also the country where not being able to live in a detached house is mostly seen as not worthy of middle class. That's far above the standard of Western Europe, where people in middle class lives in flats.
      - pimmen 7y ago
        In Sweden, most middle class people live in detached houses. However, most young professionals desire to live in apartments because it's simply more convenient. I hate the garden and I hate driving. This article is about Sweden, remember. My parents have two houses, one outside Gothenburg (big enough that they have converted the floor me and my younger brother lived in into two apartments, one if four bedrooms the other one is two) and a beach house further up north. They're from a completely different generation with different priorities.
  - bakuninsbart 7y ago
    This is not backed up by statistics. Look at life satisfaction or mood-polls. GDP/capita or stuff like that does not tell you how people are actually doing. Even in rich cities like NYC or SF, I did not feel like people had a higher standard of living - unless they were part of the 1%

blub 7y ago

Happy to hear that this at-will employment thing is working great for US tech workers. How is it working for the majority of the US population?

burntoutfire 7y ago
People in US generally enjoy higher standard of living than people in Western Europe (minus healthcare, but that's unrelated), which is a signal that the system as a whole is generally benefitial for workers. Employers hire much more eagerly knowing that, if the tides turn, the extra employees will not be a burden. To see this in practice, check out for example unemployment trends in US vs France.
- satanspastaroll 7y ago
  > (minus healthcare, but that's unrelated I think healthcare is very related to the standard of living
  - burntoutfire 7y ago
    I meant unrelated to the topic at hand, i.e. job market and job regulations.
    - matt74827289 7y ago
      Given that healthcare is often provided by employer's in the USA, I think healthcare is very related to the topics of the jobs markets and job regulations.
- cjrp 7y ago
  I can't tell if this is satire. > Employers hire much more eagerly knowing that, if the tides turn, the extra employees will not be a burden This doesn't sound great for employees (i.e. the majority of the country).
  - burntoutfire 7y ago
    The "hire much more eagerly part" is actually great. Sure, your job can be reduced at any time, but the alternative is to not have the job at all - the business will likely not risk job creation on an uncertain project knowing they will not be able to fire if the project goes south. In practice, just see unemployment numbers - around 3% in US and around 9% in France, with chronic low-intensity rebellion (yellow vests) happening in the country.
    - cjrp 7y ago
      Employment figures don't tell the whole story. For example, lots of people could be employed but still not earning a living wage.
- pimmen 7y ago
  Health care, dental care up to adulthood, parental leave protected by law and education through college is definitely not unrelated to standard of living. Neither is mandatory pension contributions from your employer, as well as a guaranteed contribution from the state (we unknowingly get contributions to our retirement for every month we go to college). Sure, if you're single with no kids, in very good shape, employed as a data engineer and 30 years old , like me, you would gladly take the money instead of all the other stuff. But I like the fact that children who are born into working poor families in Sweden will have a much healthier upbringing than if they were born in the US.
- krageon 7y ago
  > generally enjoy higher standard of living This is the country that saw the invention of the "food desert", that has an absolutely terrifyingly high incidence of opiate addiction and that routinely shuffles entire cities worth of homeless around the country so they're someone else's problem? That US?
  - burntoutfire 7y ago
    It's also the country where not being able to live in a detached house is mostly seen as not worthy of middle class. That's far above the standard of Western Europe, where people in middle class lives in flats.
    - pimmen 7y ago
      In Sweden, most middle class people live in detached houses. However, most young professionals desire to live in apartments because it's simply more convenient. I hate the garden and I hate driving. This article is about Sweden, remember. My parents have two houses, one outside Gothenburg (big enough that they have converted the floor me and my younger brother lived in into two apartments, one if four bedrooms the other one is two) and a beach house further up north. They're from a completely different generation with different priorities.
- bakuninsbart 7y ago
  This is not backed up by statistics. Look at life satisfaction or mood-polls. GDP/capita or stuff like that does not tell you how people are actually doing. Even in rich cities like NYC or SF, I did not feel like people had a higher standard of living - unless they were part of the 1%