8 ms·

Orthogonal to your anecdote, tech salaries in London are ridiculously low :(

by tsycho 7y ago

loriverkutya 7y ago
I’m not sure why you think this, tech salaries are not low compared to the London average.
- CalRobert 7y ago
  But the London average is what's low.
  - rcxdude 7y ago
    No, it's the US tech average which is ridiculously high. (Seriously, London has some of the highest salaries outside the US).
    - CalRobert 7y ago
      I suppose I mean for the quality of life offered. If nothing else Dublin seems much better.
      - pas 7y ago
        Dublin is gloomy, boring (pubs) and the only thing it has going for it is that other parts of the island are close. London on the other hand is a lot more vibrant. At least this was my impression from a short stay.
  - maest 7y ago
    Compared to what? Surely the average just _is_ and everything else gets measured against that.
vertig0h 7y ago
Welcome to Europe. European salaries in general are low. Take home pay too, and goods and services are much more expensive. It's important for people to realize this, that "free" healthcare, education, etc. are far from free.
- n4r9 7y ago
  Not all goods and services are more expensive, in my experience. I've been living in Cali (not bay area) for a couple of months now and the price of fresh fruit and veg in the shops is outrageous compared to UK. Bell peppers for example seem to cost two or three times as much, even though California is the top producing state in the US. Eating out in restaurants is definitely more expensive when you factor the tip in, whilst fast food is comparably priced. The only good that I've found to be noticeably cheaper is petrol.
  - unishark 7y ago
    Bell pepper pricing is just bizarre. Plenty other forms of produce are dirt cheap. You can eat fruits and salad every day and do it cheaper than any other country I've been to, as long as you don't insist on outliers like multi-colored bell peppers in your food. As for restaurants, technically fast food counts as restaurants. So I'd be surprised if the US wasn't one of the cheapest in the developed world there too. Hard to compare if you want to factor in quality though.
    - n4r9 7y ago
      True, fast food is probably a bit cheaper than the UK, especially when considering cost relative to average disposable income. I've found the prices of a lot of fruit and veg surprisingly high though, including things like oranges, onions and eggplants. Also, bread! Can't find a loaf less than $1.79 in the local Cali supermarkets but would be able to get one for 80p or less in the UK.
  - Silhouette 7y ago
    The only good that I've found to be noticeably cheaper is petrol. And that is because the vast majority of the price of petrol here in the UK is tax (in fact, multiple taxes). Successive UK governments have long used tax policy, on fuel and otherwise, to deter the use of wasteful, highly polluting vehicles. This has arguably been somewhat successful, though it will be a moot point within a generation in any case because eliminating petrol and diesel vehicles entirely is clearly the goal for several good reasons.
noelwelsh 7y ago
US median family income was $60,336 in 2017, and $71,805 in California[1]. Junior developers in Silicon Valley have starting salaries around $110000, and I've heard for new college graduates getting up to $150K. I.e. twice median family income. You cannot have these high salaries without someone else getting shafted. There simply isn't enough money for everyone to be earning like this. Whether you consider inequality a problem is down to your politics, but in general the UK is a more equal society (slightly less social mobility but less inequality) than the US and hence salaries are lower. [1]: https://www.deptofnumbers.com/income/california/ https://www.deptofnumbers.com/income/california/
- scarejunba 7y ago
  > You cannot have these high salaries without someone else getting shafted. There simply isn't enough money for everyone to be earning like this. Please substantiate your claim to this being zero sum. It does not seem self-evident.
  - noelwelsh 7y ago
    I made no such claim. You're reading that into my words. If I have a data set from which I pick a value higher than the median there must be a value lower than the median ... otherwise the median would be higher. It's not a statement about economics but about math. I'm not saying there cannot be economic growth (though, generally, wage inequality is rising so most people aren't seeing the benefits of this).
    - wallacoloo 7y ago
      It sounds like you’re saying that if GP fights for higher salary, that comes from the loss of someone already making less than him. Whereas many of us have the impression that higher salaries come at the loss of investors or shareholders, who are usually better off than yourself. Otherwise, who exactly are you shafting by asking for a higher salary?
      - 7y ago
tiew9Vii 7y ago
Compared to the US, absolutely. Compared to the rest of the UK, London salaries are significantly higher in general. I cry when I see juniors in the US posting earnings 2-3x that of a senior developer in the UK. If I could work in the US I’d be there tomorrow just for the work.
chinesempire 7y ago
But you don't have to go full breaking bad if you get sick. If you look at the official data[0] 2016-2018 you get this: Item 2016 2017 2018 -------------------------------------------------------------- Average income before taxes $74,664 $73,573 $78,635 Average annual expenditures 57,311 60,060 61,224 Which gives a net bonus of ~20% before taxes, with an average 25% tax rate (it depends a lot on where you are, so I stayed low) you get around 15% net gain, excluding medical bills. The average London household spend is around £650 per week[1] or £33.800 per year The average London salary[2] is around £736.5 per year or £38.298 per year which gives a net gain of over ~13%, but with medical bills included. But you can easily make 70k-100k in London working in finance or SWE. All in all is not that different (it actually is, UK is better on average, we are not even accounting for things like job seekers allowance - the dole in UK - or the benefits for having kids etc. etc.). [0] https://www.bls.gov/news.release/cesan.nr0.htm https://www.bls.gov/news.release/cesan.nr0.htm [1] https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/personalandhouseholdfinances/expenditure/bulletins/familyspendingintheuk/financialyearending2018 https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/personal... [2] https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/earningsandworkinghours/bulletins/annualsurveyofhoursandearnings/2019 https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwor...

Orthogonal to your anecdote, tech salaries in London are ridiculously low :(

by tsycho 7y ago

Orthogonal to your anecdote, tech salaries in London are ridiculously low :(

loriverkutya 7y ago

I’m not sure why you think this, tech salaries are not low compared to the London average.

CalRobert 7y ago
But the London average is what's low.
- rcxdude 7y ago
  No, it's the US tech average which is ridiculously high. (Seriously, London has some of the highest salaries outside the US).
  - CalRobert 7y ago
    I suppose I mean for the quality of life offered. If nothing else Dublin seems much better.
    - pas 7y ago
      Dublin is gloomy, boring (pubs) and the only thing it has going for it is that other parts of the island are close. London on the other hand is a lot more vibrant. At least this was my impression from a short stay.
- maest 7y ago
  Compared to what? Surely the average just _is_ and everything else gets measured against that.

vertig0h 7y ago

Welcome to Europe. European salaries in general are low. Take home pay too, and goods and services are much more expensive. It's important for people to realize this, that "free" healthcare, education, etc. are far from free.

n4r9 7y ago
Not all goods and services are more expensive, in my experience. I've been living in Cali (not bay area) for a couple of months now and the price of fresh fruit and veg in the shops is outrageous compared to UK. Bell peppers for example seem to cost two or three times as much, even though California is the top producing state in the US. Eating out in restaurants is definitely more expensive when you factor the tip in, whilst fast food is comparably priced. The only good that I've found to be noticeably cheaper is petrol.
- unishark 7y ago
  Bell pepper pricing is just bizarre. Plenty other forms of produce are dirt cheap. You can eat fruits and salad every day and do it cheaper than any other country I've been to, as long as you don't insist on outliers like multi-colored bell peppers in your food. As for restaurants, technically fast food counts as restaurants. So I'd be surprised if the US wasn't one of the cheapest in the developed world there too. Hard to compare if you want to factor in quality though.
  - n4r9 7y ago
    True, fast food is probably a bit cheaper than the UK, especially when considering cost relative to average disposable income. I've found the prices of a lot of fruit and veg surprisingly high though, including things like oranges, onions and eggplants. Also, bread! Can't find a loaf less than $1.79 in the local Cali supermarkets but would be able to get one for 80p or less in the UK.
- Silhouette 7y ago
  The only good that I've found to be noticeably cheaper is petrol. And that is because the vast majority of the price of petrol here in the UK is tax (in fact, multiple taxes). Successive UK governments have long used tax policy, on fuel and otherwise, to deter the use of wasteful, highly polluting vehicles. This has arguably been somewhat successful, though it will be a moot point within a generation in any case because eliminating petrol and diesel vehicles entirely is clearly the goal for several good reasons.

noelwelsh 7y ago

US median family income was $60,336 in 2017, and $71,805 in California[1]. Junior developers in Silicon Valley have starting salaries around $110000, and I've heard for new college graduates getting up to $150K. I.e. twice median family income. You cannot have these high salaries without someone else getting shafted. There simply isn't enough money for everyone to be earning like this. Whether you consider inequality a problem is down to your politics, but in general the UK is a more equal society (slightly less social mobility but less inequality) than the US and hence salaries are lower. [1]: https://www.deptofnumbers.com/income/california/ https://www.deptofnumbers.com/income/california/

scarejunba 7y ago
> You cannot have these high salaries without someone else getting shafted. There simply isn't enough money for everyone to be earning like this. Please substantiate your claim to this being zero sum. It does not seem self-evident.
- noelwelsh 7y ago
  I made no such claim. You're reading that into my words. If I have a data set from which I pick a value higher than the median there must be a value lower than the median ... otherwise the median would be higher. It's not a statement about economics but about math. I'm not saying there cannot be economic growth (though, generally, wage inequality is rising so most people aren't seeing the benefits of this).
  - wallacoloo 7y ago
    It sounds like you’re saying that if GP fights for higher salary, that comes from the loss of someone already making less than him. Whereas many of us have the impression that higher salaries come at the loss of investors or shareholders, who are usually better off than yourself. Otherwise, who exactly are you shafting by asking for a higher salary?
    - 7y ago

tiew9Vii 7y ago

Compared to the US, absolutely. Compared to the rest of the UK, London salaries are significantly higher in general. I cry when I see juniors in the US posting earnings 2-3x that of a senior developer in the UK. If I could work in the US I’d be there tomorrow just for the work.

chinesempire 7y ago

But you don't have to go full breaking bad if you get sick. If you look at the official data[0] 2016-2018 you get this: Item 2016 2017 2018 -------------------------------------------------------------- Average income before taxes $74,664 $73,573 $78,635 Average annual expenditures 57,311 60,060 61,224 Which gives a net bonus of ~20% before taxes, with an average 25% tax rate (it depends a lot on where you are, so I stayed low) you get around 15% net gain, excluding medical bills. The average London household spend is around £650 per week[1] or £33.800 per year The average London salary[2] is around £736.5 per year or £38.298 per year which gives a net gain of over ~13%, but with medical bills included. But you can easily make 70k-100k in London working in finance or SWE. All in all is not that different (it actually is, UK is better on average, we are not even accounting for things like job seekers allowance - the dole in UK - or the benefits for having kids etc. etc.). [0] https://www.bls.gov/news.release/cesan.nr0.htm https://www.bls.gov/news.release/cesan.nr0.htm [1] https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/personalandhouseholdfinances/expenditure/bulletins/familyspendingintheuk/financialyearending2018 https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/personal... [2] https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/earningsandworkinghours/bulletins/annualsurveyofhoursandearnings/2019 https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwor...