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I always support disclosing salary information but I found it silly that the original tweet was prefaced with some greater goal of helping minorities or disadva
by j7ake 7y ago
I always support disclosing salary information but I found it silly that the original tweet was prefaced with some greater goal of helping minorities or disadvantaged people. The subtext was clearly a flex to show how good developer salaries are in the USA, and by disguising it as doing some social good the tweet came off as distasteful.
A person in Nigeria is not being helped by the person in US disclosing their salary information.
- senordevnyc 7y agoWhen people in the US talk about disadvantaged minorities, they generally mean minorities in the US. And a bunch of white American male software engineers disclosing their salaries can definitely help black and female software engineers.
- j7ake 7y agoAre black and female software engineers in USA right now the demographic that really needs helping? Im not American, so I probably need clarification, but what is their current situation compared to white males in the same position at a company?
- senordevnyc 7y agoMany people certainly seem to think so. I’d be a little surprised myself if the answer was no. Anecdotally speaking, they certainly seem underrepresented, but I’m less sure about current pay disparity.
- j7ake 7y agoThanks for the info, I guess I should read more into it and educate myself.
- scarface74 7y agoI really hate meta discussions, but that being said, I’m going to do it anyway. It’s rare on a discussion forum that a thread goes from - righteous indignation - clarifying non insulting reply - reply with a genuine question - reply with a genuine answer. - the original poster admits that they should learn more. I had to commend both of you.
- senordevnyc 7y agoIt’s really rare when I’m involved but I’m trying to do better :)
- iamben 7y agoYeah, this kind of thing is what's kept me returning (daily) to HN for the last ten years, and only sporadically using Reddit etc.
- theredlion 7y agoThat's an interesting question. I'm personally aware of several large companies in my area which, due to diversity pressure, blatantly discriminate in favor of minorities and women. The performance required from a white man in an interview for the same job is higher. That is to say that a white man will be openly discarded in favor of a minority/woman with a similar background when applying for the same job. This is a common occurrence.
- senordevnyc 7y agoDo you have any evidence for this? Have you seen data covering hiring evals for many different candidates? Or is this just your own bias telling a story based on anecdotes and rumors? I’m not saying this never happens, but it’s much easier to tell yourself that the reason you didn’t get a job was because of some unfair factor beyond your control than to admit maybe you just failed to meet the bar.
- theredlion 7y agoI know a lot of people. This is based on conversations with those involved in the hiring process at various companies. They are proud of it and see it as not only a plus, but a social benefit, which causes people to be very boastfully vocal in social situations Very strange time we live in. I do agree with your second paragraph, but this isn't regarding anything that has happened to me personally
- senordevnyc 7y agoOh, we’re trading anecdotes? Well, I know a lot of people, including many involved in hiring at various large tech companies, including myself. I’m sure they have programs to encourage diversity in hiring, but I seriously doubt they’re telling you they “blatantly discriminate” against white men and that white men have to perform much better in an interview in order to be hired. That’s an incomplete and simplistic story.
- theredlion 7y ago
- adamsea 7y agoThey often - or maybe even usually - get paid less for the same work. Plenty of studies and articles out there discussing this from both sides (saying it happens, saying it doesn’t) so imho google is the best way to go if you are curious.
- metalforever 7y agoFemales definitely make less across the board. I want to say around 80 percent of the time , and it’s usually because of HR, not the engineering team.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- LadyCailin 7y agoEven if they aren’t, disclosing salaries can find who does need help.
- paxys 7y agoAbsolutely. And it isn't always about discrimination. People who consider themselves outsiders in the field will usually jump on the first offer they get, while the expected practice would be to get multiple offers and negotiate. They will also not ask for raises and promotions as much as their co-workers. Both of these result in a sizable disparity in salary, even though they may be higher performing than their co-workers. Seeing a list of "here's what people around you are making" is VERY helpful to give one the confidence to finally ask for that raise they deserve.
- agumonkey 7y agoThe interview must be weird after that. Candidate is now confident he should have more but the recruiter is still trying to extort him to a point.
- xenihn 7y agoI see just as many asian female engineers as white male software engineers in the bay. And more asian female engineers than male black+hispanic+pacific islander+native american engineers combined. You should be much more concerned with class than gender, otherwise you won't actually solve any issues related to diversity. You'll only make it worse.
- senordevnyc 7y agoI see just as many asian female engineers as white male software engineers in the bay. There’s almost no chance this is true. “White” and “male” are both overrepresented in software engineering. Would love to see the data though.
- xenihn 7y agoMost male engineers I see are east asian (predominantly Chinese) or Indian.
- senordevnyc 7y agoThis is a little out of date, but doesn’t seem to be the case: https://www.revealnews.org/article/heres-the-clearest-picture-of-silicon-valleys-diversity-yet/ https://www.revealnews.org/article/heres-the-clearest-pictur...
- xenihn 7y agoCome see it for yourself. I can get you into a bunch of the biggest offices & campuses through friends.
- senordevnyc 7y agoI work at a big tech company and I have friends at many others. What you’re reporting does not match my experience, theirs, the data, or common sense. These companies are constantly getting flak for low diversity. If white men were a clear minority, they’d be shouting it from the rooftops. What you observe in your day to day is a poor barometer for the overall diversity of an entire industry.
- lazyasciiart 7y agoThat is a very surprising interpretation to me. What made you think the author was thinking about anyone outside the US?
- tnolet 7y agoNot OP, but it’s kinda besides the point. Using Twitter for this makes it global by default.
- lazyasciiart 7y agoIt's not beside the point when the point is "he was trying to make non-americans feel bad".
- j7ake 7y agoIndeed the original tweet could have been more US-centric than I originally read (the replies came from all over the world, I pointed out Nigeria because there was one reply from there) My main point wasn’t that he was trying to make non Americans bad but rather I don’t believe his premise that he was disclosing his salary information for a greater good of helping minorities and disadvantaged people. Again I support disclosing salary openly but disguising it as an act of social good sounds distasteful to me.
- lazyasciiart 7y agoThere is a lot of data showing that salary differences for women and minorities are reduced in environments where there is more available information about everyone's salaries, to the point where I thought it was generally taken for granted. I absolutely believe that the poster was sincere in his intent. If you haven't considered this before, here's an article that covers some of how it can help: https://www.bustle.com/p/sharing-salary-information-at-work-is-a-powerful-way-to-fight-the-gender-pay-gap-heres-how-to-do-it-8711500 https://www.bustle.com/p/sharing-salary-information-at-work-...
- badfrog 7y ago
- bibobap 7y ago> A person in Nigeria is not being helped by the person in US disclosing their salary information. It might inspire them to move, or work remotely, etc.
- tnolet 7y agoYes. This is the same vibe I got. A dick measuring contest between the 1% SV based software developers. But wrapped in a “help the world” message. The information is fascinating though. And we could have misread the subtext.
- badfrog 7y agoThat's not fair. NYC-based software developers also like to measure our junk.
- DonHopkins 7y agoMeasure twice, cut once.
- Swizec 7y agoAs someone who moved from eastern-ish europe to SV I can tell you that these threads help. In the olden days of HN around 2010 I always used to think “Wait why do those folks make 5x what I make? I’m just as good and know just as much” And the answer was “Because those companies make more or at least get more investment so the value delivered is higher” I moved. Now I put more into savings every year than my just as talented peers back home make in total salary. Edit: many of those peers freelance remotely for US companies and also have very healthy savings. It’s the ones who stayed fully local that are screwed
- eecc 7y agoGet off your white horse. While I do appreciate the difference in salary I also see the chasm in housing prices, quality of life, health insurance and so on... Oh and where I live there’s no need to gaze away from the homeless living on the streets. Our taxes pay for many social workers doing their best
- random314 7y agoThe shtick about minorities was absurd. If the poster wanted to really inform his audience, all he had to do was link to levels.fyi with several thousand anonymous salary reports and skip the virtue signaling. Weird flex but ok ....
- DonHopkins 7y agoIs virtue signaling so much worse than discrimination, that people should not perform acts of social good or encourage others to, because somebody might interpret it as "virtue signaling"? There should be a term "iniquity signaling," for going out of your way to derail a conversation about systematic discrimination to complain about other people "virtue signaling," as if it were the worst problem facing society (or even a problem at all). And why doesn't flag waving and bible thumping ever count as virtue signaling? Isn't writing a resume and a cover letter for a job application the purest, most self-indulgent form of financially motivated "virtue signaling"? How are you supposed to get a job and pay the rent without doing that?
- snovv_crash 7y ago> Isn't writing a resume and a cover letter for a job application the purest, most self-indulgent form of financially motivated "virtue signaling"? That's entirely different, because it is done transparently. The accusation here is that it is claimed that this work is done to benefit minorities, whereas the real motivation was the social benefits of having claimed to have done something for minorities.
- throwawayhhakdl 7y agoA person in Nigeria isn’t a minority, unless they’re not ethnically Nigerian.
- d0mine 7y agoA person in Nigeria may work remotely for a US company, therefore the information about salaries may be useful.