8 ms·

When I started my career in software engineering, I increased my salary 300% in one year as a result of ignoring taboos and talking to peers about what they wer

When I started my career in software engineering, I increased my salary 300% in one year as a result of ignoring taboos and talking to peers about what they were earning. Anecdote yes, but perhaps useful to some who look at these numbers and wonder if they could earn more. Chances are you could. The taboo around talking about salaries is to the benefit of companies and who do actually have that information already. Negotiations in which one party has more information usually go better for that party. So it's good to see a new generation of engineers being comfortable talking about this, and in a very public way.

dijit 7y ago
When I was a junior sysadmin in London I earned 26k; If not for a senior engineer talking openly about salary I would not have had the guts to ask for a significant increase. At the time the very senior people in the company were earning 75-85k, and the mid-levels between 32-45k. I was fortunate enough to be taught very well, I became senior in that company in a very short amount of time, but I never got the raise that the seniors got, but when I was looking at other companies, I knew what I was "worth" realistically. I'm eternally thankful for the internal culture at that company during that time, because I would not have had nearly the amount of confidence necessary to ask for such a (seemingly) large amount of money.
- tsycho 7y ago
  Orthogonal to your anecdote, tech salaries in London are ridiculously low :(
  - loriverkutya 7y ago
    I’m not sure why you think this, tech salaries are not low compared to the London average.
    - CalRobert 7y ago
      But the London average is what's low.
      - rcxdude 7y ago
        No, it's the US tech average which is ridiculously high. (Seriously, London has some of the highest salaries outside the US).
        CalRobert 7y ago
        I suppose I mean for the quality of life offered. If nothing else Dublin seems much better.
        pas 7y ago
        Dublin is gloomy, boring (pubs) and the only thing it has going for it is that other parts of the island are close. London on the other hand is a lot more vibrant. At least this was my impression from a short stay.
      - maest 7y ago
        Compared to what? Surely the average just _is_ and everything else gets measured against that.
  - vertig0h 7y ago
    Welcome to Europe. European salaries in general are low. Take home pay too, and goods and services are much more expensive. It's important for people to realize this, that "free" healthcare, education, etc. are far from free.
    - n4r9 7y ago
      Not all goods and services are more expensive, in my experience. I've been living in Cali (not bay area) for a couple of months now and the price of fresh fruit and veg in the shops is outrageous compared to UK. Bell peppers for example seem to cost two or three times as much, even though California is the top producing state in the US. Eating out in restaurants is definitely more expensive when you factor the tip in, whilst fast food is comparably priced. The only good that I've found to be noticeably cheaper is petrol.
      - unishark 7y ago
        Bell pepper pricing is just bizarre. Plenty other forms of produce are dirt cheap. You can eat fruits and salad every day and do it cheaper than any other country I've been to, as long as you don't insist on outliers like multi-colored bell peppers in your food. As for restaurants, technically fast food counts as restaurants. So I'd be surprised if the US wasn't one of the cheapest in the developed world there too. Hard to compare if you want to factor in quality though.
        n4r9 7y ago
        True, fast food is probably a bit cheaper than the UK, especially when considering cost relative to average disposable income. I've found the prices of a lot of fruit and veg surprisingly high though, including things like oranges, onions and eggplants. Also, bread! Can't find a loaf less than $1.79 in the local Cali supermarkets but would be able to get one for 80p or less in the UK.
      - Silhouette 7y ago
        The only good that I've found to be noticeably cheaper is petrol. And that is because the vast majority of the price of petrol here in the UK is tax (in fact, multiple taxes). Successive UK governments have long used tax policy, on fuel and otherwise, to deter the use of wasteful, highly polluting vehicles. This has arguably been somewhat successful, though it will be a moot point within a generation in any case because eliminating petrol and diesel vehicles entirely is clearly the goal for several good reasons.
  - noelwelsh 7y ago
    US median family income was $60,336 in 2017, and $71,805 in California[1]. Junior developers in Silicon Valley have starting salaries around $110000, and I've heard for new college graduates getting up to $150K. I.e. twice median family income. You cannot have these high salaries without someone else getting shafted. There simply isn't enough money for everyone to be earning like this. Whether you consider inequality a problem is down to your politics, but in general the UK is a more equal society (slightly less social mobility but less inequality) than the US and hence salaries are lower. [1]: https://www.deptofnumbers.com/income/california/ https://www.deptofnumbers.com/income/california/
    - scarejunba 7y ago
      > You cannot have these high salaries without someone else getting shafted. There simply isn't enough money for everyone to be earning like this. Please substantiate your claim to this being zero sum. It does not seem self-evident.
      - noelwelsh 7y ago
        I made no such claim. You're reading that into my words. If I have a data set from which I pick a value higher than the median there must be a value lower than the median ... otherwise the median would be higher. It's not a statement about economics but about math. I'm not saying there cannot be economic growth (though, generally, wage inequality is rising so most people aren't seeing the benefits of this).
        wallacoloo 7y ago
        It sounds like you’re saying that if GP fights for higher salary, that comes from the loss of someone already making less than him. Whereas many of us have the impression that higher salaries come at the loss of investors or shareholders, who are usually better off than yourself. Otherwise, who exactly are you shafting by asking for a higher salary?
        7y ago
  - tiew9Vii 7y ago
    Compared to the US, absolutely. Compared to the rest of the UK, London salaries are significantly higher in general. I cry when I see juniors in the US posting earnings 2-3x that of a senior developer in the UK. If I could work in the US I’d be there tomorrow just for the work.
  - chinesempire 7y ago
    But you don't have to go full breaking bad if you get sick. If you look at the official data[0] 2016-2018 you get this: Item 2016 2017 2018 -------------------------------------------------------------- Average income before taxes $74,664 $73,573 $78,635 Average annual expenditures 57,311 60,060 61,224 Which gives a net bonus of ~20% before taxes, with an average 25% tax rate (it depends a lot on where you are, so I stayed low) you get around 15% net gain, excluding medical bills. The average London household spend is around £650 per week[1] or £33.800 per year The average London salary[2] is around £736.5 per year or £38.298 per year which gives a net gain of over ~13%, but with medical bills included. But you can easily make 70k-100k in London working in finance or SWE. All in all is not that different (it actually is, UK is better on average, we are not even accounting for things like job seekers allowance - the dole in UK - or the benefits for having kids etc. etc.). [0] https://www.bls.gov/news.release/cesan.nr0.htm https://www.bls.gov/news.release/cesan.nr0.htm [1] https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/personalandhouseholdfinances/expenditure/bulletins/familyspendingintheuk/financialyearending2018 https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/personal... [2] https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/earningsandworkinghours/bulletins/annualsurveyofhoursandearnings/2019 https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwor...
- shuckles 7y ago
  Not on topic, but can you point me to some information about the spending habits of someone making that much in a city which I understand is fairly expensive?
  - dijit 7y ago
    How much money? 26k? I was living in a shared house in Lewisham; which is not an attractive area of the city, the house itself was fairly run-down and there was no heating (electricty would power off because it was on a meter). This room cost me 400gbp/mo, and I put 20gbp for electric and 20gbp for gas in the meters every month. Food was relatively cheap, at most another 400gbp/mo Phone contract was 30gbp/mo, that was my entire outgoing essentially. 1,700gbp was my net salary (roughly) so I had around 20-30% of that to "play" with, most of it went on trains to see my family or taking girls out for expensive dinners though.
    - fyfy18 7y ago
      I lived in a London 10 years ago, and both salary and expenses were pretty similar. There are a lot of cheap or free (public museums and art galleries are free) things you can do in London if you know where to look. Unlike SF travel is a heck of a lot cheaper, because there is usable public transport. I lived in zone 3 and worked in zone 1 and typically paid no more than £20/week for travel (usually by train or tube) - compare this to SF where a single Uber trip across town could be that. I was there again last year for a few months as a contractor, and prices hadn't changed that much other than housing: This time I rented a studio in zone 2 which was £1200/mo. It included water and heating, and I paid around £20/mo for electricity (with a pre-pay meter so quite expensive). This was a short term contract though, for long term I saw similar places for £1000/mo or less. I usually ate out for lunch, which was £5-£10/day. I would cook dinner, spending around £20/week on groceries. Coffee was around £2.50 for a cappucino. Sometimes I walked to work, getting breakfast out on the way which was another £2 or so. I took the bus, cycled or walked to work, so my travel expenses were under £15/week. I'd go home to my family at weekends, so can't comment on 'going out' costs. Compared to before it isn't that much different. You can live quite well as a single person on £1500/mo in London. That's leaving nothing on the table and is above the living wage, so you can see where the problems come from.
sbmthakur 7y ago
This is true. I got a similar raise and having a friend working at the company I was negotiating with helped a lot.

dijit 7y ago

When I was a junior sysadmin in London I earned 26k; If not for a senior engineer talking openly about salary I would not have had the guts to ask for a significant increase. At the time the very senior people in the company were earning 75-85k, and the mid-levels between 32-45k. I was fortunate enough to be taught very well, I became senior in that company in a very short amount of time, but I never got the raise that the seniors got, but when I was looking at other companies, I knew what I was "worth" realistically. I'm eternally thankful for the internal culture at that company during that time, because I would not have had nearly the amount of confidence necessary to ask for such a (seemingly) large amount of money.

tsycho 7y ago
Orthogonal to your anecdote, tech salaries in London are ridiculously low :(
- loriverkutya 7y ago
  I’m not sure why you think this, tech salaries are not low compared to the London average.
  - CalRobert 7y ago
    But the London average is what's low.
    - rcxdude 7y ago
      No, it's the US tech average which is ridiculously high. (Seriously, London has some of the highest salaries outside the US).
      - CalRobert 7y ago
        I suppose I mean for the quality of life offered. If nothing else Dublin seems much better.
        pas 7y ago
        Dublin is gloomy, boring (pubs) and the only thing it has going for it is that other parts of the island are close. London on the other hand is a lot more vibrant. At least this was my impression from a short stay.
    - maest 7y ago
      Compared to what? Surely the average just _is_ and everything else gets measured against that.
- vertig0h 7y ago
  Welcome to Europe. European salaries in general are low. Take home pay too, and goods and services are much more expensive. It's important for people to realize this, that "free" healthcare, education, etc. are far from free.
  - n4r9 7y ago
    Not all goods and services are more expensive, in my experience. I've been living in Cali (not bay area) for a couple of months now and the price of fresh fruit and veg in the shops is outrageous compared to UK. Bell peppers for example seem to cost two or three times as much, even though California is the top producing state in the US. Eating out in restaurants is definitely more expensive when you factor the tip in, whilst fast food is comparably priced. The only good that I've found to be noticeably cheaper is petrol.
    - unishark 7y ago
      Bell pepper pricing is just bizarre. Plenty other forms of produce are dirt cheap. You can eat fruits and salad every day and do it cheaper than any other country I've been to, as long as you don't insist on outliers like multi-colored bell peppers in your food. As for restaurants, technically fast food counts as restaurants. So I'd be surprised if the US wasn't one of the cheapest in the developed world there too. Hard to compare if you want to factor in quality though.
      - n4r9 7y ago
        True, fast food is probably a bit cheaper than the UK, especially when considering cost relative to average disposable income. I've found the prices of a lot of fruit and veg surprisingly high though, including things like oranges, onions and eggplants. Also, bread! Can't find a loaf less than $1.79 in the local Cali supermarkets but would be able to get one for 80p or less in the UK.
    - Silhouette 7y ago
      The only good that I've found to be noticeably cheaper is petrol. And that is because the vast majority of the price of petrol here in the UK is tax (in fact, multiple taxes). Successive UK governments have long used tax policy, on fuel and otherwise, to deter the use of wasteful, highly polluting vehicles. This has arguably been somewhat successful, though it will be a moot point within a generation in any case because eliminating petrol and diesel vehicles entirely is clearly the goal for several good reasons.
- noelwelsh 7y ago
  US median family income was $60,336 in 2017, and $71,805 in California[1]. Junior developers in Silicon Valley have starting salaries around $110000, and I've heard for new college graduates getting up to $150K. I.e. twice median family income. You cannot have these high salaries without someone else getting shafted. There simply isn't enough money for everyone to be earning like this. Whether you consider inequality a problem is down to your politics, but in general the UK is a more equal society (slightly less social mobility but less inequality) than the US and hence salaries are lower. [1]: https://www.deptofnumbers.com/income/california/ https://www.deptofnumbers.com/income/california/
  - scarejunba 7y ago
    > You cannot have these high salaries without someone else getting shafted. There simply isn't enough money for everyone to be earning like this. Please substantiate your claim to this being zero sum. It does not seem self-evident.
    - noelwelsh 7y ago
      I made no such claim. You're reading that into my words. If I have a data set from which I pick a value higher than the median there must be a value lower than the median ... otherwise the median would be higher. It's not a statement about economics but about math. I'm not saying there cannot be economic growth (though, generally, wage inequality is rising so most people aren't seeing the benefits of this).
      - wallacoloo 7y ago
        It sounds like you’re saying that if GP fights for higher salary, that comes from the loss of someone already making less than him. Whereas many of us have the impression that higher salaries come at the loss of investors or shareholders, who are usually better off than yourself. Otherwise, who exactly are you shafting by asking for a higher salary?
        7y ago
- tiew9Vii 7y ago
  Compared to the US, absolutely. Compared to the rest of the UK, London salaries are significantly higher in general. I cry when I see juniors in the US posting earnings 2-3x that of a senior developer in the UK. If I could work in the US I’d be there tomorrow just for the work.
- chinesempire 7y ago
  But you don't have to go full breaking bad if you get sick. If you look at the official data[0] 2016-2018 you get this: Item 2016 2017 2018 -------------------------------------------------------------- Average income before taxes $74,664 $73,573 $78,635 Average annual expenditures 57,311 60,060 61,224 Which gives a net bonus of ~20% before taxes, with an average 25% tax rate (it depends a lot on where you are, so I stayed low) you get around 15% net gain, excluding medical bills. The average London household spend is around £650 per week[1] or £33.800 per year The average London salary[2] is around £736.5 per year or £38.298 per year which gives a net gain of over ~13%, but with medical bills included. But you can easily make 70k-100k in London working in finance or SWE. All in all is not that different (it actually is, UK is better on average, we are not even accounting for things like job seekers allowance - the dole in UK - or the benefits for having kids etc. etc.). [0] https://www.bls.gov/news.release/cesan.nr0.htm https://www.bls.gov/news.release/cesan.nr0.htm [1] https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/personalandhouseholdfinances/expenditure/bulletins/familyspendingintheuk/financialyearending2018 https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/personal... [2] https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/earningsandworkinghours/bulletins/annualsurveyofhoursandearnings/2019 https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwor...
shuckles 7y ago
Not on topic, but can you point me to some information about the spending habits of someone making that much in a city which I understand is fairly expensive?
- dijit 7y ago
  How much money? 26k? I was living in a shared house in Lewisham; which is not an attractive area of the city, the house itself was fairly run-down and there was no heating (electricty would power off because it was on a meter). This room cost me 400gbp/mo, and I put 20gbp for electric and 20gbp for gas in the meters every month. Food was relatively cheap, at most another 400gbp/mo Phone contract was 30gbp/mo, that was my entire outgoing essentially. 1,700gbp was my net salary (roughly) so I had around 20-30% of that to "play" with, most of it went on trains to see my family or taking girls out for expensive dinners though.
  - fyfy18 7y ago
    I lived in a London 10 years ago, and both salary and expenses were pretty similar. There are a lot of cheap or free (public museums and art galleries are free) things you can do in London if you know where to look. Unlike SF travel is a heck of a lot cheaper, because there is usable public transport. I lived in zone 3 and worked in zone 1 and typically paid no more than £20/week for travel (usually by train or tube) - compare this to SF where a single Uber trip across town could be that. I was there again last year for a few months as a contractor, and prices hadn't changed that much other than housing: This time I rented a studio in zone 2 which was £1200/mo. It included water and heating, and I paid around £20/mo for electricity (with a pre-pay meter so quite expensive). This was a short term contract though, for long term I saw similar places for £1000/mo or less. I usually ate out for lunch, which was £5-£10/day. I would cook dinner, spending around £20/week on groceries. Coffee was around £2.50 for a cappucino. Sometimes I walked to work, getting breakfast out on the way which was another £2 or so. I took the bus, cycled or walked to work, so my travel expenses were under £15/week. I'd go home to my family at weekends, so can't comment on 'going out' costs. Compared to before it isn't that much different. You can live quite well as a single person on £1500/mo in London. That's leaving nothing on the table and is above the living wage, so you can see where the problems come from.

sbmthakur 7y ago

This is true. I got a similar raise and having a friend working at the company I was negotiating with helped a lot.