8 ms·

>Also a homeowner, and I'm a YIMBY (or PHIMBY) for selfish reasons as well. My neighborhood is mostly old white people, because they bought their houses years a

>Also a homeowner, and I'm a YIMBY (or PHIMBY) for selfish reasons as well. My neighborhood is mostly old white people, because they bought their houses years ago and stayed put. Hmm, here I am thinking I don't really care about the skin color of my neighbors. It's none of my business. But, I try and not judge people on immutable characteristics like color and age.

davidw 7y ago
> I don't really care about the skin color of my neighbors. That's a nice sentiment, but if you dig a bit, there are probably reasons why his neighborhood is full of "older white people", and there's a good chance that it wasn't a natural process of sorting. Recommended reading: https://amzn.to/2St6rOM https://amzn.to/2St6rOM
- brobinson 7y ago
  ^ undisclosed affiliate link
  - davidw 7y ago
    Also a link to a site whose owner makes utter gobs of money if that's of concern to people. I usually get $10 a month or so if I occasionally post a link that I think is highly relevant to a discussion, that I turn around and spend on more books. Happy to buy anyone a beer with the massive amounts of cash I'm raking in.
not_literally 7y ago
You seem to be misinterpreting what they meant by "old white people" to show this forum (and yourself?) how virtuous you are.
- SlowRobotAhead 7y ago
  No, I just think an educated forum of people that should know better should not engage in willful casual racism just because it's OK to hate on white people. But I know this is an extreme position I have! I personally have the hope that someday old people will be judged not on the color of their skin, but the content of their character. Perhaps if you didn't post your defense from a throwaway I'd think you weren't just trying to justify virtue - that someone of a specific color and age caused all of California's housing problems. Do you want to play the "is it racist if we change the color" game?
sadproton 7y ago
Age is the most mutable characteristic I can possibly imagine.
- SlowRobotAhead 7y ago
  immuutable: unchanging over time or unable to be changed Well, crap, that's a fair point... But... You can't go backwards and you can't go forwards any faster than anyone else. You can't change it yourself no matter how hard you try (general relativity spaceships aside of course).
JackFr 7y ago
Age is very relevant for schools which are typically paid for with local property taxes. If you somehow find yourself moved to a so-called NORC, naturally occurring retirement community, you'll find that older people people with adult children on limited incomes are more reluctant to fund schools than say young working parents.
- SlowRobotAhead 7y ago
  You're right. That's a good argument for funding schools with sources besides property taxes. That system intentionally subsidizes renters by getting home owners to pay for schools and tasks people who aren't concerned with the funding to make decisions on it. edit: YES, it's a nice plan to just raise rent to cover the school taxes. However, unless you are in a popular market, your rent prices may not bear the increase. Example Northeastern PA has cheap rent because there are so many places available, and thus the $4000/yr in school tax portion of the property tax is not able to be passed on to renters.
  - djrogers 7y ago
    Renters absolutely pay property taxes - just not directly. Every rental unit I’ve ever owned has had the exact same property tax bill as the ones I’ve lived in, and the taxes were paid from the rent collected. If property taxes increased substantially, I’d have had to raise rent...
    - foxx-boxx 7y ago
      Property taxes force homeowners to rent their properties in the first place: in 40 years of not renting your property taxes will confiscate it.
      - lazyasciiart 7y ago
        No they don't.
  - mlyle 7y ago
CapitalistCartr 7y ago
I grew up in an all-white town. All-white schools, all-white neighborhoods, all-white businesses. I would not raise my children like that. I made sure my current area was colorfully diverse before buying.
- lopmotr 7y ago
  While not America, I live in a minority white suburb. I don't want to have a school-age child here because it's, not coincidentally, one of the poorest places in the city and thus is only in zone for the worst schools. Poor people's kids drag down the quality of their schools. So you have to be careful your diversity doesn't overshoot and end up a ghetto.
  - d3ad1ysp0rk 7y ago
    Wish I had seen this blatantly gross reply before replying in good faith above...
kbenson 7y ago
GP could likely have replaced "mostly old white people" with "mostly the same demographic", but it doesn't convey the same information, even if you don't assume implied racism as you did. The important thing being conveyed is lack of diversity, not whiteness. In the United States, saying something is "mostly white people" conveys that other ethnic groups are not present for some reason (whether it be them self-selecting to not participate or because of exclusion). The purpose is almost always to note diversity or lack-thereof, and assume that the person is making a value judgement about the people because their skin is white is to completely miss the point. For example, if you bought a pack of starbust candies, and they were almost all orange, you might note or complain that they were almost all orange. I would do so, and orange is my favorite flavor of those. The issue is, I desire the diversity of colors and flavors, and too much orange is not as good as what the added variation brings. So, "mostly old white people" as a negative doesn't mean old people are bad, or white people are bad, or old white people are bad, but that mostly old white people are not as good as a group that has more variation in it. "Mostly" is the word you should be focusing on, not the other ones.
- klipt 7y ago
  Although if someone visited a suburban area in Japan and complained that it had "mostly old Asian people", they'd probably be called racist.
  - kbenson 7y ago
    I think that depends on the context. If I was visiting that neighborhood in Japan to assess whether I wanted to live there, I think it might not come across as racist as much as similar to how I outlined the prior statement, with some variation because Japan is both a much more homogeneous society, and one where the population as a whole is shifting towards being older on average. I would also argue that a lot of times people are called racist (or called out for saying racist things) these days are likely because people are also less likely to give others the benefit of a doubt for their actions or words. This is likely complicated in that it appears some people that do harbor racist views feel more emboldened to speak them, but I'm not sure how to pick apart how much is one and how much is the other.

davidw 7y ago

> I don't really care about the skin color of my neighbors. That's a nice sentiment, but if you dig a bit, there are probably reasons why his neighborhood is full of "older white people", and there's a good chance that it wasn't a natural process of sorting. Recommended reading: https://amzn.to/2St6rOM https://amzn.to/2St6rOM

brobinson 7y ago
^ undisclosed affiliate link
- davidw 7y ago
  Also a link to a site whose owner makes utter gobs of money if that's of concern to people. I usually get $10 a month or so if I occasionally post a link that I think is highly relevant to a discussion, that I turn around and spend on more books. Happy to buy anyone a beer with the massive amounts of cash I'm raking in.

not_literally 7y ago

You seem to be misinterpreting what they meant by "old white people" to show this forum (and yourself?) how virtuous you are.

SlowRobotAhead 7y ago
No, I just think an educated forum of people that should know better should not engage in willful casual racism just because it's OK to hate on white people. But I know this is an extreme position I have! I personally have the hope that someday old people will be judged not on the color of their skin, but the content of their character. Perhaps if you didn't post your defense from a throwaway I'd think you weren't just trying to justify virtue - that someone of a specific color and age caused all of California's housing problems. Do you want to play the "is it racist if we change the color" game?

sadproton 7y ago

Age is the most mutable characteristic I can possibly imagine.

SlowRobotAhead 7y ago
immuutable: unchanging over time or unable to be changed Well, crap, that's a fair point... But... You can't go backwards and you can't go forwards any faster than anyone else. You can't change it yourself no matter how hard you try (general relativity spaceships aside of course).

JackFr 7y ago

Age is very relevant for schools which are typically paid for with local property taxes. If you somehow find yourself moved to a so-called NORC, naturally occurring retirement community, you'll find that older people people with adult children on limited incomes are more reluctant to fund schools than say young working parents.

SlowRobotAhead 7y ago
You're right. That's a good argument for funding schools with sources besides property taxes. That system intentionally subsidizes renters by getting home owners to pay for schools and tasks people who aren't concerned with the funding to make decisions on it. edit: YES, it's a nice plan to just raise rent to cover the school taxes. However, unless you are in a popular market, your rent prices may not bear the increase. Example Northeastern PA has cheap rent because there are so many places available, and thus the $4000/yr in school tax portion of the property tax is not able to be passed on to renters.
- djrogers 7y ago
  Renters absolutely pay property taxes - just not directly. Every rental unit I’ve ever owned has had the exact same property tax bill as the ones I’ve lived in, and the taxes were paid from the rent collected. If property taxes increased substantially, I’d have had to raise rent...
  - foxx-boxx 7y ago
    Property taxes force homeowners to rent their properties in the first place: in 40 years of not renting your property taxes will confiscate it.
    - lazyasciiart 7y ago
      No they don't.
- mlyle 7y ago

CapitalistCartr 7y ago

I grew up in an all-white town. All-white schools, all-white neighborhoods, all-white businesses. I would not raise my children like that. I made sure my current area was colorfully diverse before buying.

lopmotr 7y ago
While not America, I live in a minority white suburb. I don't want to have a school-age child here because it's, not coincidentally, one of the poorest places in the city and thus is only in zone for the worst schools. Poor people's kids drag down the quality of their schools. So you have to be careful your diversity doesn't overshoot and end up a ghetto.
- d3ad1ysp0rk 7y ago
  Wish I had seen this blatantly gross reply before replying in good faith above...

kbenson 7y ago

GP could likely have replaced "mostly old white people" with "mostly the same demographic", but it doesn't convey the same information, even if you don't assume implied racism as you did. The important thing being conveyed is lack of diversity, not whiteness. In the United States, saying something is "mostly white people" conveys that other ethnic groups are not present for some reason (whether it be them self-selecting to not participate or because of exclusion). The purpose is almost always to note diversity or lack-thereof, and assume that the person is making a value judgement about the people because their skin is white is to completely miss the point. For example, if you bought a pack of starbust candies, and they were almost all orange, you might note or complain that they were almost all orange. I would do so, and orange is my favorite flavor of those. The issue is, I desire the diversity of colors and flavors, and too much orange is not as good as what the added variation brings. So, "mostly old white people" as a negative doesn't mean old people are bad, or white people are bad, or old white people are bad, but that mostly old white people are not as good as a group that has more variation in it. "Mostly" is the word you should be focusing on, not the other ones.

klipt 7y ago
Although if someone visited a suburban area in Japan and complained that it had "mostly old Asian people", they'd probably be called racist.
- kbenson 7y ago
  I think that depends on the context. If I was visiting that neighborhood in Japan to assess whether I wanted to live there, I think it might not come across as racist as much as similar to how I outlined the prior statement, with some variation because Japan is both a much more homogeneous society, and one where the population as a whole is shifting towards being older on average. I would also argue that a lot of times people are called racist (or called out for saying racist things) these days are likely because people are also less likely to give others the benefit of a doubt for their actions or words. This is likely complicated in that it appears some people that do harbor racist views feel more emboldened to speak them, but I'm not sure how to pick apart how much is one and how much is the other.