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I made my own PCBs with a 3D printer

285 points by StavrosK 7y ago

alphabetter 7y ago
It's not unknown for people to hand-draw PCBs with permanent markers in much the way you describe. It's not a new idea, but with 3D printers being common these days, it's nice to remind people of this approach to PCB manufacture. Having made a few PCBs at home, my experience is the etching if the weak link. It's hard to get consistent, high quality traces - particularly if there is any kind of high density layout. With some effort you can to double sided PCBs using this kind of technique, but any kind of through-plating has to be done manually.
- pathartl 7y ago
  I have a very wonder Precision Fidelity C7A tube preamp and it has some very wonderful hand drawn traces: https://www.audioasylumtrader.com/images/y2016/06/156317/IMG_0177.JPG https://www.audioasylumtrader.com/images/y2016/06/156317/IMG... Being from the 90's and only ever seeing CAD-designed PCBs, this blew my mind the first time I took it apart.
  - hinkley 7y ago
    A while back there was a discussion here about how crosstalk in rectilinear traces (I think there’s a term for this but this is how I think of them) are becoming a bit of a problem and that more organic looking lines (not unlike these) can help. Audio people are notorious for detecting noise. That hand drawn circuit might be less artistic and more practical than you’d expect.
    - pathartl 7y ago
      I do remember that article, but what I took away from it is it only really happens when you're working on the small, extremely dense scale.
  - krallja 7y ago
    The 8-Bit Guy repaired a Commodore calculator that had what appeared to be a hand-drawn circuit board as well: https://youtu.be/Q0rSv8NfQXQ?t=65 https://youtu.be/Q0rSv8NfQXQ?t=65
  - DanBC 7y ago
    I designed a couple of small PCBs using crepe tape and etch-resist transfers. Sometimes this was directly onto the copper, but usually it was onto acetate to be used with UV sensitive etch-resist. It was fun, but kind of a pain. Here's a very old (1966, before I was born) article giving instructions for how to do this: http://www.rfcafe.com/references/popular-electronics/etch-printed-circuit-boards-popular-electronics-march-1966.htm http://www.rfcafe.com/references/popular-electronics/etch-pr...
- StavrosK 7y ago
  > It's not a new idea, but with 3D printers being common these days, it's nice to remind people of this approach to PCB manufacture. Sure, but I had neither a 3D printer nor magazines nor an iron, and I didn't really want to get into that whole process, as it sounded like a hassle. Exporting gerbers directly to my 3D printer is trivial enough that I can do it in one minute. > It's hard to get consistent, high quality traces - particularly if there is any kind of high density layout. That is very possible, I still need to refine my etching technique. It's certainly been the hardest part in the ones I made, but that doesn't say much because the rest of the process was trivial. > With some effort you can to double sided PCBs using this kind of technique, but any kind of through-plating has to be done manually. I really want to experiment with that as well, but drilling will be harder. I wonder if it would just be easier to route some traces to the edge and solder them there instead of drilling a via.
krallja 7y ago
How does copper cladding work? That is, how do the manufacturers get copper onto the FR-4?
- skykooler 7y ago
  I believe it's actually done the other way around - the "substrate" is deposited on copper foil.
- lux_scintilla 7y ago
  It is glued down. The fiberglass (FR4) is filled with glue, the back of copper foil is lightly roughed up with an oxidizer and then the materials are laminated together.
armagon 7y ago
Hmm... I thought there were special pens you could use to draw your own circuits. Something like this, perhaps: https://shop.circuitscribe.com/ https://shop.circuitscribe.com/ I think that'd be even cooler, as it would save a step and not involve etching chemicals.
- StavrosK 7y ago
  Oooh, if conductive ink works well, that could be amazing! I need to look into these some more, thanks for the info!
  - 45ure 7y ago
    I have used Circuit Writer and Caikote for fixing lifted traces and remotes etc. I don't know if it will be either feasible or cost-effective, for small to medium projects. Good writeup, by the way! https://caig.com/conductive-compounds-coatings/ https://caig.com/conductive-compounds-coatings/
    - StavrosK 7y ago
      Thanks, and thank you! These are a bit expensive, but I usually only need one or two PCBs, so it might work. I'll give them a shot, thanks again!
- teraflop 7y ago
  Yeah, I'd be really interested in hearing how well those conductive inks work when used for a complete project. Based on what Circuitscribe's website says, their ink has about 100x the resistance of a standard 1oz copper PCB (for the same length and width), so I can imagine that you would have to be extra careful about how you route your power traces and position your decoupling capacitors.
kazinator 7y ago
I've achieved good results with just a laser printer. (Print mirror image onto glossy magazine paper, transfer toner to copper with clothing iron, wash paper away with water, etch, drill.) https://i.imgur.com/JtMQemK.jpg https://i.imgur.com/JtMQemK.jpg https://i.imgur.com/2olwewD.png https://i.imgur.com/2olwewD.png I have used markers for touching up toner-transfer boards (not that one). I found that markers do not resist the etching solution as well as toner. Toner provides a higher build of plastic resin material on the surface than the trail left by a marker. (Perhaps doing multiple coats with the marker could build it up.) I would also highly recommend doing "copper pours" as I did with the above board. Etch away as little copper as possible. The etch will be efficient and fast. The circuit board in my above images was etched inside a tiny container, in minutes! In fact, the "etching tank" I used was a plastic bottle cap from a 1.9 liter V-8 juice. If you etch away most of the copper and insist on getting those large, etched areas very clean, that may take so much etching that it will eat into the traces that you want to keep, leaving them in rough shape, and maybe even nonworking. The resist only protects the copper from the top. The sides of every trace are exposed. Leave it in the solution long enough and the etchant will work its way under the resist and etch them away. Of course, copper pours require large black areas, which probably doesn't translate to good economics if you're using markers. A mixed approach might be possible: do smaller copper pours in the the nooks and corners around the traces and pads, and cover large areas with rectangular pieces of electrical tape.
- StavrosK 7y ago
  You're basically spot on, I had all these problems that you mention. I didn't think of adding planes (I actually had them but removed them) because I didn't want the printer to spend an eternity drawing, but after you mentioned it, it makes sense that it's definitely worth it. That's what I'll be doing from now on, thank you!
- Zardoz84 7y ago
  My father (and my self did a few) made a lot of prototype PCB with the toner technique. A trick that I learned from him, was giving a coat of tin alloy to fix any micro cut made by defects on the copper or the toner transfer.
pjbk 7y ago
Don't use a marker. I use 2-3 layers of TPU filament or Ninjaflex over copper treated with washable adhesive. Works wonderfully. As always, clean the copper very well with isopropyl before anything. You can also do flex PCBs this way: - https://www.instructables.com/id/Make-Flexible-Circuit-Boards-Using-A-3D-Printer https://www.instructables.com/id/Make-Flexible-Circuit-Board...
- xenomachina 7y ago
  Nice! My first thought when I saw this post was that extruded filament of some sort would probably be more precise, and easier to set up. Why TPU or Ninjaflex? Does that make it easier to eventually remove the mask? Or is it that other materials would break down in the etchant?
  - pjbk 7y ago
    Adherence. Normal PLA/ABS or other plastic filaments will shrink when they cool down, and cause the thin layer of material to pull and separate from the copper. TPU is rubber-like and will have less inner stress to pull the material off. Also PLA absorbs humidity and will tend to change volume in a solution, with the same propensity to separate from the copper during the etching. TPU has more impermeability. I have also tried using adhesion glues and hair sprays. Sometimes a thin application of hair spray (removed with a quick spray of isopropyl before the etching) helps a bit to define the edge traces. However I found that cleaning the copper very well, having a clean chamber in the printer and controlling well the etching temperature to reduce the etching time has the same effect and is less burdensome.
    - penagwin 7y ago
      Have you tried PETG? I know loves to adhere to glass (if rather aggressively) - maybe it'd work here too? It'd be cool if it does because PETG is a lot easier to print because of its rigidity (especially in bowden drives)
      - pjbk 7y ago
cronix 7y ago
Why not attach a Dremel with some routing bits instead of the pen and route it?
- kazinator 7y ago
  Plus, if you fill all the empty areas with copper pours (see my other comment), there isn't that much copper to route away!
- StavrosK 7y ago
  The printer doesn't have enough torque to dremel things, and fiberglass dust would make a toxic mess in the flat.
- throwanem 7y ago
  Two problems. First, it's going to be hard to get any kind of rigidity without heavy clamping that may damage the printer head. Second, the mechanism isn't designed to drive that kind of load. So you're unlikely to get usable results, and you are likely to destroy the 3D printer while you're trying. If you really want to do that kind of work, you'd be better off with something like a CNC-equipped Proxxon micromill. But that's several thousand dollars' worth of investment for a tool that's honestly not good for much beyond what you're already doing with it - those things are tiny, so unless you're making intricate model parts or something like that, you're going to have a hard time finding uses for it that don't run up against the physical limits of what it can handle. And, after all, we're only talking here about removing a thou or two of material that can be oxidized away just fine. Not that machining isn't an absolute joy, but a chemical process makes a lot more sense here.
  - cronix 7y ago
    I use a lulzbot Taz and the toolheads are easy to swap out. I've seen a dremel tool holder for it on thingaverse, so that would take care of the weight and rigidity since it would be on its own mount instead of mounted to the actual extruder. What do you mean by "drive that kind of load"? Are you talking about the weight, or pulling the dremel through the material to cut it (resistance)? If the latter, it seems that just going slow with the steppers and a high speed on the dremel would eliminate that? Other people have converted their 3d printers to CNC machines. I'm not sure why this wouldn't be possible with a little effort. It seems cleaner/safer than dealing with chemicals? https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:1053303 https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:1053303
lstodd 7y ago
It's fun to turn a 3d-printer into a plotter, but alas only for simple stuff. A given-away laser printer (that is, $0) and $25 laminator deliver 15 mil / 0.4 mm traces easily and consistently. I very much doubt any pen can do that, even with proper mount - the rubber band will just ruin any accuracy and consistency, and even if the pen is hard fixed, the tip will still wobble, plus always imperfect levelling will mess with the track width.
- StavrosK 7y ago
  This is true, that's why v2 of my mount uses a zip tie! That one works much better, and I don't really need 0.4mm traces for the quick PCBs I need. If I need tighter tolerances, I can make the PCB this way, see that it works, change the tolerance and send it to a fab. How do you use the laminator with the printer?
  - lstodd 7y ago
    1. Preheat the PCB with common iron. 2. Apply the paper to the heated PCB 3. Pass the sandwich through the laminator several times. This ensures that the temperature and pressure are uniform across the entire PCB and toner is never smeared.
- djmips 7y ago
  A laser printer isn't exactly free. You might be able to find one cheaply or free but you still have to pay for toner.
  - lstodd 7y ago
    Literally free on local equivalents of Craiglist. If the toner gets low or photodrum dies, I just get another one.
tomstokes 7y ago
I love seeing DIY PCB manufacturing projects like this. Using the 3D printer as a plotter is a creative take on the traditional DIY process. For any aspiring EE hobbyists: Manufacturing your own PCBs is almost never worth the effort. You'll spend days or weeks getting the process and tooling right, and you still have to manually wire any vias that connect the front and back sides of the PCB. These DIY PCB manufacturing projects are fun if you're in it for the experience, but very impractical for getting work done. It's quick and easy to order small quantity PCBs online. OSH Park is a popular option: https://oshpark.com/#services https://oshpark.com/#services You can get 3 boards in 9-12 days for $5/square inch. If you need the boards sooner, $10/square inch will get you a 4-5 day turnaround time. You won't save any money by buying all of the gear to DIY etch your boards, and you certainly won't save any time.
- StavrosK 7y ago
  I disagree that it won't save time, if just for the fact that 30 minutes is less than 9-12 days. I usually need neither the quality nor the quantity that these fabs will give me, so being able to quickly make a PCB is definitely worth it for me.
  - wpietri 7y ago
    That makes a lot of sense to me. One of the reasons I stick mostly with software is that it allows for much quicker iteration. That increases both my ability to explore a space (when working divergently) and polish a product (when I'm in convergence mode). Hardware is, well, hard. Iteration speed can make a huge difference in outcome. I read that the average consumer electronics company goes through 3-7 physical product iterations. Apple, on the other hand, went through more than 100 generations of prototype for the first iPod. Obviously what you've done here is just getting started, but it points in a really interesting direction. A 3D printer with swappable heads for plotting and an add-on PCB etching kit should definitely have a market. That would mean recurring revenue for PCB supplies at a good margin, too.
    - tomstokes 7y ago
throwanem 7y ago
You asked about safety. Sodium persulfate isn't that risky [1]; your main concern is respiratory, so keeping the temperature low is a good intuition. If you decide to work with higher heat to accelerate the etch, wear breathing protection. Sodium persulfate is a strong oxidizer, which is what makes it an effective etchant, but that also makes it a fire risk. In storage, keep it cool and dry; silica gel moisture scavenger packets probably aren't a bad idea. And, of course, keep it away from anything flammable. Finally, it's a good idea not to dispose of the used etchant solution down a drain. Check with your municipality to find a safe disposal method, rather than add it to the ecosystem where it will poison wildlife. [1] https://www.fishersci.com/store/msds?partNumber=O61141&productDescription=SODIUM+PERSULFATE+CERT+1KG&vendorId=VN00033897&countryCode=US&language=en https://www.fishersci.com/store/msds?partNumber=O61141&produ...
- StavrosK 7y ago
  Thanks for this! Would it be okay to etch with the container lid on? That would take care of fumes even at slightly higher temperatures, but I don't know whether it'll cause some other problem.
  - throwanem 7y ago
    I'd hesitate to try that. You'd be making a pressure vessel, and while this doesn't seem a tremendously energetic process, it will become more so with increased temperature. Having a small explosion in your flat probably isn't a good time, either! If it were me, instead of a sealed container I'd just run the process under an open window with a fan propped in it to exhaust whatever fumes develop, and maybe under an improvised fume hood made of a cut-open garbage bag and masking tape. (If you do that, make sure to leave space at the bottom for intake air. The idea is to make a funnel that will pull room air in, mix it with process gas, and exhaust the lot outside instead of into your living space.) The window-and-fan method worked well when using vinegar-based iron acetate stain, and later polyurethane sealant, on a quite large table I made back when I lived in a tiny apartment; for a low-volume process like this, it'll probably do just fine, I'd think.
    - 7y ago
convolvatron 7y ago
another idea that's on my list...apply a ground (as in classic copper plate etching). use a scribe to remove the negative and etch. my hope is that it will produce higher precision than a felt-tip for small pitch components but I still haven't gotten over the activation energy of getting kicad output into gcode for the dirt cheap grbl machine I got
- StavrosK 7y ago
  Can't you just use my code? It should work well.
madengr 7y ago
Back in the 20th century, we did this with flat-bed pen plotters. Ink makes lousy resist anyway. Much better results using old fashioned transparency and photo resist.
- StavrosK 7y ago
  It wasn't too bad, as you can see from the photos. I think the problem was that I left it way too long in the etchant because I didn't have a copper plane, but I will try with one next time.
gswdh 7y ago
Is there any real value in PCBs like these these days? 2 layers from China can be fast and is very cheap. You can’t do anything complicated on these single layer DIY boards, they also carry the risk of defects potentially causing a lot of frustration.
- NikkiA 7y ago
  There is mild value to photo-resist processing DIY, 2-sided is easy and it's a lot quicker than waiting for a shipment from china. But 3d printing, CNC routing, all those methods are an order of magnitude coarser production and not suitable for anything except very simple projects, and veroboard/stripboard is about on-par signal integrity wise.
- pixelface 7y ago
  one niche where i'd argue it's not only valuable but also period correct is restoring and modifying vintage electronics. Frequently they are single sided through hole boards that were not born from a CAD program, and are not available for purchase. You can certainly make the new board with CAD and a fab house, but for things like vintage synthesizers a hand etched board may actually be more appropriate and original. Also the importance of latency in some cases is significant. When the goal is to iterate a board quickly several times and a diy board is good enough, being able to have a board in an hour or less could mean multiple board iterations in one day where sending out to fab might draw out each board iteration to a week long wait.
  - krallja 7y ago
    Do people still do wire-wrap prototyping? Strong enough for (tiny-scale) production, yet no chemicals, soldering, or drilling required.
prashnts 7y ago
Nice! I tried doing this a few years ago with a RepRap build. It didn't go well! Bad marker, pigment that dissolved, not enough ink layers, but the most interesting one was with Staedtler markers which sorta dissolve previously laid down ink when I made multiple passes. Ended up doing toner transfer after giving up. I wonder how would a thin plastic film cut with one of those vinyl sticker cutters would fare for masking.
- StavrosK 7y ago
  Oh huh, I'm using an Edding 140S, in case it matters. It was what they gave me when I asked for a permanent marker, and it worked beautifully. Didn't dissolve at all in the etchant, yet wipes right off with some alcohol.
  - prashnts 7y ago
    No doubt, I had no idea which marker to use. Thanks for the suggestion, I want to give it another go since toner transfer is often a hit/miss.
    - StavrosK 7y ago
      No problem, give it a shot, it worked really really well in my tests, and very easily.
      - armitron 7y ago
        I wouldn't describe the results you show in the photos as "worked really really well". The traces are uneven and full of holes and discontinuities. To me that's completely unacceptable. I'd throw them in the garbage but I guess I'm too OCD and obsessed about quality to work with hand-etched PCBs.
        StavrosK 7y ago
        To me, the circuit did its job, so it worked really well.
jpindar 7y ago
This is not what I was hoping for (literally printing the traces).
- falcolas 7y ago
  Given that there are wood and metal filaments, it may be possible (the flip side being the filaments are still only around 70% wood/metal, and are hard on extruders).
- StavrosK 7y ago
  It shouldn't be too hard to print the traces, I just didn't try it. I don't know how well the plastic would adhere.
  - pjbk 7y ago
    As I stated above, use TPU or Ninjaflex filament. It adheres very well to a clean copper surface. Start etching immediately after printing.
    - StavrosK 7y ago
      You also mentioned an adhesive, what's that for? Also, how do you find it better than the marker method?
      - pjbk 7y ago
        It will prevent the plastic layers from detaching too easily. Specially if you do the etching in a warm bath. If you do it right, the finish is far superior than using a marker, in particular edge traces that turn out very well defined. That means it's easier to do fine pitch SMD pads, for example. Through the years I have done many PCBs using different methods: Sharpie markers, Posca pens, inkjet and laser printing, transfers of different materials, etc. Except perhaps for pro laser etching or routing, nothing beats photomasks. In my experience the quality I get with 3D filament compares to a DIY routing table, so if you have a 3D printer and don't mind chemical etching, you don't need one.
qaute 7y ago
There are other ways to make PCBs with a 3D printer: Instead of etching copper, some people directly print the circuitry with a solder extruder [1]. The idea's been around for a while [2] but circuit complexity is usually very limited. Here's a guide [3] (to a similar method) that uses a hobbyist 3D printer. To improve on the article's pen-masking method, you can mount a laser instead of a pen to the 3D printer and expose a specially coated PCB [4]. Or expose UV light through an LCD [5]. One can also just mount a milling tool to the printer and cut away the copper directly [6]. A 3D printer's not designed to take the forces from milling well, so similar but specially designed machines are made [7]. The most impressive methods are geared toward industry: A cutting-edge industry-grade electronics 3D printer looks like [8]: an inkjet-style printer with conductive and insulating (dielectric) inks. Somewhat related, you can use a laser etching and electroplating process ("3D Moulded Interconnect Devices" "3D MID") to make PCBs on 3D printed weirdly shaped (i.e., definitely not flat) surfaces. [9] is an impressive example, and definitely check out a search engine's image results [10]. [1] http://diy3dprinting.blogspot.com/2015/01/voxel8-conductive-ink-embedded.html http://diy3dprinting.blogspot.com/2015/01/voxel8-conductive-... [2] http://blog.reprap.org/2009/04/first-reprapped-circuit.html http://blog.reprap.org/2009/04/first-reprapped-circuit.html [3] https://www.instructables.com/id/3D-Printing-3D-Print-A-Solderless-Circuit-Board/ https://www.instructables.com/id/3D-Printing-3D-Print-A-Sold... [4] https://dangerouspayload.com/2017/12/17/pcb-uv-exposure-scanner/ https://dangerouspayload.com/2017/12/17/pcb-uv-exposure-scan... [5] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vxl7glJMKOQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vxl7glJMKOQ [6] https://www.instructables.com/id/PCB-Milling-Using-a-3D-Printer/ https://www.instructables.com/id/PCB-Milling-Using-a-3D-Prin... [7] https://www.bantamtools.com/pcb-milling-machine https://www.bantamtools.com/pcb-milling-machine [8] https://www.nano-di.com/dragonfly-pro-3d-printer https://www.nano-di.com/dragonfly-pro-3d-printer [9] https://www.festo.com/group/en/cms/10157.htm https://www.festo.com/group/en/cms/10157.htm [10] https://duckduckgo.com/?q=3d+moulded+interconnect+devices&t=ffab&iax=images&ia=images https://duckduckgo.com/?q=3d+moulded+interconnect+devices&t=...
jgamman 7y ago
Note to chemists: PCB is a printed circuit board not a polychlorinated biphenyl. i know i came for the wonder of atomic scale printers but still, printing circuits is cool too.
osrec 7y ago
Rather than using an etching solution, could you just use a Dremel style attachment to shave off the copper from the board to "reveal" your PCB design?
- ur-whale 7y ago
  There's tons of videos and web sites on the net describing this, usually with tiny and cheap CNC machines. It works very well, and there's no need to use nasty chemicals anywhere in the process.
  - JshWright 7y ago
    > and there's no need to use nasty chemicals anywhere in the process. Yeah, instead you get lots of microscopic airborne fiberglass strands (a known carcinogen). Yay....?
- waiseristy 7y ago
  That's another possibility. I don't think you can get as good of a resolution though. Also dremels are loud as hell
poseid 7y ago
simple and beautiful!
beeforpork 7y ago
OK, I am puzzled: 2D printing is a dark art, but 3D printing is not? And comparing this to Chinese PCB manufacturing services is weird, too. If you want double sided, with vias, down to tiny traces, with plating and solder-stop and text, then you may be willing to pay the shipment and wait a few days. Yes, I admit that this is a fun method. But what is the advantage over laser printing and then, say, using UV light to transfer to a photo PCB? Honestly, I do not get why laser printers are a dark art, please explain!
- bob1029 7y ago
  I came here with the same question. I can see how the laser printer approach might have its own difficulties, but from a layman's perspective this seems like the most accessible & reproducible path.
  - hwillis 7y ago
    It's very much an art. Gotta have the right paper, printer, and temperature application, and there's no good way to know until you have a feel for it. Plus finding a laser printer is a hassle now.
    - jacquesm 7y ago
      > Plus finding a laser printer is a hassle now. Huh? Aren't they a complete commodity? $250 will get you a half decent one.
      - StavrosK 7y ago
        I don't know about everyone else, because what you're saying seems to be a common sentiment and multiple people here mention "just" getting a $200+ piece of equipment, but neither the $200 nor finding the space to put the printer on is worth it to me for the ~1 PCB per year I want to make (and ~0 pages I want to print). At most, I might go to a printing place and ask them to print a page, but my 3D printer is right there and this saves me a trip.
ur-whale 7y ago
This does not solve what (to me) is the main problem how DYI PCB making: the chemical step. For me, that is the number one things that needs to be solved: using nasty chemicals to etch copper away. Not drawing on the copper. That's easy (and there's a million ways to do it).
- djmips 7y ago
  If you're patient you can use vinegar, hydrogen peroxide, and salt. You still create a copper salt that you need to dispose of properly. http://quinndunki.com/blondihacks/?p=835 http://quinndunki.com/blondihacks/?p=835
- StavrosK 7y ago
  Etching the small PCBs I created took a minimal amount of chemicals in the cut bottom of a water bottle. It's not nothing, but it wasn't a big problem.
  - ur-whale 7y ago
    How did you get rid of the byproducts ?
ur-whale 7y ago
Just get yourself a tiny CNC machine from banggood and then do this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ak0IJUMBFg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ak0IJUMBFg No chemicals involved, no hacking a machine that wasn't designed for the task.
- JshWright 7y ago
  No _liquid_ chemicals... Airborne fiberglass threads are a lot more dangerous.
salamanderman 7y ago
Taking a guess at the issue the pcb2gcode author is dealing with, they probably are trying to solve the same problems as this patent: https://patents.google.com/patent/US10061301B2 https://patents.google.com/patent/US10061301B2
itronitron 7y ago
You can also use a Circuit Scribe pen [0] to draw the circuits directly without the messy step of acid etching the plate. Related [1]. 0. https://www.circuitscribe.com/ https://www.circuitscribe.com/ 1. https://chibitronics.com/sailboat-card/ https://chibitronics.com/sailboat-card/
- jstanley 7y ago
  I couldn't tell from their website: can you solder to this stuff? If so, it sounds incredibly promising, but if not, then I'm struggling to see how you use this to connect standard components together.
  - itronitron 7y ago
    Good point, the 'ink' is silver but there is no mention of whether it can be successfully soldered. I wonder if the ink lines can at least aid the flow of solder.
fest 7y ago
Another way to step up the resolution a notch is using photoresist coated PCB and a small UV laser. It is typically a negative process (exposed photoresist dissolves in developer solution), so you'd have to invert your plot/gcode, there are two extra steps (developing the exposed photoresist so it dissolves and dissolving the remaining photoresist after etching in acetone bath). However, that brings you closer to being able to prototype a PCB for something with 0.5mm pitch.
Jemm 7y ago
I used my 3D printer with a sharpie rubber banded to the carriage to draw labels on CDs for a friends band. Worked very well. Can’t remember the exact software in used but it was a script that converted a png to gcode.
kragen 7y ago
Homo Faciens made a page about the mechanical side of this process last year: https://homofaciens.de/technics-machines-3D-printer-Zonestar-Printer_en.htm https://homofaciens.de/technics-machines-3D-printer-Zonestar...
yezr 7y ago
lol and how can you not enjoy the surprise ending!
mighty_atomic_c 7y ago
I've had some success converting an old printer to do pen plotting, but I haven't tried PCB manufacture yet because Sharpie marker does not do a sufficient, reliable job at working as a mask. I haven't been able to even use it to touch up my own projects! My experience is mostly with warmed Ferric Chloride as the etchant, so perhaps ymmv with other etchants. However, in my case, glossy photo paper + laserjet transferred with clothes or hair iron (a tedious and awful process) works well, but Sharpie has not been able to help me touching up any areas damaged by the transfer. If anyone else has a better mask suggestion than Sharpie, I could try out that sort of thing instead.
- StavrosK 7y ago
  I used an edding marker (I mention the model in another comment) that worked excellently.

285 points by StavrosK 7y ago

It's not unknown for people to hand-draw PCBs with permanent markers in much the way you describe. It's not a new idea, but with 3D printers being common these days, it's nice to remind people of this approach to PCB manufacture. Having made a few PCBs at home, my experience is the etching if the weak link. It's hard to get consistent, high quality traces - particularly if there is any kind of high density layout. With some effort you can to double sided PCBs using this kind of technique, but any kind of through-plating has to be done manually.

pathartl 7y ago
I have a very wonder Precision Fidelity C7A tube preamp and it has some very wonderful hand drawn traces: https://www.audioasylumtrader.com/images/y2016/06/156317/IMG_0177.JPG https://www.audioasylumtrader.com/images/y2016/06/156317/IMG... Being from the 90's and only ever seeing CAD-designed PCBs, this blew my mind the first time I took it apart.
- hinkley 7y ago
  A while back there was a discussion here about how crosstalk in rectilinear traces (I think there’s a term for this but this is how I think of them) are becoming a bit of a problem and that more organic looking lines (not unlike these) can help. Audio people are notorious for detecting noise. That hand drawn circuit might be less artistic and more practical than you’d expect.
  - pathartl 7y ago
    I do remember that article, but what I took away from it is it only really happens when you're working on the small, extremely dense scale.
- krallja 7y ago
  The 8-Bit Guy repaired a Commodore calculator that had what appeared to be a hand-drawn circuit board as well: https://youtu.be/Q0rSv8NfQXQ?t=65 https://youtu.be/Q0rSv8NfQXQ?t=65
- DanBC 7y ago
  I designed a couple of small PCBs using crepe tape and etch-resist transfers. Sometimes this was directly onto the copper, but usually it was onto acetate to be used with UV sensitive etch-resist. It was fun, but kind of a pain. Here's a very old (1966, before I was born) article giving instructions for how to do this: http://www.rfcafe.com/references/popular-electronics/etch-printed-circuit-boards-popular-electronics-march-1966.htm http://www.rfcafe.com/references/popular-electronics/etch-pr...
StavrosK 7y ago
> It's not a new idea, but with 3D printers being common these days, it's nice to remind people of this approach to PCB manufacture. Sure, but I had neither a 3D printer nor magazines nor an iron, and I didn't really want to get into that whole process, as it sounded like a hassle. Exporting gerbers directly to my 3D printer is trivial enough that I can do it in one minute. > It's hard to get consistent, high quality traces - particularly if there is any kind of high density layout. That is very possible, I still need to refine my etching technique. It's certainly been the hardest part in the ones I made, but that doesn't say much because the rest of the process was trivial. > With some effort you can to double sided PCBs using this kind of technique, but any kind of through-plating has to be done manually. I really want to experiment with that as well, but drilling will be harder. I wonder if it would just be easier to route some traces to the edge and solder them there instead of drilling a via.

krallja 7y ago

How does copper cladding work? That is, how do the manufacturers get copper onto the FR-4?

skykooler 7y ago
I believe it's actually done the other way around - the "substrate" is deposited on copper foil.
lux_scintilla 7y ago
It is glued down. The fiberglass (FR4) is filled with glue, the back of copper foil is lightly roughed up with an oxidizer and then the materials are laminated together.

armagon 7y ago

Hmm... I thought there were special pens you could use to draw your own circuits. Something like this, perhaps: https://shop.circuitscribe.com/ https://shop.circuitscribe.com/ I think that'd be even cooler, as it would save a step and not involve etching chemicals.

StavrosK 7y ago
Oooh, if conductive ink works well, that could be amazing! I need to look into these some more, thanks for the info!
- 45ure 7y ago
  I have used Circuit Writer and Caikote for fixing lifted traces and remotes etc. I don't know if it will be either feasible or cost-effective, for small to medium projects. Good writeup, by the way! https://caig.com/conductive-compounds-coatings/ https://caig.com/conductive-compounds-coatings/
  - StavrosK 7y ago
    Thanks, and thank you! These are a bit expensive, but I usually only need one or two PCBs, so it might work. I'll give them a shot, thanks again!
teraflop 7y ago
Yeah, I'd be really interested in hearing how well those conductive inks work when used for a complete project. Based on what Circuitscribe's website says, their ink has about 100x the resistance of a standard 1oz copper PCB (for the same length and width), so I can imagine that you would have to be extra careful about how you route your power traces and position your decoupling capacitors.

kazinator 7y ago

I've achieved good results with just a laser printer. (Print mirror image onto glossy magazine paper, transfer toner to copper with clothing iron, wash paper away with water, etch, drill.) https://i.imgur.com/JtMQemK.jpg https://i.imgur.com/JtMQemK.jpg https://i.imgur.com/2olwewD.png https://i.imgur.com/2olwewD.png I have used markers for touching up toner-transfer boards (not that one). I found that markers do not resist the etching solution as well as toner. Toner provides a higher build of plastic resin material on the surface than the trail left by a marker. (Perhaps doing multiple coats with the marker could build it up.) I would also highly recommend doing "copper pours" as I did with the above board. Etch away as little copper as possible. The etch will be efficient and fast. The circuit board in my above images was etched inside a tiny container, in minutes! In fact, the "etching tank" I used was a plastic bottle cap from a 1.9 liter V-8 juice. If you etch away most of the copper and insist on getting those large, etched areas very clean, that may take so much etching that it will eat into the traces that you want to keep, leaving them in rough shape, and maybe even nonworking. The resist only protects the copper from the top. The sides of every trace are exposed. Leave it in the solution long enough and the etchant will work its way under the resist and etch them away. Of course, copper pours require large black areas, which probably doesn't translate to good economics if you're using markers. A mixed approach might be possible: do smaller copper pours in the the nooks and corners around the traces and pads, and cover large areas with rectangular pieces of electrical tape.

StavrosK 7y ago
You're basically spot on, I had all these problems that you mention. I didn't think of adding planes (I actually had them but removed them) because I didn't want the printer to spend an eternity drawing, but after you mentioned it, it makes sense that it's definitely worth it. That's what I'll be doing from now on, thank you!
Zardoz84 7y ago
My father (and my self did a few) made a lot of prototype PCB with the toner technique. A trick that I learned from him, was giving a coat of tin alloy to fix any micro cut made by defects on the copper or the toner transfer.

pjbk 7y ago

Don't use a marker. I use 2-3 layers of TPU filament or Ninjaflex over copper treated with washable adhesive. Works wonderfully. As always, clean the copper very well with isopropyl before anything. You can also do flex PCBs this way: - https://www.instructables.com/id/Make-Flexible-Circuit-Boards-Using-A-3D-Printer https://www.instructables.com/id/Make-Flexible-Circuit-Board...

xenomachina 7y ago
Nice! My first thought when I saw this post was that extruded filament of some sort would probably be more precise, and easier to set up. Why TPU or Ninjaflex? Does that make it easier to eventually remove the mask? Or is it that other materials would break down in the etchant?
- pjbk 7y ago
  Adherence. Normal PLA/ABS or other plastic filaments will shrink when they cool down, and cause the thin layer of material to pull and separate from the copper. TPU is rubber-like and will have less inner stress to pull the material off. Also PLA absorbs humidity and will tend to change volume in a solution, with the same propensity to separate from the copper during the etching. TPU has more impermeability. I have also tried using adhesion glues and hair sprays. Sometimes a thin application of hair spray (removed with a quick spray of isopropyl before the etching) helps a bit to define the edge traces. However I found that cleaning the copper very well, having a clean chamber in the printer and controlling well the etching temperature to reduce the etching time has the same effect and is less burdensome.
  - penagwin 7y ago
    Have you tried PETG? I know loves to adhere to glass (if rather aggressively) - maybe it'd work here too? It'd be cool if it does because PETG is a lot easier to print because of its rigidity (especially in bowden drives)
    - pjbk 7y ago

cronix 7y ago

Why not attach a Dremel with some routing bits instead of the pen and route it?

kazinator 7y ago
Plus, if you fill all the empty areas with copper pours (see my other comment), there isn't that much copper to route away!
StavrosK 7y ago
The printer doesn't have enough torque to dremel things, and fiberglass dust would make a toxic mess in the flat.
throwanem 7y ago
Two problems. First, it's going to be hard to get any kind of rigidity without heavy clamping that may damage the printer head. Second, the mechanism isn't designed to drive that kind of load. So you're unlikely to get usable results, and you are likely to destroy the 3D printer while you're trying. If you really want to do that kind of work, you'd be better off with something like a CNC-equipped Proxxon micromill. But that's several thousand dollars' worth of investment for a tool that's honestly not good for much beyond what you're already doing with it - those things are tiny, so unless you're making intricate model parts or something like that, you're going to have a hard time finding uses for it that don't run up against the physical limits of what it can handle. And, after all, we're only talking here about removing a thou or two of material that can be oxidized away just fine. Not that machining isn't an absolute joy, but a chemical process makes a lot more sense here.
- cronix 7y ago
  I use a lulzbot Taz and the toolheads are easy to swap out. I've seen a dremel tool holder for it on thingaverse, so that would take care of the weight and rigidity since it would be on its own mount instead of mounted to the actual extruder. What do you mean by "drive that kind of load"? Are you talking about the weight, or pulling the dremel through the material to cut it (resistance)? If the latter, it seems that just going slow with the steppers and a high speed on the dremel would eliminate that? Other people have converted their 3d printers to CNC machines. I'm not sure why this wouldn't be possible with a little effort. It seems cleaner/safer than dealing with chemicals? https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:1053303 https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:1053303

lstodd 7y ago

It's fun to turn a 3d-printer into a plotter, but alas only for simple stuff. A given-away laser printer (that is, $0) and $25 laminator deliver 15 mil / 0.4 mm traces easily and consistently. I very much doubt any pen can do that, even with proper mount - the rubber band will just ruin any accuracy and consistency, and even if the pen is hard fixed, the tip will still wobble, plus always imperfect levelling will mess with the track width.

StavrosK 7y ago
This is true, that's why v2 of my mount uses a zip tie! That one works much better, and I don't really need 0.4mm traces for the quick PCBs I need. If I need tighter tolerances, I can make the PCB this way, see that it works, change the tolerance and send it to a fab. How do you use the laminator with the printer?
- lstodd 7y ago
  1. Preheat the PCB with common iron. 2. Apply the paper to the heated PCB 3. Pass the sandwich through the laminator several times. This ensures that the temperature and pressure are uniform across the entire PCB and toner is never smeared.
djmips 7y ago
A laser printer isn't exactly free. You might be able to find one cheaply or free but you still have to pay for toner.
- lstodd 7y ago
  Literally free on local equivalents of Craiglist. If the toner gets low or photodrum dies, I just get another one.

tomstokes 7y ago

I love seeing DIY PCB manufacturing projects like this. Using the 3D printer as a plotter is a creative take on the traditional DIY process. For any aspiring EE hobbyists: Manufacturing your own PCBs is almost never worth the effort. You'll spend days or weeks getting the process and tooling right, and you still have to manually wire any vias that connect the front and back sides of the PCB. These DIY PCB manufacturing projects are fun if you're in it for the experience, but very impractical for getting work done. It's quick and easy to order small quantity PCBs online. OSH Park is a popular option: https://oshpark.com/#services https://oshpark.com/#services You can get 3 boards in 9-12 days for $5/square inch. If you need the boards sooner, $10/square inch will get you a 4-5 day turnaround time. You won't save any money by buying all of the gear to DIY etch your boards, and you certainly won't save any time.

StavrosK 7y ago
I disagree that it won't save time, if just for the fact that 30 minutes is less than 9-12 days. I usually need neither the quality nor the quantity that these fabs will give me, so being able to quickly make a PCB is definitely worth it for me.
- wpietri 7y ago
  That makes a lot of sense to me. One of the reasons I stick mostly with software is that it allows for much quicker iteration. That increases both my ability to explore a space (when working divergently) and polish a product (when I'm in convergence mode). Hardware is, well, hard. Iteration speed can make a huge difference in outcome. I read that the average consumer electronics company goes through 3-7 physical product iterations. Apple, on the other hand, went through more than 100 generations of prototype for the first iPod. Obviously what you've done here is just getting started, but it points in a really interesting direction. A 3D printer with swappable heads for plotting and an add-on PCB etching kit should definitely have a market. That would mean recurring revenue for PCB supplies at a good margin, too.
  - tomstokes 7y ago

throwanem 7y ago

You asked about safety. Sodium persulfate isn't that risky [1]; your main concern is respiratory, so keeping the temperature low is a good intuition. If you decide to work with higher heat to accelerate the etch, wear breathing protection. Sodium persulfate is a strong oxidizer, which is what makes it an effective etchant, but that also makes it a fire risk. In storage, keep it cool and dry; silica gel moisture scavenger packets probably aren't a bad idea. And, of course, keep it away from anything flammable. Finally, it's a good idea not to dispose of the used etchant solution down a drain. Check with your municipality to find a safe disposal method, rather than add it to the ecosystem where it will poison wildlife. [1] https://www.fishersci.com/store/msds?partNumber=O61141&productDescription=SODIUM+PERSULFATE+CERT+1KG&vendorId=VN00033897&countryCode=US&language=en https://www.fishersci.com/store/msds?partNumber=O61141&produ...

StavrosK 7y ago
Thanks for this! Would it be okay to etch with the container lid on? That would take care of fumes even at slightly higher temperatures, but I don't know whether it'll cause some other problem.
- throwanem 7y ago
  I'd hesitate to try that. You'd be making a pressure vessel, and while this doesn't seem a tremendously energetic process, it will become more so with increased temperature. Having a small explosion in your flat probably isn't a good time, either! If it were me, instead of a sealed container I'd just run the process under an open window with a fan propped in it to exhaust whatever fumes develop, and maybe under an improvised fume hood made of a cut-open garbage bag and masking tape. (If you do that, make sure to leave space at the bottom for intake air. The idea is to make a funnel that will pull room air in, mix it with process gas, and exhaust the lot outside instead of into your living space.) The window-and-fan method worked well when using vinegar-based iron acetate stain, and later polyurethane sealant, on a quite large table I made back when I lived in a tiny apartment; for a low-volume process like this, it'll probably do just fine, I'd think.
  - 7y ago

convolvatron 7y ago

another idea that's on my list...apply a ground (as in classic copper plate etching). use a scribe to remove the negative and etch. my hope is that it will produce higher precision than a felt-tip for small pitch components but I still haven't gotten over the activation energy of getting kicad output into gcode for the dirt cheap grbl machine I got

StavrosK 7y ago
Can't you just use my code? It should work well.

madengr 7y ago

Back in the 20th century, we did this with flat-bed pen plotters. Ink makes lousy resist anyway. Much better results using old fashioned transparency and photo resist.

StavrosK 7y ago
It wasn't too bad, as you can see from the photos. I think the problem was that I left it way too long in the etchant because I didn't have a copper plane, but I will try with one next time.

gswdh 7y ago

Is there any real value in PCBs like these these days? 2 layers from China can be fast and is very cheap. You can’t do anything complicated on these single layer DIY boards, they also carry the risk of defects potentially causing a lot of frustration.

NikkiA 7y ago
There is mild value to photo-resist processing DIY, 2-sided is easy and it's a lot quicker than waiting for a shipment from china. But 3d printing, CNC routing, all those methods are an order of magnitude coarser production and not suitable for anything except very simple projects, and veroboard/stripboard is about on-par signal integrity wise.
pixelface 7y ago
one niche where i'd argue it's not only valuable but also period correct is restoring and modifying vintage electronics. Frequently they are single sided through hole boards that were not born from a CAD program, and are not available for purchase. You can certainly make the new board with CAD and a fab house, but for things like vintage synthesizers a hand etched board may actually be more appropriate and original. Also the importance of latency in some cases is significant. When the goal is to iterate a board quickly several times and a diy board is good enough, being able to have a board in an hour or less could mean multiple board iterations in one day where sending out to fab might draw out each board iteration to a week long wait.
- krallja 7y ago
  Do people still do wire-wrap prototyping? Strong enough for (tiny-scale) production, yet no chemicals, soldering, or drilling required.

prashnts 7y ago

Nice! I tried doing this a few years ago with a RepRap build. It didn't go well! Bad marker, pigment that dissolved, not enough ink layers, but the most interesting one was with Staedtler markers which sorta dissolve previously laid down ink when I made multiple passes. Ended up doing toner transfer after giving up. I wonder how would a thin plastic film cut with one of those vinyl sticker cutters would fare for masking.

StavrosK 7y ago
Oh huh, I'm using an Edding 140S, in case it matters. It was what they gave me when I asked for a permanent marker, and it worked beautifully. Didn't dissolve at all in the etchant, yet wipes right off with some alcohol.
- prashnts 7y ago
  No doubt, I had no idea which marker to use. Thanks for the suggestion, I want to give it another go since toner transfer is often a hit/miss.
  - StavrosK 7y ago
    No problem, give it a shot, it worked really really well in my tests, and very easily.
    - armitron 7y ago
      I wouldn't describe the results you show in the photos as "worked really really well". The traces are uneven and full of holes and discontinuities. To me that's completely unacceptable. I'd throw them in the garbage but I guess I'm too OCD and obsessed about quality to work with hand-etched PCBs.
      - StavrosK 7y ago
        To me, the circuit did its job, so it worked really well.

jpindar 7y ago

This is not what I was hoping for (literally printing the traces).

falcolas 7y ago
Given that there are wood and metal filaments, it may be possible (the flip side being the filaments are still only around 70% wood/metal, and are hard on extruders).
StavrosK 7y ago
It shouldn't be too hard to print the traces, I just didn't try it. I don't know how well the plastic would adhere.
- pjbk 7y ago
  As I stated above, use TPU or Ninjaflex filament. It adheres very well to a clean copper surface. Start etching immediately after printing.
  - StavrosK 7y ago
    You also mentioned an adhesive, what's that for? Also, how do you find it better than the marker method?
    - pjbk 7y ago
      It will prevent the plastic layers from detaching too easily. Specially if you do the etching in a warm bath. If you do it right, the finish is far superior than using a marker, in particular edge traces that turn out very well defined. That means it's easier to do fine pitch SMD pads, for example. Through the years I have done many PCBs using different methods: Sharpie markers, Posca pens, inkjet and laser printing, transfers of different materials, etc. Except perhaps for pro laser etching or routing, nothing beats photomasks. In my experience the quality I get with 3D filament compares to a DIY routing table, so if you have a 3D printer and don't mind chemical etching, you don't need one.

qaute 7y ago

There are other ways to make PCBs with a 3D printer: Instead of etching copper, some people directly print the circuitry with a solder extruder [1]. The idea's been around for a while [2] but circuit complexity is usually very limited. Here's a guide [3] (to a similar method) that uses a hobbyist 3D printer. To improve on the article's pen-masking method, you can mount a laser instead of a pen to the 3D printer and expose a specially coated PCB [4]. Or expose UV light through an LCD [5]. One can also just mount a milling tool to the printer and cut away the copper directly [6]. A 3D printer's not designed to take the forces from milling well, so similar but specially designed machines are made [7]. The most impressive methods are geared toward industry: A cutting-edge industry-grade electronics 3D printer looks like [8]: an inkjet-style printer with conductive and insulating (dielectric) inks. Somewhat related, you can use a laser etching and electroplating process ("3D Moulded Interconnect Devices" "3D MID") to make PCBs on 3D printed weirdly shaped (i.e., definitely not flat) surfaces. [9] is an impressive example, and definitely check out a search engine's image results [10]. [1] http://diy3dprinting.blogspot.com/2015/01/voxel8-conductive-ink-embedded.html http://diy3dprinting.blogspot.com/2015/01/voxel8-conductive-... [2] http://blog.reprap.org/2009/04/first-reprapped-circuit.html http://blog.reprap.org/2009/04/first-reprapped-circuit.html [3] https://www.instructables.com/id/3D-Printing-3D-Print-A-Solderless-Circuit-Board/ https://www.instructables.com/id/3D-Printing-3D-Print-A-Sold... [4] https://dangerouspayload.com/2017/12/17/pcb-uv-exposure-scanner/ https://dangerouspayload.com/2017/12/17/pcb-uv-exposure-scan... [5] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vxl7glJMKOQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vxl7glJMKOQ [6] https://www.instructables.com/id/PCB-Milling-Using-a-3D-Printer/ https://www.instructables.com/id/PCB-Milling-Using-a-3D-Prin... [7] https://www.bantamtools.com/pcb-milling-machine https://www.bantamtools.com/pcb-milling-machine [8] https://www.nano-di.com/dragonfly-pro-3d-printer https://www.nano-di.com/dragonfly-pro-3d-printer [9] https://www.festo.com/group/en/cms/10157.htm https://www.festo.com/group/en/cms/10157.htm [10] https://duckduckgo.com/?q=3d+moulded+interconnect+devices&t=ffab&iax=images&ia=images https://duckduckgo.com/?q=3d+moulded+interconnect+devices&t=...

jgamman 7y ago

Note to chemists: PCB is a printed circuit board not a polychlorinated biphenyl. i know i came for the wonder of atomic scale printers but still, printing circuits is cool too.

osrec 7y ago

Rather than using an etching solution, could you just use a Dremel style attachment to shave off the copper from the board to "reveal" your PCB design?

ur-whale 7y ago
There's tons of videos and web sites on the net describing this, usually with tiny and cheap CNC machines. It works very well, and there's no need to use nasty chemicals anywhere in the process.
- JshWright 7y ago
  > and there's no need to use nasty chemicals anywhere in the process. Yeah, instead you get lots of microscopic airborne fiberglass strands (a known carcinogen). Yay....?
waiseristy 7y ago
That's another possibility. I don't think you can get as good of a resolution though. Also dremels are loud as hell

poseid 7y ago

simple and beautiful!

beeforpork 7y ago

OK, I am puzzled: 2D printing is a dark art, but 3D printing is not? And comparing this to Chinese PCB manufacturing services is weird, too. If you want double sided, with vias, down to tiny traces, with plating and solder-stop and text, then you may be willing to pay the shipment and wait a few days. Yes, I admit that this is a fun method. But what is the advantage over laser printing and then, say, using UV light to transfer to a photo PCB? Honestly, I do not get why laser printers are a dark art, please explain!

bob1029 7y ago
I came here with the same question. I can see how the laser printer approach might have its own difficulties, but from a layman's perspective this seems like the most accessible & reproducible path.
- hwillis 7y ago
  It's very much an art. Gotta have the right paper, printer, and temperature application, and there's no good way to know until you have a feel for it. Plus finding a laser printer is a hassle now.
  - jacquesm 7y ago
    > Plus finding a laser printer is a hassle now. Huh? Aren't they a complete commodity? $250 will get you a half decent one.
    - StavrosK 7y ago
      I don't know about everyone else, because what you're saying seems to be a common sentiment and multiple people here mention "just" getting a $200+ piece of equipment, but neither the $200 nor finding the space to put the printer on is worth it to me for the ~1 PCB per year I want to make (and ~0 pages I want to print). At most, I might go to a printing place and ask them to print a page, but my 3D printer is right there and this saves me a trip.

ur-whale 7y ago

This does not solve what (to me) is the main problem how DYI PCB making: the chemical step. For me, that is the number one things that needs to be solved: using nasty chemicals to etch copper away. Not drawing on the copper. That's easy (and there's a million ways to do it).

djmips 7y ago
If you're patient you can use vinegar, hydrogen peroxide, and salt. You still create a copper salt that you need to dispose of properly. http://quinndunki.com/blondihacks/?p=835 http://quinndunki.com/blondihacks/?p=835
StavrosK 7y ago
Etching the small PCBs I created took a minimal amount of chemicals in the cut bottom of a water bottle. It's not nothing, but it wasn't a big problem.
- ur-whale 7y ago
  How did you get rid of the byproducts ?

ur-whale 7y ago

Just get yourself a tiny CNC machine from banggood and then do this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ak0IJUMBFg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ak0IJUMBFg No chemicals involved, no hacking a machine that wasn't designed for the task.

JshWright 7y ago
No _liquid_ chemicals... Airborne fiberglass threads are a lot more dangerous.

salamanderman 7y ago

Taking a guess at the issue the pcb2gcode author is dealing with, they probably are trying to solve the same problems as this patent: https://patents.google.com/patent/US10061301B2 https://patents.google.com/patent/US10061301B2

itronitron 7y ago

You can also use a Circuit Scribe pen [0] to draw the circuits directly without the messy step of acid etching the plate. Related [1]. 0. https://www.circuitscribe.com/ https://www.circuitscribe.com/ 1. https://chibitronics.com/sailboat-card/ https://chibitronics.com/sailboat-card/

jstanley 7y ago
I couldn't tell from their website: can you solder to this stuff? If so, it sounds incredibly promising, but if not, then I'm struggling to see how you use this to connect standard components together.
- itronitron 7y ago
  Good point, the 'ink' is silver but there is no mention of whether it can be successfully soldered. I wonder if the ink lines can at least aid the flow of solder.

fest 7y ago

Another way to step up the resolution a notch is using photoresist coated PCB and a small UV laser. It is typically a negative process (exposed photoresist dissolves in developer solution), so you'd have to invert your plot/gcode, there are two extra steps (developing the exposed photoresist so it dissolves and dissolving the remaining photoresist after etching in acetone bath). However, that brings you closer to being able to prototype a PCB for something with 0.5mm pitch.

Jemm 7y ago

I used my 3D printer with a sharpie rubber banded to the carriage to draw labels on CDs for a friends band. Worked very well. Can’t remember the exact software in used but it was a script that converted a png to gcode.

kragen 7y ago

Homo Faciens made a page about the mechanical side of this process last year: https://homofaciens.de/technics-machines-3D-printer-Zonestar-Printer_en.htm https://homofaciens.de/technics-machines-3D-printer-Zonestar...

yezr 7y ago

lol and how can you not enjoy the surprise ending!

mighty_atomic_c 7y ago

I've had some success converting an old printer to do pen plotting, but I haven't tried PCB manufacture yet because Sharpie marker does not do a sufficient, reliable job at working as a mask. I haven't been able to even use it to touch up my own projects! My experience is mostly with warmed Ferric Chloride as the etchant, so perhaps ymmv with other etchants. However, in my case, glossy photo paper + laserjet transferred with clothes or hair iron (a tedious and awful process) works well, but Sharpie has not been able to help me touching up any areas damaged by the transfer. If anyone else has a better mask suggestion than Sharpie, I could try out that sort of thing instead.

StavrosK 7y ago
I used an edding marker (I mention the model in another comment) that worked excellently.