6 ms·

Sure but also, is this what we "want"? (for wildly varying definitions of the word want.) Takeaway available with the press of a button is certainly not what m

Sure but also, is this what we "want"? (for wildly varying definitions of the word want.) Takeaway available with the press of a button is certainly not what my soul wants.

Udik 7y ago
Sure we do. These are our small-scale desires. Then you might think that on a larger scale this is not really what you want- but try to deny the right of people to desire ordering food from home, or buying online, or going where they want as fast as it's possible, or being cured from pneumonia or cancer.
- solotronics 7y ago
  Really curious why you are being downvoted. The pyramid of needs is at work here, when your basic needs are satisfied it becomes easier to work on higher level issues. Is one a better philosopher when they are starving? I don't know. I would rather be a well fed philosopher than a starving one.
  - vbsteven 7y ago
    The stoics for example have a practice where they deliberately deprive themselves of basic things like food and warmth in order to appreciate those things more when they do have them.
    - karatestomp 7y ago
      In Seneca's case, at least, he advocated similar things (playing at being a destitute beggar every now and then) to remove fear of bad circumstances, not exactly to increase appreciation of good circumstances.
      - uoaei 7y ago
        Right, this is the point of negative visualization. But the two go hand in hand just like anything else that can be framed as "yin-yang".
        beat 7y ago
        Something I say constantly, especially to others trying to make a decision to act, is "What's the worst thing that could possibly happen?" The thing is, you probably can't even imagine the worst thing that can possibly happen from any given decision. But by saying it out loud, you try, at least briefly. And in doing so, you often realize that "the worst thing that could possibly happen" really isn't all that bad. I wanna ask this person on a date. What's the worst thing that could possibly happen? They say no and I feel embarrassed. It's a lot easier to do scary things if you actually think about the consequences of failure, rather than letting animal fear control you. This, I learned from the Stoics.
  - curuinor 7y ago
    Lots of things that look like hierarchies are more like stuff distributed ~ power law. Certainly wealth, but I think actual needs are pretty distributed ~ power law. Breathing looks hierarchically more important than self-actualization but it's just that a material portion of your entire ensemble of needs is just breathing - completely not optional. Given that, you can futz w/ stuff and see if the levy-stable structure of this sort of thing will allow you to fold over different stuff
    - highfrequency 7y ago
      > Given that, you can futz w/ stuff and see if the levy-stable structure of this sort of thing will allow you to fold over different stuff Your writing alternates between being overly complicated and being so casual that it's vague. Can you rephrase in plain language?
  - salawat 7y ago
    Note that eating is a bit of an occupational hazard for philosophers, as every attempt to dine comes with the mortal danger of deadlock. Always be prepared. Have your own backup set of silverware anytime you eat.
  - uoaei 7y ago
    Discussions like this get sullied because people interpret the word "want" differently. Some interpret it as an action that is supported by a conscious will and get offended when it is supposed that they want something that is, rationally speaking, not what a person should want. Things like procrastination and gluttony. In my experience these people's thinking tends to be more libertarian. My impression is that their egos have a stronger hold on them than their material needs. Others will interpret "want" as a desire borne from basal physiology, acknowledging that we (the "person") are pilots of organic bodies (the "human") that sometimes induce certain emotions and drives that we are unable to suppress. These people tend to be more holistic thinkers.
- inopinatus 7y ago
  Our monkey brains are not evolved to deal with the satisfaction barrage of met expectations, or the microdosed dopamine of incremental reputation tallies. We've weaponised the apparatus of retail and communication against our own limbic systems.
vnorilo 7y ago
I found a single origin espresso that I really like. One time I bought a bag of beans it occurred to me that requiring coffee beans from a specific farm in Rhuanda sounds like something a king might do. Even my bog standard middle class luxury feels wildly excessive sometimes.
- leesec 7y ago
  I'm with ya. I'm pretty solidly middle - maybe upper middle class, but even the fact that I have opinions about Malbec over Pinot Noir makes me feel gross with opulence, not sure why.
  - K0SM0S 7y ago
    I've a different take, more symmetric in time. How prodigious is it that so many of us know so many intricacies and details about so much stuff, from the aesthetic to the mechanic. We don't know if our point in the universe is to spread life or morality or simply to make it pretty, it's probably pointless to wonder beyond our very own life, but there's no denying that we are growing. We are becoming. Only by getting there can we know what it is. But it sure is one-of-a-kind. All the cynicism and pessimism in the world falls short in the face of our past achievements, let alone the future potential of this Earth (I like to consider all life here to be part of the journey, we didn't exactly "win" in isolation, and "we" is more like the system to me, however large that is).
    - kortex 7y ago
      > We are becoming. Only by getting there can we know what it is. But it sure is one-of-a-kind. I have been having a bit of a rough month, one of those obdectively good on the outside view but subjectively on the inside full of self-doubt and existential angst. This just yanked me out of that headspace, for a few moments at least. Thank you :)
      - K0SM0S 7y ago
        Much obliged :)
squeaky-clean 7y ago
I could be getting it wrong, but I thought this was part of the wordplay of the poem. It's not necessarily what your soul wants, it's what the small sorcerer inside you wants. The one that when you get hungry says "You know you can just stay in and have someone deliver it", or when you see an interesting book mentioned in conversation goes "We can have that on our shelf in less than 2 days!".

Sure but also, is this what we "want"? (for wildly varying definitions of the word want.) Takeaway available with the press of a button is certainly not what my soul wants.

Udik 7y ago

Sure we do. These are our small-scale desires. Then you might think that on a larger scale this is not really what you want- but try to deny the right of people to desire ordering food from home, or buying online, or going where they want as fast as it's possible, or being cured from pneumonia or cancer.

solotronics 7y ago
Really curious why you are being downvoted. The pyramid of needs is at work here, when your basic needs are satisfied it becomes easier to work on higher level issues. Is one a better philosopher when they are starving? I don't know. I would rather be a well fed philosopher than a starving one.
- vbsteven 7y ago
  The stoics for example have a practice where they deliberately deprive themselves of basic things like food and warmth in order to appreciate those things more when they do have them.
  - karatestomp 7y ago
    In Seneca's case, at least, he advocated similar things (playing at being a destitute beggar every now and then) to remove fear of bad circumstances, not exactly to increase appreciation of good circumstances.
    - uoaei 7y ago
      Right, this is the point of negative visualization. But the two go hand in hand just like anything else that can be framed as "yin-yang".
      - beat 7y ago
        Something I say constantly, especially to others trying to make a decision to act, is "What's the worst thing that could possibly happen?" The thing is, you probably can't even imagine the worst thing that can possibly happen from any given decision. But by saying it out loud, you try, at least briefly. And in doing so, you often realize that "the worst thing that could possibly happen" really isn't all that bad. I wanna ask this person on a date. What's the worst thing that could possibly happen? They say no and I feel embarrassed. It's a lot easier to do scary things if you actually think about the consequences of failure, rather than letting animal fear control you. This, I learned from the Stoics.
- curuinor 7y ago
  Lots of things that look like hierarchies are more like stuff distributed ~ power law. Certainly wealth, but I think actual needs are pretty distributed ~ power law. Breathing looks hierarchically more important than self-actualization but it's just that a material portion of your entire ensemble of needs is just breathing - completely not optional. Given that, you can futz w/ stuff and see if the levy-stable structure of this sort of thing will allow you to fold over different stuff
  - highfrequency 7y ago
    > Given that, you can futz w/ stuff and see if the levy-stable structure of this sort of thing will allow you to fold over different stuff Your writing alternates between being overly complicated and being so casual that it's vague. Can you rephrase in plain language?
- salawat 7y ago
  Note that eating is a bit of an occupational hazard for philosophers, as every attempt to dine comes with the mortal danger of deadlock. Always be prepared. Have your own backup set of silverware anytime you eat.
- uoaei 7y ago
  Discussions like this get sullied because people interpret the word "want" differently. Some interpret it as an action that is supported by a conscious will and get offended when it is supposed that they want something that is, rationally speaking, not what a person should want. Things like procrastination and gluttony. In my experience these people's thinking tends to be more libertarian. My impression is that their egos have a stronger hold on them than their material needs. Others will interpret "want" as a desire borne from basal physiology, acknowledging that we (the "person") are pilots of organic bodies (the "human") that sometimes induce certain emotions and drives that we are unable to suppress. These people tend to be more holistic thinkers.
inopinatus 7y ago
Our monkey brains are not evolved to deal with the satisfaction barrage of met expectations, or the microdosed dopamine of incremental reputation tallies. We've weaponised the apparatus of retail and communication against our own limbic systems.

vnorilo 7y ago

I found a single origin espresso that I really like. One time I bought a bag of beans it occurred to me that requiring coffee beans from a specific farm in Rhuanda sounds like something a king might do. Even my bog standard middle class luxury feels wildly excessive sometimes.

leesec 7y ago
I'm with ya. I'm pretty solidly middle - maybe upper middle class, but even the fact that I have opinions about Malbec over Pinot Noir makes me feel gross with opulence, not sure why.
- K0SM0S 7y ago
  I've a different take, more symmetric in time. How prodigious is it that so many of us know so many intricacies and details about so much stuff, from the aesthetic to the mechanic. We don't know if our point in the universe is to spread life or morality or simply to make it pretty, it's probably pointless to wonder beyond our very own life, but there's no denying that we are growing. We are becoming. Only by getting there can we know what it is. But it sure is one-of-a-kind. All the cynicism and pessimism in the world falls short in the face of our past achievements, let alone the future potential of this Earth (I like to consider all life here to be part of the journey, we didn't exactly "win" in isolation, and "we" is more like the system to me, however large that is).
  - kortex 7y ago
    > We are becoming. Only by getting there can we know what it is. But it sure is one-of-a-kind. I have been having a bit of a rough month, one of those obdectively good on the outside view but subjectively on the inside full of self-doubt and existential angst. This just yanked me out of that headspace, for a few moments at least. Thank you :)
    - K0SM0S 7y ago
      Much obliged :)

squeaky-clean 7y ago

I could be getting it wrong, but I thought this was part of the wordplay of the poem. It's not necessarily what your soul wants, it's what the small sorcerer inside you wants. The one that when you get hungry says "You know you can just stay in and have someone deliver it", or when you see an interesting book mentioned in conversation goes "We can have that on our shelf in less than 2 days!".