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I've recently moved from the UK to another European country, and whilst I despise the way the politics is going back home - I'm amazed at how much better bankin

I've recently moved from the UK to another European country, and whilst I despise the way the politics is going back home - I'm amazed at how much better banking is back in the UK. It's free to have an account and debit card, often with a modest free overdraft. And transfers are really instant. As in I can transfer from Barclays to Santander and by the time I've double-tapped between bank apps the money will be there cleared, at any time of day. Here it's 'transfer before 2pm and we'll send it the same _working_ day!!' And that's once you've made your appointment a week out to open an account, and maybe received everything after a few weeks (if they like you that is)... I got the impression that N26 was mainly to challenge the latter way of working. I didn't understand what their offer was even for a free account that was better than even a 'legacy' bank in the UK (and I'm not sure they even support direct debit - which would have made it useless for any super-cheap energy/phone etc deals). In all - yes Brexit sucks, yes they may have stayed in the UK without it (although I wouldn't have expected them to introduce anything new), but I don't think they can blame any lack of success in the UK on it.

bbbobbb 7y ago
This really depends on the country you moved to. Banking in Germany will be much shittier while what you describe is norm in other countries for example.
- alibarber 7y ago
  Not Germany, but one that in many other ways is very efficient and forward thinking. I think the banking issues are more historical and due to having a small population with generally conservative attitudes towards money and financial institutions. But my point is that N26's offering is just not going to cut it across the whole EU(+UK), and any risk introduced by Brexit (or anything else that might happen) probably wasn't worth it for them, but claiming that they were pushed out by it is pushing it a bit. As a side, in sites such as this (HN), especially when comparing things to the US there is defintitely a tendancy to make sweeping statements such as 'in the EU $thing is [blah]...' but actually there are huge differences across the continent, which I think is actually the news story here.
  - rolltiide 7y ago
    yeah, in the US here is no expectation of a same day free transfer between banks. Only a "maybe" in the same bank. And you can sometimes game the ACH debit system to make things occur in "technically the same 24 hour time period". there are a couple tiers of paid wire transfers, but still no guarantees that you will have liquid settled cash in the same business day. the mere concept of the SEPA system in the EU is pretty nice
    - jryle70 7y ago
      Transferring money using Zelle [0], between participating banks, is pretty much instantly, at least in my experience. The limit is up to 20,000 monthly for me. YMMV. (0) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zelle_(payment_service) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zelle_(payment_service)
    - basch 7y ago
      Might not be people's first choice, but Facebook is instant. Like, the money is a non pending deposit seconds after the sender clicks send. Slick, and not a silly extra checking account like venmo.
  - szatkus 7y ago
    Why don't you just say where you moved to? It's quite interesting in context of your earlier comment.
    - BTinfinity 7y ago
      Finland if we believe his LinkedIn, no idea if it's up to date though
      - alibarber 7y ago
        Correct. It felt a bit impolite to moan about it, as I’ve found that once you get established and figure out the system everything else here works very well. That said all the natives that I know don’t exactly love their banks - so it’s ripe for disruption but I feel the market is always gonna be quite limited, due to inertia and size. Online banking is also _the_ identity service for logging into official and semi official systems here (unless you’re a nerd and want to hook up a smart card reader and your [optional] ID card - which I totally am) and I guess there’s a heap of compliance to deal with to enter this space, which would further limit entry to the market.
- bloodm 7y ago
  "Banking in Germany will be much shittier" Don't know mate. I don't know the UK banking system so well. But if I take HK experience with HSBC and SC and Newcomers in the UK like Revolut then I doubt your statement will make any sense.
Daniel_sk 7y ago
It really depends, Slovakia and Czech Republic usually have very modern banks. I can do everything through the app, I don’t remember the last time I had to go to an actual bank office. Apple Pay / Google Pay is almost everywhere, fast and easy bank-wire transfers, modern and secure apps with face/touch id...
- alibarber 7y ago
  Exactly - so I wouldn't expect N26 to have a particularly large customer base there (could be completely wrong though) if what they are offering isn't particulalry innovative by their standards.
- _visgean 7y ago
  Ehm, in czech republic the bank transfers are still not instantaneous...
- bloodm 7y ago
  All this seems really very biased. I think Germany has instant transfers for a fee but I am not sure. There was never a need for it. Czech has instant transfers already? Great. The CZ Bank I know charges 6 Euro per incomming EU Euro transaction.
  - mrrmx 7y ago
    I don't know if this is a recent thing, but my CZ bank charges nothing on incoming/outgoing SEPA payments (mbank). Regarding instant transfers, already supported by many banks in CZ (not mbank though, so can't tell if there is a fee), see https://www.mesec.cz/aktuality/okamzite-platby-umi-prijimat-uz-9-bank-odesilat-o-jednu-mene/ https://www.mesec.cz/aktuality/okamzite-platby-umi-prijimat-...
spiderjerusalem 7y ago
This is on the EU roadmap though, for what it's worth. Sometime in the next few years, we should see instantaneous transfers within the EU.
- ATsch 7y ago
  I have had SCT Instant for approximately a year. However, only around half of the target banks I send money to support it currently.
- rjzzleep 7y ago
  Actually the EU request the law to be adopted much earlier. The countries that blocked its early implementation were Germany and France.
  - woodpanel 7y ago
    The reason being a banking-sector that is deeply entangled with politics. When it comes to checking accounts co-op run banks have 26% marketshare in Germany, while statebanks and communal-run Sparkassen have 41% [0] Needless to say, they are not the most efficient and are even less prone for innovation. [0] https://de.statista.com/statistik/daten/studie/38041/umfrage/anzahl-der-girokonten-in-deutschland-nach-bankengruppe/ https://de.statista.com/statistik/daten/studie/38041/umfrage...
    - zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC 7y ago
      It's just that all co-op banks and Sparkassen have implemented SCT Inst (instant payment), while quite a few "commercial" banks have not (though the big two have). Though some of them do charge fees, some even outrageous fees, for the privilege of non-stone-age transfers (but then, others don't).
      - woodpanel 7y ago
        Almost all commercial banks offer SCT. And most of them for free while most co-op/sparkassen charge a fee (some of them even for receiving an instant payment which is rediculous). Sparkassen failed at numerous attempts to come up with an online payment system that gets any traction and it took considerably longer for them to adopt apple pay. I think it's also not good to paint commercial banks as one entity: There are old ones, large ones, cheap ones, upper-classy ones, spin-offs and startups. Sparkassen and co-ops are seldomly a startup e.g.. So depending on their clients and considering that SCT in DE has still low adoption amongst clients compared to direct debit mandates, a commercial bank or a startup may very rightfully choose to de-prioritize SCT adoption.
ukprisoner 7y ago
You havent been on the receiving end of all the automation, like having your bank account frozen for no reason, bank card frozen just because the security services feel like it, because I'm related to someone who was the highest Cat A prisoner whose Parkhurst prison break came in at number 3. All this automation means I darent speak in front of a laptop, dont have a mobile or bank account and havent worked for nearly ten years. Gave up the driving licence so I no longer have any photo ID. Dont even have a GP, not that I can afford prescriptions, as I'm not classed as unemployed. Cant get my records removed from the NHS despite the UK Govt selling them to US companies because like Google, "the UK population is the product". The UK security services are terrible because they make your life shit, I've had that online jihadist provocation that so many muslims who end up getting suicided by police guns end up and its always made to look like its your fault when they mess with your exam results (you never get exam papers back to independently check your paper against text books) so they can mess with you lives in so many ways. Criminals run the UK and keep lapping up the bullshit from tech surveillance industry in all its guises including banking.
cosmodisk 7y ago
Some parts of the UK banking are good,some are bad, and some are outright fully fledged idiocy. In mainland Europe it varies a lot depending on a country, i.e. Scandinavian banks in Baltics are pure shit.I had some funny situations with banks since I moved in to the UK: Barclays refused to open a bank account because the letter from the job centre( Confirmation of National Insurance Number application) had its logo in black and white instead of color. Santander issued some random card that is even more limited than simple debit card. Walked into Metro bank to pay a bill and asked how much it'd cost me- the guy's jaw dropped on the floor and then he replied that it's free( then my jaw dropped on the flor because that was undheard of for me). A guy I used to know walked into a branch of Santander with his employment contract with Starbucks asking to open a bank account.They refused.Walked out and went to the nearest branch of the same bank- they opened an account immediately. And the list goes on and on.
- wdb 7y ago
  Ah yes, after spending a lot of effort to open a bank account to receive your monthly pay; it ended up some weird account were you could only use your debit card at their ATMs. Madness. UK banks are weird
  - SirHound 7y ago
    I think that’s been illegal for over 20 years
    - wdb 7y ago
      Really interesting
- IndrekR 7y ago
  > In mainland Europe it varies a lot depending on a country, i.e. Scandinavian banks in Baltics are pure shit. Would you please elaborate? I have had quite a good experience with those banks.
satysin 7y ago
Oh. My. God. YES! I moved from the UK to France in 2018 (in part due to Brexit but that is a longer story) and dear god the banking systems here are utter shit. I am with HSBC and I can't even change the PIN on my debit card! Hell I couldn't even get my card and cheque book (yes they still use cheques here!) delivered to my address as it was a temporary one so I had to collect it from my branch in person. If I buy something on my card it takes at least three days before it is listed in the HSBC mobile app or web site. I generally use cash so it isn't a huge issue for me (check my post history for some explanation on why I mostly use cash) but god is banking frustrating here. The only positive is that I do have an actual account manager (as in the same person) who I always deal with and he is excellent at sorting my problem. I have to say I do like that consistent human content. Obviously if it is an emergency I use their emergency line (lost card, etc) but for general inquiries that don't require instant action my account manager is my go to. (thank you for bringing this up I feel I needed this quick rant!)
- _-___________-_ 7y ago
  > If I buy something on my card it takes at least three days before it is listed in the HSBC mobile app or web site. That's actually the case for my HSBC UK account too. It's impossible to know accurately what the balance of it really is at any time too; both the real balance and the available balance fluctuate wildly with no obvious relation to the transactions, which are delayed by a variable 1-3 days (presumably depending on the type of transaction). They seem to be about ten years behind all the startup banks.
  - philpem 7y ago
    It seems to be a thing for all the incumbent UK banks I've tried. CYBG/B (now the second incarnation of Virgin), Lloyds, Halifax, NatWest -- all have that 3-day delay. Instant update was the killer feature that swung me to Starling. Well, that and Natwest calling some random guy (who later found me to tell me what happened) for a sales call, only to give him the transaction data for my last five transactions....! (obFD: no pecuniary interest, just a happy customer)
- kweks 7y ago
Nition 7y ago
I didn't really understand why there were so many banking startups in the US until I found out that simple bank transfers cost money over there.
- tylerhou 7y ago
  Bank transfers of money generally don't cost money. They are just slow.
  - Nition 7y ago
    Oh, really? Last time this came up people were saying you couldn't send $50 to your friend's bank account without something crazy like a $15 fee, and hence everyone apparently used a third-party app like Venmo.
    - patio11 7y ago
      There are three relatively common ways to send money electronically between two US bank accounts: Zelle: effectively instant, requires both banks to be on the network, free. Relatively new and many people who could use it don’t. ACH: a few days, effectively ubiquitous, very small underlying charge infrequently marked up to ~$3 by the bank. Wire transfers: not quite instant but close during banking hours, effectively ubiquitous by institution but often a pain for retail users to access due to risk profile, underlying cost is about $5 and often marked up to $15~$20. The UX of the P2P payment apps is much, much better than any of the above, and would be what I’d reach for for a transfer in the $X0 range contingent on my counterparty being likely to use apps.
      - raverbashing 7y ago
        Rest of the world: looks like Zelle most of the time (some occasions it's +1 day) Banks in Europe: There might be a fee in some cases but I don't remember paying one (or it's <$5). Rent or similars are just recurring SEPA payments (it's a push - not a direct debt) But can people (not business) initiate ACH transactions?
knorker 7y ago
What?! How can it possibly be worse than in the UK? I've lived in the UK and another European country, and if I didn't recognize brands like "HSBC" and "Barclays" I would have thought they were failed non serious players. The UK is quite literally decades behind some other countries, in banking.
- johneth 7y ago
  > The UK is quite literally decades behind some other countries, in banking. In what ways?
  - knorker 7y ago
    Introduction of second factor. Reporting. Statements. Investment platforms (just try the stocks or the fund platforms with HSBC). Design. And some interfaces require you to have pen and paper because the transfer webpage can't show you you own accounts, so you have to type your sort code and account number into a blank form. And just plain keeping the message-of-the-day actually refer to things that happened this year. For a start.
tarsinge 7y ago
Sounds strange to me, I have a free account with N26 in France with free debit card, and also most banks here do instant transfers now.

bbbobbb 7y ago

This really depends on the country you moved to. Banking in Germany will be much shittier while what you describe is norm in other countries for example.

alibarber 7y ago
Not Germany, but one that in many other ways is very efficient and forward thinking. I think the banking issues are more historical and due to having a small population with generally conservative attitudes towards money and financial institutions. But my point is that N26's offering is just not going to cut it across the whole EU(+UK), and any risk introduced by Brexit (or anything else that might happen) probably wasn't worth it for them, but claiming that they were pushed out by it is pushing it a bit. As a side, in sites such as this (HN), especially when comparing things to the US there is defintitely a tendancy to make sweeping statements such as 'in the EU $thing is [blah]...' but actually there are huge differences across the continent, which I think is actually the news story here.
- rolltiide 7y ago
  yeah, in the US here is no expectation of a same day free transfer between banks. Only a "maybe" in the same bank. And you can sometimes game the ACH debit system to make things occur in "technically the same 24 hour time period". there are a couple tiers of paid wire transfers, but still no guarantees that you will have liquid settled cash in the same business day. the mere concept of the SEPA system in the EU is pretty nice
  - jryle70 7y ago
    Transferring money using Zelle [0], between participating banks, is pretty much instantly, at least in my experience. The limit is up to 20,000 monthly for me. YMMV. (0) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zelle_(payment_service) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zelle_(payment_service)
  - basch 7y ago
    Might not be people's first choice, but Facebook is instant. Like, the money is a non pending deposit seconds after the sender clicks send. Slick, and not a silly extra checking account like venmo.
- szatkus 7y ago
  Why don't you just say where you moved to? It's quite interesting in context of your earlier comment.
  - BTinfinity 7y ago
    Finland if we believe his LinkedIn, no idea if it's up to date though
    - alibarber 7y ago
      Correct. It felt a bit impolite to moan about it, as I’ve found that once you get established and figure out the system everything else here works very well. That said all the natives that I know don’t exactly love their banks - so it’s ripe for disruption but I feel the market is always gonna be quite limited, due to inertia and size. Online banking is also _the_ identity service for logging into official and semi official systems here (unless you’re a nerd and want to hook up a smart card reader and your [optional] ID card - which I totally am) and I guess there’s a heap of compliance to deal with to enter this space, which would further limit entry to the market.
bloodm 7y ago
"Banking in Germany will be much shittier" Don't know mate. I don't know the UK banking system so well. But if I take HK experience with HSBC and SC and Newcomers in the UK like Revolut then I doubt your statement will make any sense.

Daniel_sk 7y ago

It really depends, Slovakia and Czech Republic usually have very modern banks. I can do everything through the app, I don’t remember the last time I had to go to an actual bank office. Apple Pay / Google Pay is almost everywhere, fast and easy bank-wire transfers, modern and secure apps with face/touch id...

alibarber 7y ago
Exactly - so I wouldn't expect N26 to have a particularly large customer base there (could be completely wrong though) if what they are offering isn't particulalry innovative by their standards.
_visgean 7y ago
Ehm, in czech republic the bank transfers are still not instantaneous...
bloodm 7y ago
All this seems really very biased. I think Germany has instant transfers for a fee but I am not sure. There was never a need for it. Czech has instant transfers already? Great. The CZ Bank I know charges 6 Euro per incomming EU Euro transaction.
- mrrmx 7y ago
  I don't know if this is a recent thing, but my CZ bank charges nothing on incoming/outgoing SEPA payments (mbank). Regarding instant transfers, already supported by many banks in CZ (not mbank though, so can't tell if there is a fee), see https://www.mesec.cz/aktuality/okamzite-platby-umi-prijimat-uz-9-bank-odesilat-o-jednu-mene/ https://www.mesec.cz/aktuality/okamzite-platby-umi-prijimat-...

spiderjerusalem 7y ago

This is on the EU roadmap though, for what it's worth. Sometime in the next few years, we should see instantaneous transfers within the EU.

ATsch 7y ago
I have had SCT Instant for approximately a year. However, only around half of the target banks I send money to support it currently.
rjzzleep 7y ago
Actually the EU request the law to be adopted much earlier. The countries that blocked its early implementation were Germany and France.
- woodpanel 7y ago
  The reason being a banking-sector that is deeply entangled with politics. When it comes to checking accounts co-op run banks have 26% marketshare in Germany, while statebanks and communal-run Sparkassen have 41% [0] Needless to say, they are not the most efficient and are even less prone for innovation. [0] https://de.statista.com/statistik/daten/studie/38041/umfrage/anzahl-der-girokonten-in-deutschland-nach-bankengruppe/ https://de.statista.com/statistik/daten/studie/38041/umfrage...
  - zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC 7y ago
    It's just that all co-op banks and Sparkassen have implemented SCT Inst (instant payment), while quite a few "commercial" banks have not (though the big two have). Though some of them do charge fees, some even outrageous fees, for the privilege of non-stone-age transfers (but then, others don't).
    - woodpanel 7y ago
      Almost all commercial banks offer SCT. And most of them for free while most co-op/sparkassen charge a fee (some of them even for receiving an instant payment which is rediculous). Sparkassen failed at numerous attempts to come up with an online payment system that gets any traction and it took considerably longer for them to adopt apple pay. I think it's also not good to paint commercial banks as one entity: There are old ones, large ones, cheap ones, upper-classy ones, spin-offs and startups. Sparkassen and co-ops are seldomly a startup e.g.. So depending on their clients and considering that SCT in DE has still low adoption amongst clients compared to direct debit mandates, a commercial bank or a startup may very rightfully choose to de-prioritize SCT adoption.

ukprisoner 7y ago

You havent been on the receiving end of all the automation, like having your bank account frozen for no reason, bank card frozen just because the security services feel like it, because I'm related to someone who was the highest Cat A prisoner whose Parkhurst prison break came in at number 3. All this automation means I darent speak in front of a laptop, dont have a mobile or bank account and havent worked for nearly ten years. Gave up the driving licence so I no longer have any photo ID. Dont even have a GP, not that I can afford prescriptions, as I'm not classed as unemployed. Cant get my records removed from the NHS despite the UK Govt selling them to US companies because like Google, "the UK population is the product". The UK security services are terrible because they make your life shit, I've had that online jihadist provocation that so many muslims who end up getting suicided by police guns end up and its always made to look like its your fault when they mess with your exam results (you never get exam papers back to independently check your paper against text books) so they can mess with you lives in so many ways. Criminals run the UK and keep lapping up the bullshit from tech surveillance industry in all its guises including banking.

cosmodisk 7y ago

Some parts of the UK banking are good,some are bad, and some are outright fully fledged idiocy. In mainland Europe it varies a lot depending on a country, i.e. Scandinavian banks in Baltics are pure shit.I had some funny situations with banks since I moved in to the UK: Barclays refused to open a bank account because the letter from the job centre( Confirmation of National Insurance Number application) had its logo in black and white instead of color. Santander issued some random card that is even more limited than simple debit card. Walked into Metro bank to pay a bill and asked how much it'd cost me- the guy's jaw dropped on the floor and then he replied that it's free( then my jaw dropped on the flor because that was undheard of for me). A guy I used to know walked into a branch of Santander with his employment contract with Starbucks asking to open a bank account.They refused.Walked out and went to the nearest branch of the same bank- they opened an account immediately. And the list goes on and on.

wdb 7y ago
Ah yes, after spending a lot of effort to open a bank account to receive your monthly pay; it ended up some weird account were you could only use your debit card at their ATMs. Madness. UK banks are weird
- SirHound 7y ago
  I think that’s been illegal for over 20 years
  - wdb 7y ago
    Really interesting
IndrekR 7y ago
> In mainland Europe it varies a lot depending on a country, i.e. Scandinavian banks in Baltics are pure shit. Would you please elaborate? I have had quite a good experience with those banks.

satysin 7y ago

Oh. My. God. YES! I moved from the UK to France in 2018 (in part due to Brexit but that is a longer story) and dear god the banking systems here are utter shit. I am with HSBC and I can't even change the PIN on my debit card! Hell I couldn't even get my card and cheque book (yes they still use cheques here!) delivered to my address as it was a temporary one so I had to collect it from my branch in person. If I buy something on my card it takes at least three days before it is listed in the HSBC mobile app or web site. I generally use cash so it isn't a huge issue for me (check my post history for some explanation on why I mostly use cash) but god is banking frustrating here. The only positive is that I do have an actual account manager (as in the same person) who I always deal with and he is excellent at sorting my problem. I have to say I do like that consistent human content. Obviously if it is an emergency I use their emergency line (lost card, etc) but for general inquiries that don't require instant action my account manager is my go to. (thank you for bringing this up I feel I needed this quick rant!)

_-___________-_ 7y ago
> If I buy something on my card it takes at least three days before it is listed in the HSBC mobile app or web site. That's actually the case for my HSBC UK account too. It's impossible to know accurately what the balance of it really is at any time too; both the real balance and the available balance fluctuate wildly with no obvious relation to the transactions, which are delayed by a variable 1-3 days (presumably depending on the type of transaction). They seem to be about ten years behind all the startup banks.
- philpem 7y ago
  It seems to be a thing for all the incumbent UK banks I've tried. CYBG/B (now the second incarnation of Virgin), Lloyds, Halifax, NatWest -- all have that 3-day delay. Instant update was the killer feature that swung me to Starling. Well, that and Natwest calling some random guy (who later found me to tell me what happened) for a sales call, only to give him the transaction data for my last five transactions....! (obFD: no pecuniary interest, just a happy customer)
kweks 7y ago

Nition 7y ago

I didn't really understand why there were so many banking startups in the US until I found out that simple bank transfers cost money over there.

tylerhou 7y ago
Bank transfers of money generally don't cost money. They are just slow.
- Nition 7y ago
  Oh, really? Last time this came up people were saying you couldn't send $50 to your friend's bank account without something crazy like a $15 fee, and hence everyone apparently used a third-party app like Venmo.
  - patio11 7y ago
    There are three relatively common ways to send money electronically between two US bank accounts: Zelle: effectively instant, requires both banks to be on the network, free. Relatively new and many people who could use it don’t. ACH: a few days, effectively ubiquitous, very small underlying charge infrequently marked up to ~$3 by the bank. Wire transfers: not quite instant but close during banking hours, effectively ubiquitous by institution but often a pain for retail users to access due to risk profile, underlying cost is about $5 and often marked up to $15~$20. The UX of the P2P payment apps is much, much better than any of the above, and would be what I’d reach for for a transfer in the $X0 range contingent on my counterparty being likely to use apps.
    - raverbashing 7y ago
      Rest of the world: looks like Zelle most of the time (some occasions it's +1 day) Banks in Europe: There might be a fee in some cases but I don't remember paying one (or it's <$5). Rent or similars are just recurring SEPA payments (it's a push - not a direct debt) But can people (not business) initiate ACH transactions?

knorker 7y ago

What?! How can it possibly be worse than in the UK? I've lived in the UK and another European country, and if I didn't recognize brands like "HSBC" and "Barclays" I would have thought they were failed non serious players. The UK is quite literally decades behind some other countries, in banking.

johneth 7y ago
> The UK is quite literally decades behind some other countries, in banking. In what ways?
- knorker 7y ago
  Introduction of second factor. Reporting. Statements. Investment platforms (just try the stocks or the fund platforms with HSBC). Design. And some interfaces require you to have pen and paper because the transfer webpage can't show you you own accounts, so you have to type your sort code and account number into a blank form. And just plain keeping the message-of-the-day actually refer to things that happened this year. For a start.

tarsinge 7y ago

Sounds strange to me, I have a free account with N26 in France with free debit card, and also most banks here do instant transfers now.