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One more Firefox release, one more long list of people on HN who: * have switched from Chrome because <...> reasons why Chrome is worse or has become worse *

One more Firefox release, one more long list of people on HN who: * have switched from Chrome because <...> reasons why Chrome is worse or has become worse * have always used Firefox and never left it * have used Firefox but have faced issues and would want to try it if <...> What I, as a long time Firefox user and evangelist, would like to know is how we can have Firefox thrive and grow, what Mozilla Corporation is doing (or not doing) to get more funding for Firefox, and why we aren't seeing all those services that they wanted to sell to generate revenue. The Firefox team has reduced in size recently, and more money might probably help avoid such situations (or postpone them). P.S.: Donations on mozilla.org go to Mozilla Foundation, which is the non-profit parent of Mozilla Corporation (the maker of Firefox). I do not know of any direct way for end users/supporters to fund Firefox development.

Kuinox 7y ago
One of my coworker don't use it because some error in angular are showing up as [Object object] in Firefox, while in Chrome it show the full error.
- jazoom 7y ago
  Not just Angular. My Vue app as well. I can't figure out why Firefox doesn't just display the error.
  - bzbarsky 7y ago
    I'd love to know more about the setup here. I am aware of https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1595046 https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1595046 which is for cases when someone rejects a Promise with a non-Error (and non-DOMException, I suspect) object. Is that what's going on here? Or could it be the thing described in https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1595046#c5 https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1595046#c5 with throwing a random non-Error object and the resulting console interaction?
    - jazoom 7y ago
      I think it might have been the first case you described. I have only recently switched over to Firefox and that was my first debugging experience with it, so I didn't realise it was a specific case and a known bug. Thank you.
- eitland 7y ago
  Might be the same as I saw. I debugged something similar in Angular about 18 months ago, didn't have time to report it and blamed it on Google not testing in other browsers.
CM30 7y ago
Fortunately/unfortunately (hard to tell which), the answer for 'how to get Firefox to thrive and grow' might basically be to spend more money on ads, since Google Chrome was advertised everywhere in its early days. At one point, they were running TV commercials and putting ads on billboards at stations here in the UK. That probably got a lot of people's attention.
- MauranKilom 7y ago
  I've seen a bunch of Firefox ads (both irl and online) over the past year after Quantum was out.
- pbhjpbhj 7y ago
  A few people might have heard of the parent company too, like from their mobile OS, or from the search engine where they type their addresses in when browsing.
robbrown451 7y ago
Its lack of MIDI support is still holding me back. They've been talking about it for years. Till then I'm on Chromium, sorry. https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=836897 https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=836897
- sp332 7y ago
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  - robbrown451 7y ago
    You can toggle it on but it doesn't actually work.
- tartoran 7y ago
  You can use chromium for MIDI support and FF for everything else.
  - latexr 7y ago
    Most people don’t want to keep changing web browsers for every task. In particular if you do a lot of work (be it paid or a hobby) in a technology your web browser lacks, it’s less frustrating to use for everything the one that has the feature.
- lioeters 7y ago
  Fascinating (and disappointing..) comment thread about implementing the WebMIDI API in Firefox. The issue was reported (7 years ago) by Chris Wilson, who's been at Google working on WebAudio stuff for years and has published lots of related articles and repos. I'm a big fan. https://github.com/cwilso https://github.com/cwilso There's even a comment from someone at Ableton, expressing interest and support ("testing with preliminary builds as well as providing hardware for implementers to test with"). That was 2 years ago, and no one from Firefox engaged them?! Sounds like a huge missed opportunity. Sadly, the last comment a year ago was from a person no longer at Mozilla, saying the issue is stalled and that it's "very low priority work". --- Edit: Aah, now I'm imagining what might have been, a collaboration between Firefox and Ableton, would have been so cool..
ip26 7y ago
how we can have Firefox thrive and grow Not that anyone is asking me, but I think the mobile browser is a limiter. No matter how much I like a given desktop browser, I like bookmark & password syncing more. Unfortunately for me I find the Firefox desktop browser is first class, but the mobile browser is not. As a result it's almost immediately ruled out. I've never seen anyone else mention this so I might be a tiny minority.
- Miraste 7y ago
  You're not alone, Firefox mobile is practically unusable. But! For a while now, Mozilla has been putting all their development effort into Fenix (Firefox Preview on the Play Store), which has all the speed and responsiveness main Firefox doesn't, plus a better UI and general slickness. It even has limited extension support in the alpha, which should make it to the release version very soon. I've been using it as my main mobile browser for a few months now and it's great. There are still occasional bugs, but it's finally a legitimate Chrome alternative.
  - noisem4ker 7y ago
    >Firefox mobile is practically unusable. I vehemently disagree. With support for add-ons including uBlock Origin, it's one of the very few usable browsers on mobile.
    - Miraste 7y ago
      I was using Firefox mobile with uBlock Origin, and I found that Chrome with no adblocking was a better experience. Page loads, scrolling, zooming, and the other interactions were so slow they counteracted the advantage. That said, new Firefox mobile is way faster and the nightly build already has uBlock support. Best of both worlds.
      - mtrower 7y ago
        Slow? I don't find it slow at all, and my phone isn't exactly top-end; what kind of hardware were you running on? (I don't use uBlock on mobile, but I might go look into it...) My only complaint is that it doesn't integrate quite as well as Chrome, but I don't think that's Mozilla's fault.
LeoTinnitus 7y ago
I only left when they used to be the bloated browser that took up like 1gb of memory back in the late 00's early 10's. Now that's normal and I've sorta acclimated for the past 3 years.
Silhouette 7y ago
What I, as a long time Firefox user and evangelist, would like to know is how we can have Firefox thrive and grow Probably the same as anything else: find a USP that resonates with a large number of potential users. It used to be customisation and extensions, but it's been more than 2 years since Quantum and there are still numerous ways that my everyday browsing experience is worse now than it was before. I suspect that for a lot of people, Firefox is no longer particularly associated with being more customisable than any other browser, even if it was before. Today I suspect the best shot for a solid USP is the privacy/security angle, which is what kept me on Firefox as my default browser in the end despite it being much inferior after 57. But the marketing for that is inconsistent and gets drowned out in all the who-cares features that Firefox keeps introducing. Ironically, the breakage of extensions has probably contributed significantly to the loss of confidence in the security/privacy side, since it took out a lot of useful enhancements in those areas. Normal people don't understand tools like uBlock Origin, which are powerful but have UIs that make Git's look intuitive and well-designed, and in 2020 a simple, effective ad-blocker is entry-level for a decent browsing experience.
- commoner 7y ago
  AdGuard offers a simpler interface than uBlock Origin for users who prefer one. It's also free and open source, and includes most of the same filter lists. https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/adguard-adblocker https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/adguard-adblo... https://github.com/AdguardTeam/AdguardBrowserExtension https://github.com/AdguardTeam/AdguardBrowserExtension
faitswulff 7y ago
To add to that, how would one get started in contributing to Firefox's development directly?
- aswan 7y ago
  There's some good information here: https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Mozilla/Developer_guide/Introduction https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Mozilla/Developer_g... If you want to jump right in and look for bugs that match your skills/interest, try: https://codetribute.mozilla.org/ https://codetribute.mozilla.org/
terminaljunkid 7y ago
I don't like to say this but Mozilla leadership sucks. In the light of previous layoffs, there was a discussion that the CEO, who doesn't even have a proper technical background, is getting too high of compensation. I have also heard Mozilla has become a Suits-first company lately.
3r8riacz 7y ago
A self-hostable Firefox Accounts server + sync server would be great. AFAIK the FXA server is not self-hostable yet, only the sync which leaves a bad taste in owning your privacy.
latexr 7y ago
> how we can have Firefox thrive and grow By satisfying the needs of users who > have used Firefox but have faced issues and would want to try it if <...> You’re right that every time there’s a Firefox release, it rises to the top of HN with the same comments. I’ve stopped commenting, but I’ll do so now since you asked. Gripes with Firefox I’ve seen on HN include bad midi support and lack of (or broken) support for macOS features such as the Keychain. My reason for not using Firefox (and I inadvertently get people out of it) is that it’s atrocious for automation on macOS. It’s the only major browser without AppleScript support, and the bug report open for it is old enough to vote. When I’ve talked to people from Mozilla about it, I’ve gotten the reply that AppleScript is a power user feature that regular users don’t care for. What they fail to understand is that power users build features for others. I have several tools that interact with web browsers that are relatively popular with non-power users. Every time they ask “can you add support for Firefox?” my answer needs to be “I’d like to, but they don’t provide the functionality”. You can be certain that several of those abandon Firefox, because they’d rather have the convenience of the tool. You can have Firefox “thrive and grow” by giving its users what they need. It doesn’t matter how “private” Firefox is (and Mozilla has done plenty to not be trusted blindly on that regard) if people can’t use it as their daily browser.
SimeVidas 7y ago
The problem is traction. Most people just aren’t aware of Firefox or know very little about it. The solution is to partner with celebrities, the biggest ones, to make Firefox more popular as a choice for better privacy.

Kuinox 7y ago

One of my coworker don't use it because some error in angular are showing up as [Object object] in Firefox, while in Chrome it show the full error.

jazoom 7y ago
Not just Angular. My Vue app as well. I can't figure out why Firefox doesn't just display the error.
- bzbarsky 7y ago
  I'd love to know more about the setup here. I am aware of https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1595046 https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1595046 which is for cases when someone rejects a Promise with a non-Error (and non-DOMException, I suspect) object. Is that what's going on here? Or could it be the thing described in https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1595046#c5 https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1595046#c5 with throwing a random non-Error object and the resulting console interaction?
  - jazoom 7y ago
    I think it might have been the first case you described. I have only recently switched over to Firefox and that was my first debugging experience with it, so I didn't realise it was a specific case and a known bug. Thank you.
eitland 7y ago
Might be the same as I saw. I debugged something similar in Angular about 18 months ago, didn't have time to report it and blamed it on Google not testing in other browsers.

CM30 7y ago

Fortunately/unfortunately (hard to tell which), the answer for 'how to get Firefox to thrive and grow' might basically be to spend more money on ads, since Google Chrome was advertised everywhere in its early days. At one point, they were running TV commercials and putting ads on billboards at stations here in the UK. That probably got a lot of people's attention.

MauranKilom 7y ago
I've seen a bunch of Firefox ads (both irl and online) over the past year after Quantum was out.
pbhjpbhj 7y ago
A few people might have heard of the parent company too, like from their mobile OS, or from the search engine where they type their addresses in when browsing.

robbrown451 7y ago

Its lack of MIDI support is still holding me back. They've been talking about it for years. Till then I'm on Chromium, sorry. https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=836897 https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=836897

sp332 7y ago
-
- robbrown451 7y ago
  You can toggle it on but it doesn't actually work.
tartoran 7y ago
You can use chromium for MIDI support and FF for everything else.
- latexr 7y ago
  Most people don’t want to keep changing web browsers for every task. In particular if you do a lot of work (be it paid or a hobby) in a technology your web browser lacks, it’s less frustrating to use for everything the one that has the feature.
lioeters 7y ago
Fascinating (and disappointing..) comment thread about implementing the WebMIDI API in Firefox. The issue was reported (7 years ago) by Chris Wilson, who's been at Google working on WebAudio stuff for years and has published lots of related articles and repos. I'm a big fan. https://github.com/cwilso https://github.com/cwilso There's even a comment from someone at Ableton, expressing interest and support ("testing with preliminary builds as well as providing hardware for implementers to test with"). That was 2 years ago, and no one from Firefox engaged them?! Sounds like a huge missed opportunity. Sadly, the last comment a year ago was from a person no longer at Mozilla, saying the issue is stalled and that it's "very low priority work". --- Edit: Aah, now I'm imagining what might have been, a collaboration between Firefox and Ableton, would have been so cool..

ip26 7y ago

how we can have Firefox thrive and grow Not that anyone is asking me, but I think the mobile browser is a limiter. No matter how much I like a given desktop browser, I like bookmark & password syncing more. Unfortunately for me I find the Firefox desktop browser is first class, but the mobile browser is not. As a result it's almost immediately ruled out. I've never seen anyone else mention this so I might be a tiny minority.

Miraste 7y ago
You're not alone, Firefox mobile is practically unusable. But! For a while now, Mozilla has been putting all their development effort into Fenix (Firefox Preview on the Play Store), which has all the speed and responsiveness main Firefox doesn't, plus a better UI and general slickness. It even has limited extension support in the alpha, which should make it to the release version very soon. I've been using it as my main mobile browser for a few months now and it's great. There are still occasional bugs, but it's finally a legitimate Chrome alternative.
- noisem4ker 7y ago
  >Firefox mobile is practically unusable. I vehemently disagree. With support for add-ons including uBlock Origin, it's one of the very few usable browsers on mobile.
  - Miraste 7y ago
    I was using Firefox mobile with uBlock Origin, and I found that Chrome with no adblocking was a better experience. Page loads, scrolling, zooming, and the other interactions were so slow they counteracted the advantage. That said, new Firefox mobile is way faster and the nightly build already has uBlock support. Best of both worlds.
    - mtrower 7y ago
      Slow? I don't find it slow at all, and my phone isn't exactly top-end; what kind of hardware were you running on? (I don't use uBlock on mobile, but I might go look into it...) My only complaint is that it doesn't integrate quite as well as Chrome, but I don't think that's Mozilla's fault.

LeoTinnitus 7y ago

I only left when they used to be the bloated browser that took up like 1gb of memory back in the late 00's early 10's. Now that's normal and I've sorta acclimated for the past 3 years.

Silhouette 7y ago

What I, as a long time Firefox user and evangelist, would like to know is how we can have Firefox thrive and grow Probably the same as anything else: find a USP that resonates with a large number of potential users. It used to be customisation and extensions, but it's been more than 2 years since Quantum and there are still numerous ways that my everyday browsing experience is worse now than it was before. I suspect that for a lot of people, Firefox is no longer particularly associated with being more customisable than any other browser, even if it was before. Today I suspect the best shot for a solid USP is the privacy/security angle, which is what kept me on Firefox as my default browser in the end despite it being much inferior after 57. But the marketing for that is inconsistent and gets drowned out in all the who-cares features that Firefox keeps introducing. Ironically, the breakage of extensions has probably contributed significantly to the loss of confidence in the security/privacy side, since it took out a lot of useful enhancements in those areas. Normal people don't understand tools like uBlock Origin, which are powerful but have UIs that make Git's look intuitive and well-designed, and in 2020 a simple, effective ad-blocker is entry-level for a decent browsing experience.

commoner 7y ago
AdGuard offers a simpler interface than uBlock Origin for users who prefer one. It's also free and open source, and includes most of the same filter lists. https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/adguard-adblocker https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/adguard-adblo... https://github.com/AdguardTeam/AdguardBrowserExtension https://github.com/AdguardTeam/AdguardBrowserExtension

faitswulff 7y ago

To add to that, how would one get started in contributing to Firefox's development directly?

aswan 7y ago
There's some good information here: https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Mozilla/Developer_guide/Introduction https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Mozilla/Developer_g... If you want to jump right in and look for bugs that match your skills/interest, try: https://codetribute.mozilla.org/ https://codetribute.mozilla.org/

terminaljunkid 7y ago

I don't like to say this but Mozilla leadership sucks. In the light of previous layoffs, there was a discussion that the CEO, who doesn't even have a proper technical background, is getting too high of compensation. I have also heard Mozilla has become a Suits-first company lately.

3r8riacz 7y ago

A self-hostable Firefox Accounts server + sync server would be great. AFAIK the FXA server is not self-hostable yet, only the sync which leaves a bad taste in owning your privacy.

latexr 7y ago

> how we can have Firefox thrive and grow By satisfying the needs of users who > have used Firefox but have faced issues and would want to try it if <...> You’re right that every time there’s a Firefox release, it rises to the top of HN with the same comments. I’ve stopped commenting, but I’ll do so now since you asked. Gripes with Firefox I’ve seen on HN include bad midi support and lack of (or broken) support for macOS features such as the Keychain. My reason for not using Firefox (and I inadvertently get people out of it) is that it’s atrocious for automation on macOS. It’s the only major browser without AppleScript support, and the bug report open for it is old enough to vote. When I’ve talked to people from Mozilla about it, I’ve gotten the reply that AppleScript is a power user feature that regular users don’t care for. What they fail to understand is that power users build features for others. I have several tools that interact with web browsers that are relatively popular with non-power users. Every time they ask “can you add support for Firefox?” my answer needs to be “I’d like to, but they don’t provide the functionality”. You can be certain that several of those abandon Firefox, because they’d rather have the convenience of the tool. You can have Firefox “thrive and grow” by giving its users what they need. It doesn’t matter how “private” Firefox is (and Mozilla has done plenty to not be trusted blindly on that regard) if people can’t use it as their daily browser.

SimeVidas 7y ago

The problem is traction. Most people just aren’t aware of Firefox or know very little about it. The solution is to partner with celebrities, the biggest ones, to make Firefox more popular as a choice for better privacy.