11 ms·

Why poor people make poor decisions

93 points by colinprince 7y ago

exposay 7y ago
And poor decisions make people poor.
- i_haz_rabies 7y ago
  You might want to clarify to what degree you consider this to be a cause of poverty in general, or else the downvotes are just gonna keep coming.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- tejtm 7y ago
  Those poor decisions however need not be theirs.
  - exposay 7y ago
    Yes.
  - 0x4477 7y ago
    That may be so, but this idea does absolutely nothing to help someone get out of poverty. If you were born to financially illiterate parents and grow up poor or end up poor as a result, pointing to how it was stuff out of your control that made you poor will lead to nothing else but continuing to stay poor until you start doing things and making choices that lead you out of that situation. It sucks and isn't really fair, but the person best equipped to extract you from poverty is you. No one can make your choices for you, and you're far better off taking your life into your own hands and working to improve it than hoping that greater society will intervene on your behalf simply because your situation isn't favourable to you or because you're not entirely to blame for ending up in it.
- Broken_Hippo 7y ago
  That isn't entirely true, though. Your parents being poor often means you will be too simply because of the disadvantages it brings. Being a teacher is hardly a poor decision, but you will probably be poor because other people have decided it isn't worth it to pay you well. My ex has very little chance of being anything but poor, no matter the decisions he makes. He's on disability due to a mental disorder: Anyone that is on disability, especially at a young age (no matter reason), is in the same boat. The business you work at could close. Even if you made good enough decisions so far, you may or may not bounce back well. You might not have ever made enough money to be able to save 3 months worth of expenses, for example, and this is more likely if you are young and simply haven't had a chance. Or you might get cancer while working somewhere that isn't covered by FMLA (in the US, anyway) - and while you aren't likely to die, you also have no job and no insurance. On the contrary, you can pretty much pile on debt if you make enough money to make the monthly payments and never really be poor. Just indebted. Heck, this might even mean you qualify for loans easier in the future as long as you don't fall behind. The person that lives in their means cannot always find the same fate.
- happytoexplain 7y ago
  This is a common refrain from people who believe that nearly 100% of the cause of poverty is in avoidable mistakes committed by stupid people in whom complete fault lies and who therefore deserve it. To avoid misinterpretation, you should consider elaborating, since I doubt you're one of those people.
andonisus 7y ago
I've always thought it was unintended apathy. Making a (relatively) better choice will seemingly have no effect on lifting them out of poverty any time soon, so why bother? Do the thing that maximizes their pleasure, comfort, hope, etc. in the short term, because things are never going to change in the long term. This article seems to hint at this perspective when talking about not being able to take a break from poverty, but it never seems to make that leap.
- ericlewis 7y ago
  This is something I observe in family members.
- 52-6F-62 7y ago
  Absolutely. To extend upon that, the reasoning behind the short-term gratification isn't simply the inability to see the benefits of longer-term investment. It's also the need for relief in the short term. Negative impacts of that disposition can be compounding, and psychologically harmful without a break.
- ChuckNorris89 7y ago
  >No. Poverty is a lack of education and, more importantly, mentorship. Yep, you nailed it. A friend of mine was ranting on how the poor people(in Europe) spend their money on iPhones, cigars, alcohol and cable TV instead of saving it. Lately, I realized that poor people spend their money on those things since it's their way of short term escapism from feeling poor and if they were to save it, the amount would be too small to suddenly lift them out of poverty so they don't even bother. However, if poor people were clever, or had good mentorship, they would save that money and spend it on some courses in tech like sys-admin or getting certified as a professional plumber for example and get a better paying job, leading to a path out of poverty. Unfortunately, most popele don't have the will or the guidance to figure this out by themselves. Edit: Sorry, replied to the wrong parent
  - walkingolof 7y ago
    >Unfortunately, most popele don't have the will or the guidance to figure this out. That is an incredibly naive way of looking at the problem.
tommilukkarinen 7y ago
I think this applies to companies as well. Continuous economical stress starts to take unproductive attention such as focusing on finance instruments (funding) instead of revenue.
umvi 7y ago
> Poverty is not a lack of character – it’s a lack of cash. No. Poverty is a lack of education and, more importantly, mentorship. I am battling this right now with my next door neighbors, who use HOC, a Maryland social service that basically puts poor people in middle class neighborhoods by subsidizing rent. My neighbors have money. They spend it extremely poorly. It's a single mom with 2 kids. Both kids have iPhones, iPads, PS4s, cable TV, you name it. I'm constantly cleaning up scratch-offs and cigarette butts from the shared sidewalk. Yet they are also on food stamps (SNAP) and near the end of the month the 11 year old boy inevitably starts coming over to our house for snacks because they are out of food. Just recently he boasted that his mom is going to buy him a brand new $1500 gaming rig. I remarked that seemed quite expensive and wondered where the money would come from. "tax return" he replied non-chalantly. He also said once they got their tax return they would be going to Disneyland. I see this 11 year old boy on a trajectory for poverty. I've tried to help him with his math homework and with reading, but he is at a level far below his grade and seems to be constantly skipping school. He hates reading because his reading comprehension is low which means it will never improve because there are no adults in his life (other than me) trying to get him to read books. It's a viscious cycle. He has virtually no adult supervision or guidance (other than what I can offer when he occasionally comes over) because his single mom is always absent or in the hospital or sleeping or working or with boyfriend. It would require an insane amount of cash to make it so the single mom didn't have to work, and even then, she is uneducated, can't help her kids with their homework, doesn't see the value in school having not used it herself, doesn't know how to be a good parent, not having had them herself, etc. These kids need mentors more than they need cash. They need adults they can emulate who can help them break free from the viscious cycle.
- wufufufu 7y ago
  I agree, but I also think there's social cost to not spending your money on status symbols. You will be ostracized by the rich and educated groups for not fitting in, and then how will you acclimate to a higher social sphere? Example[1] [1] https://gizmodo.com/im-buying-an-iphone-because-im-ashamed-of-my-green-bubb-1787965756 https://gizmodo.com/im-buying-an-iphone-because-im-ashamed-o... edit: Ok this obviously isn't black and white, but I'm saying this should be considered among other things.
vearwhershuh 7y ago
People don't need cash. That's the easy way out for intellectuals. And they sure as shit don't need a casino in their town. They need social infrastructure (families, extended families, social institutions like churches and service organizations), cultural infrastructure, and economic opportunity within this stable social structure. All of which the intellectual class has been helping the financial elites destroy for the past century or more.
- metalliqaz 7y ago
  That's nonsense. The only sliver of truth might be the waning of the influence of churches, which I might add, are not particularly helpful to when they decide to shun the members of the community who need the most help. At least in my northern coastal state, there are lots and lots of family resources that were put in place as a result of the persistent work of the "intellectual class". Free library programs for all ages of children, free health education programs, and so on.
- happytoexplain 7y ago
  Where is this bitterness for such a generic category of people as "intellectuals" coming from? I totally agree with what you're saying except the blame of - who? All educated people? All smart people? (Unless you're using that word as a shorthand for something more specific that maybe I would agree with.)
- irpapakons 7y ago
  I don't know, as someone who grew up in a dysfunctional family, I feel like if your parents are not good parents you're basically screwed. You just have to wait until you're grown up and make that tech salary to pay your therapist for a long time. If there is neglect or abuse at home, it doesn't matter if there's some mildly positive neighbours / aunts / church people, I think it's hard for that to make a real difference.
  - vearwhershuh 7y ago
    Which is why you need extended family and social infrastructure, and cultural infrastructure, etc. as I mentioned. Nothing this side of heaven is perfect, of course.
fredgrott 7y ago
Poverty is not a lack of cash alone... Its a lack of cash, education-mentoring, and lack of good choices..ie no economic difference between all the bad choices before them
- erikerikson 7y ago
  + A lack of feeling okay + A lack of hope + A dearth of empirical evidence supporting the above
fma 7y ago
This article cites several research studies as well as the results of the casino in North Carolina and is a great read - and I hope people read it, digest it, and then comment (rather than comment based on the title). This is actually what presidential candidate Andrew Yang is trying to change. He calls this the "Scarcity mindset" and it doesn't just affect poor decisions, but also inability to think about things like climate change. This is why his proposal for Universal Basic Income of $1000 is believed to raise the poor's IQ by 13 points because having no money decrease your IQ by 13 points. https://www.inc.com/jessica-stillman/how-to-increase-your-iq-by-13-points-adopt-an-abundance-mindset.html https://www.inc.com/jessica-stillman/how-to-increase-your-iq... New Hampshire votes today for the Democrat primary...if you're in NH, you can change the country.
- Craighead 7y ago
  Yang just dropped out.
thsealienbstrds 7y ago
It seems to me that the amount of politics discussed on a platform is related to how popular that platform is. I like how in some technical IRC channels they just ban any political discussions outright. It seems to keep the channel on-topic even with thousands of users. Not saying HN should follow this course... but this thought crosses my mind sometimes. Sometimes there's too much political discussions on HN for my taste.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
hozae 7y ago
The one point that is sometimes missed is that in some pockets of poverty, those who are bettering themselves get mocked for it. It is strange mentality that requires betterment in isolation.
rurp 7y ago
This reminds me of a great Matt Levine article from last year where he discusses his rules for personal finance and mocks the usual cliche advice. """ The important rules of personal finance are: 1. Make a lot of money. (This one is key!) 2. Spend less than you make. 3. Don’t invest in scams. Meanwhile most actually available personal finance advice seems to come down to these considerably less helpful teachings 2 : 1. Don’t spend any money on coffee, food, cars or other nice things. 2. Compound interest! """ https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2019-04-29/elon-musk-gets-some-new-twitter-rules https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2019-04-29/elon-m...
- foogazi 7y ago
  Everyone glosses over making more money and assumes people are just fixed to their current situation in life
miguelmota 7y ago
A lot of people are poor because they trade education and learning for cheap short-term entertainment. People that remain poor aren't thinking about the long-term. They spend a ton of money on fast food, they do unneeded impulse purchases, they go for quick dopamine rushes and fall back into depression when it wears off. Many people get 'comfortable' in their low wage jobs complaining everyday how much they hate it, but when they go home they go straight to watching Netflix instead of improving their skills to make themselves more valuable. A lot of the time, poverty is a mindset.
SolaceQuantum 7y ago
I am totally open to the idea as espoused in the comments that poverty is not about money but about decisions and mentorship. Can I ask if anyone can actually point to any studies to highlight that? The linked article is very well sourced and I'd like to see sources that point to mentorship programs.
- rezistik 7y ago
  > Can anyone source articles that fit my specific viewpoint instead of the well sourced article that disagrees with my viewpoint? Is that what you're going for?
  - SolaceQuantum 7y ago
    No; the above article is well-sourced but the comments heavily disagree with it. I'd like for these comments to cite an equally sourced article so I, an undecided reader, can decide for myself what I find more compelling.
    - rezistik 7y ago
      Gotcha, that does seem fair.
anonsivalley652 7y ago
There's too often conflation and confusion surrounding two larger principles: a. The layers of beliefs that build on each other that lead to amplified productivity, wealth, success, popularity and such. b. that poverty isn't an innate quality or fate, but a prison of the mind most people get attached to and will defend. They can escape it if they so choose. a.) 1. Locus-of-control - Poor people exist in world where they are made to feel like criminals and everything is a zero sum game. So, it doesn't seem to matter about saving a dollar here or a dollar there. (External locus-of-control/learned helplessness). Contrast this with people who make a game, and get a thrill, out of buying something on closeout and getting to use a coupon on top of it. Costco: it's hard to get a poverty-oriented person excited about saving money at Costco 2. Saving - People who are poor don't choose to have high Marginal Propensity to Consume (MPC), they have unmet needs and emergencies all of the time. 3. Investing and ownership - People who don't have any savings and don't have internal locus-of-control can't conceive on multiplying money with money, so they can't really build balance sheet affluence. And if workers were rational, they would consider what profits they were giving away to their employers for a pittance, and take collective action to improve their lot or form another company (co-op's/worked-owned enterprises). Also, people in a poverty-mindset will often believe that lottery tickets, celebrity or special talents (magical thinking) are their "way out." b.) Poverty isn't strictly income or balance sheet, it begins with either elements of virtuous-cycle or self-defeating, vicious-cycle attitudes. When people believe a certain way or lack confidence, they continually sabotage themselves with every choice and missed opportunity in live. On the flip-side, continued wealth is never assured: people can convince themselves they are invincible, have infinite money and/or otherwise sabotage their cash cows like pissing-off their customers.

93 points by colinprince 7y ago

exposay 7y ago

And poor decisions make people poor.

i_haz_rabies 7y ago
You might want to clarify to what degree you consider this to be a cause of poverty in general, or else the downvotes are just gonna keep coming.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
tejtm 7y ago
Those poor decisions however need not be theirs.
- exposay 7y ago
  Yes.
- 0x4477 7y ago
  That may be so, but this idea does absolutely nothing to help someone get out of poverty. If you were born to financially illiterate parents and grow up poor or end up poor as a result, pointing to how it was stuff out of your control that made you poor will lead to nothing else but continuing to stay poor until you start doing things and making choices that lead you out of that situation. It sucks and isn't really fair, but the person best equipped to extract you from poverty is you. No one can make your choices for you, and you're far better off taking your life into your own hands and working to improve it than hoping that greater society will intervene on your behalf simply because your situation isn't favourable to you or because you're not entirely to blame for ending up in it.
Broken_Hippo 7y ago
That isn't entirely true, though. Your parents being poor often means you will be too simply because of the disadvantages it brings. Being a teacher is hardly a poor decision, but you will probably be poor because other people have decided it isn't worth it to pay you well. My ex has very little chance of being anything but poor, no matter the decisions he makes. He's on disability due to a mental disorder: Anyone that is on disability, especially at a young age (no matter reason), is in the same boat. The business you work at could close. Even if you made good enough decisions so far, you may or may not bounce back well. You might not have ever made enough money to be able to save 3 months worth of expenses, for example, and this is more likely if you are young and simply haven't had a chance. Or you might get cancer while working somewhere that isn't covered by FMLA (in the US, anyway) - and while you aren't likely to die, you also have no job and no insurance. On the contrary, you can pretty much pile on debt if you make enough money to make the monthly payments and never really be poor. Just indebted. Heck, this might even mean you qualify for loans easier in the future as long as you don't fall behind. The person that lives in their means cannot always find the same fate.
happytoexplain 7y ago
This is a common refrain from people who believe that nearly 100% of the cause of poverty is in avoidable mistakes committed by stupid people in whom complete fault lies and who therefore deserve it. To avoid misinterpretation, you should consider elaborating, since I doubt you're one of those people.

andonisus 7y ago

I've always thought it was unintended apathy. Making a (relatively) better choice will seemingly have no effect on lifting them out of poverty any time soon, so why bother? Do the thing that maximizes their pleasure, comfort, hope, etc. in the short term, because things are never going to change in the long term. This article seems to hint at this perspective when talking about not being able to take a break from poverty, but it never seems to make that leap.

ericlewis 7y ago
This is something I observe in family members.
52-6F-62 7y ago
Absolutely. To extend upon that, the reasoning behind the short-term gratification isn't simply the inability to see the benefits of longer-term investment. It's also the need for relief in the short term. Negative impacts of that disposition can be compounding, and psychologically harmful without a break.
ChuckNorris89 7y ago
>No. Poverty is a lack of education and, more importantly, mentorship. Yep, you nailed it. A friend of mine was ranting on how the poor people(in Europe) spend their money on iPhones, cigars, alcohol and cable TV instead of saving it. Lately, I realized that poor people spend their money on those things since it's their way of short term escapism from feeling poor and if they were to save it, the amount would be too small to suddenly lift them out of poverty so they don't even bother. However, if poor people were clever, or had good mentorship, they would save that money and spend it on some courses in tech like sys-admin or getting certified as a professional plumber for example and get a better paying job, leading to a path out of poverty. Unfortunately, most popele don't have the will or the guidance to figure this out by themselves. Edit: Sorry, replied to the wrong parent
- walkingolof 7y ago
  >Unfortunately, most popele don't have the will or the guidance to figure this out. That is an incredibly naive way of looking at the problem.

tommilukkarinen 7y ago

I think this applies to companies as well. Continuous economical stress starts to take unproductive attention such as focusing on finance instruments (funding) instead of revenue.

umvi 7y ago

> Poverty is not a lack of character – it’s a lack of cash. No. Poverty is a lack of education and, more importantly, mentorship. I am battling this right now with my next door neighbors, who use HOC, a Maryland social service that basically puts poor people in middle class neighborhoods by subsidizing rent. My neighbors have money. They spend it extremely poorly. It's a single mom with 2 kids. Both kids have iPhones, iPads, PS4s, cable TV, you name it. I'm constantly cleaning up scratch-offs and cigarette butts from the shared sidewalk. Yet they are also on food stamps (SNAP) and near the end of the month the 11 year old boy inevitably starts coming over to our house for snacks because they are out of food. Just recently he boasted that his mom is going to buy him a brand new $1500 gaming rig. I remarked that seemed quite expensive and wondered where the money would come from. "tax return" he replied non-chalantly. He also said once they got their tax return they would be going to Disneyland. I see this 11 year old boy on a trajectory for poverty. I've tried to help him with his math homework and with reading, but he is at a level far below his grade and seems to be constantly skipping school. He hates reading because his reading comprehension is low which means it will never improve because there are no adults in his life (other than me) trying to get him to read books. It's a viscious cycle. He has virtually no adult supervision or guidance (other than what I can offer when he occasionally comes over) because his single mom is always absent or in the hospital or sleeping or working or with boyfriend. It would require an insane amount of cash to make it so the single mom didn't have to work, and even then, she is uneducated, can't help her kids with their homework, doesn't see the value in school having not used it herself, doesn't know how to be a good parent, not having had them herself, etc. These kids need mentors more than they need cash. They need adults they can emulate who can help them break free from the viscious cycle.

wufufufu 7y ago
I agree, but I also think there's social cost to not spending your money on status symbols. You will be ostracized by the rich and educated groups for not fitting in, and then how will you acclimate to a higher social sphere? Example[1] [1] https://gizmodo.com/im-buying-an-iphone-because-im-ashamed-of-my-green-bubb-1787965756 https://gizmodo.com/im-buying-an-iphone-because-im-ashamed-o... edit: Ok this obviously isn't black and white, but I'm saying this should be considered among other things.

vearwhershuh 7y ago

People don't need cash. That's the easy way out for intellectuals. And they sure as shit don't need a casino in their town. They need social infrastructure (families, extended families, social institutions like churches and service organizations), cultural infrastructure, and economic opportunity within this stable social structure. All of which the intellectual class has been helping the financial elites destroy for the past century or more.

metalliqaz 7y ago
That's nonsense. The only sliver of truth might be the waning of the influence of churches, which I might add, are not particularly helpful to when they decide to shun the members of the community who need the most help. At least in my northern coastal state, there are lots and lots of family resources that were put in place as a result of the persistent work of the "intellectual class". Free library programs for all ages of children, free health education programs, and so on.
happytoexplain 7y ago
Where is this bitterness for such a generic category of people as "intellectuals" coming from? I totally agree with what you're saying except the blame of - who? All educated people? All smart people? (Unless you're using that word as a shorthand for something more specific that maybe I would agree with.)
irpapakons 7y ago
I don't know, as someone who grew up in a dysfunctional family, I feel like if your parents are not good parents you're basically screwed. You just have to wait until you're grown up and make that tech salary to pay your therapist for a long time. If there is neglect or abuse at home, it doesn't matter if there's some mildly positive neighbours / aunts / church people, I think it's hard for that to make a real difference.
- vearwhershuh 7y ago
  Which is why you need extended family and social infrastructure, and cultural infrastructure, etc. as I mentioned. Nothing this side of heaven is perfect, of course.

fredgrott 7y ago

Poverty is not a lack of cash alone... Its a lack of cash, education-mentoring, and lack of good choices..ie no economic difference between all the bad choices before them

erikerikson 7y ago
+ A lack of feeling okay + A lack of hope + A dearth of empirical evidence supporting the above

fma 7y ago

This article cites several research studies as well as the results of the casino in North Carolina and is a great read - and I hope people read it, digest it, and then comment (rather than comment based on the title). This is actually what presidential candidate Andrew Yang is trying to change. He calls this the "Scarcity mindset" and it doesn't just affect poor decisions, but also inability to think about things like climate change. This is why his proposal for Universal Basic Income of $1000 is believed to raise the poor's IQ by 13 points because having no money decrease your IQ by 13 points. https://www.inc.com/jessica-stillman/how-to-increase-your-iq-by-13-points-adopt-an-abundance-mindset.html https://www.inc.com/jessica-stillman/how-to-increase-your-iq... New Hampshire votes today for the Democrat primary...if you're in NH, you can change the country.

Craighead 7y ago
Yang just dropped out.

thsealienbstrds 7y ago

It seems to me that the amount of politics discussed on a platform is related to how popular that platform is. I like how in some technical IRC channels they just ban any political discussions outright. It seems to keep the channel on-topic even with thousands of users. Not saying HN should follow this course... but this thought crosses my mind sometimes. Sometimes there's too much political discussions on HN for my taste.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

hozae 7y ago

The one point that is sometimes missed is that in some pockets of poverty, those who are bettering themselves get mocked for it. It is strange mentality that requires betterment in isolation.

rurp 7y ago

This reminds me of a great Matt Levine article from last year where he discusses his rules for personal finance and mocks the usual cliche advice. """ The important rules of personal finance are: 1. Make a lot of money. (This one is key!) 2. Spend less than you make. 3. Don’t invest in scams. Meanwhile most actually available personal finance advice seems to come down to these considerably less helpful teachings 2 : 1. Don’t spend any money on coffee, food, cars or other nice things. 2. Compound interest! """ https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2019-04-29/elon-musk-gets-some-new-twitter-rules https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2019-04-29/elon-m...

foogazi 7y ago
Everyone glosses over making more money and assumes people are just fixed to their current situation in life

miguelmota 7y ago

A lot of people are poor because they trade education and learning for cheap short-term entertainment. People that remain poor aren't thinking about the long-term. They spend a ton of money on fast food, they do unneeded impulse purchases, they go for quick dopamine rushes and fall back into depression when it wears off. Many people get 'comfortable' in their low wage jobs complaining everyday how much they hate it, but when they go home they go straight to watching Netflix instead of improving their skills to make themselves more valuable. A lot of the time, poverty is a mindset.

SolaceQuantum 7y ago

I am totally open to the idea as espoused in the comments that poverty is not about money but about decisions and mentorship. Can I ask if anyone can actually point to any studies to highlight that? The linked article is very well sourced and I'd like to see sources that point to mentorship programs.

rezistik 7y ago
> Can anyone source articles that fit my specific viewpoint instead of the well sourced article that disagrees with my viewpoint? Is that what you're going for?
- SolaceQuantum 7y ago
  No; the above article is well-sourced but the comments heavily disagree with it. I'd like for these comments to cite an equally sourced article so I, an undecided reader, can decide for myself what I find more compelling.
  - rezistik 7y ago
    Gotcha, that does seem fair.

anonsivalley652 7y ago

There's too often conflation and confusion surrounding two larger principles: a. The layers of beliefs that build on each other that lead to amplified productivity, wealth, success, popularity and such. b. that poverty isn't an innate quality or fate, but a prison of the mind most people get attached to and will defend. They can escape it if they so choose. a.) 1. Locus-of-control - Poor people exist in world where they are made to feel like criminals and everything is a zero sum game. So, it doesn't seem to matter about saving a dollar here or a dollar there. (External locus-of-control/learned helplessness). Contrast this with people who make a game, and get a thrill, out of buying something on closeout and getting to use a coupon on top of it. Costco: it's hard to get a poverty-oriented person excited about saving money at Costco 2. Saving - People who are poor don't choose to have high Marginal Propensity to Consume (MPC), they have unmet needs and emergencies all of the time. 3. Investing and ownership - People who don't have any savings and don't have internal locus-of-control can't conceive on multiplying money with money, so they can't really build balance sheet affluence. And if workers were rational, they would consider what profits they were giving away to their employers for a pittance, and take collective action to improve their lot or form another company (co-op's/worked-owned enterprises). Also, people in a poverty-mindset will often believe that lottery tickets, celebrity or special talents (magical thinking) are their "way out." b.) Poverty isn't strictly income or balance sheet, it begins with either elements of virtuous-cycle or self-defeating, vicious-cycle attitudes. When people believe a certain way or lack confidence, they continually sabotage themselves with every choice and missed opportunity in live. On the flip-side, continued wealth is never assured: people can convince themselves they are invincible, have infinite money and/or otherwise sabotage their cash cows like pissing-off their customers.